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HeavenLord wrote:
Hi, what do you think of this 1000 pts ironstorm list ? (with new points)

- Techmarine with Adept of the Omnissiah
- Lt with combi weapon with Master of Machine War
- 5 Intercessors
- 3 Eliminators (las fusils and instigator)
- 3 Eliminators (snipers and instigator)
- Dreadnough Ballistus
- Galdiator Lancer
- 5 terminators (with ML)
- 3 Inceptos with plasma pistols

Thanks !

That confused me when I first saw it as I thought "Master of Machine War" was another Techmarine only but looking at the screen shot online it is not! Is the combi-LT just for the wound rerolls?

I was looking at running three Ballistus Dreadnough in a 1000 point list but then I lack a Lancer kit. Eliminators do look a good replacement for the old Sniper Scouts.

80 Techmarine Adept of the Omnissiah
85 Intercessors/Infernus Squad 1x5
110 Scouts 2x5
185 Terminators 1x5
420 Ballistus Dreadnought 3x1
120 Devastators (Quad Lascannon)

For Techmarines, do you guys think it's best to just run them near vehicles for Lone Operative, or to have them with an escort of Intercessors or whatever?

Fun thing I did in my last match. Sorry, but with all the hate being tossed at Reivers, I decided to have a go with them myself just to see how bad they could be.

So I dusted off my old Kill Team starter set Reivers and ran them with carbines, the grapnel, and the grav-chute alongside a Phobos LT. They were...


..surprisingly my MVP in that match. The combo of lethal hits and precision on a deep strike unit that can shoot and move after landing turned them into a surprisingly effective assassin squad.

Might have rolled hot, might have gotten lucky with the matchup or my opponent, so I'm thinking this is probably a flash in the pan. But my dudes, it was fun, and that's what this is all about.

Lemondish wrote:
Fun thing I did in my last match. Sorry, but with all the hate being tossed at Reivers, I decided to have a go with them myself just to see how bad they could be.

So I dusted off my old Kill Team starter set Reivers and ran them with carbines, the grapnel, and the grav-chute alongside a Phobos LT. They were...


..surprisingly my MVP in that match. The combo of lethal hits and precision on a deep strike unit that can shoot and move after landing turned them into a surprisingly effective assassin squad.

Might have rolled hot, might have gotten lucky with the matchup or my opponent, so I'm thinking this is probably a flash in the pan. But my dudes, it was fun, and that's what this is all about.

Who were you fighting?

My son used a squad in our crusade games in 9th, so a not valid for 10th discussion, but illustrates a point. We tend to mathhammer around MEQ, as they are the most common profile. But when I was playing my ‘Nids? His reivers did unseemly things to my hordes of gribbles. Even after loosing a few casualties, they were ripping apart gaunts like it was going out of style.

You could argue that so can 90% of the marine book, and not be wrong. But still. They did their job. And looked cool and had fun. (even if overpriced)

 Nevelon wrote:


Who were you fighting?

My son used a squad in our crusade games in 9th, so a not valid for 10th discussion, but illustrates a point. We tend to mathhammer around MEQ, as they are the most common profile. But when I was playing my ‘Nids? His reivers did unseemly things to my hordes of gribbles. Even after loosing a few casualties, they were ripping apart gaunts like it was going out of style.

You could argue that so can 90% of the marine book, and not be wrong. But still. They did their job. And looked cool and had fun. (even if overpriced)

A friendly casual TS player who just got her first 2k list together. I lost the match on objectives, but it certainly wasn't because of the Reivers. I decided to mathhammer it and I definitely rolled hot here, and she rolled poorly for saves compared to the average, but they spent 4 turns causing havoc with move blocking and taking out three sorcs for me.

Was a fun match, and I'm by no means saying they're worth it, but holy throne! The expectation and outcome on their performance could not have been further apart, so it was a blast. Anybody looking for efficient picks for the points should probably not go anywhere near them, but I'm now convinced I need to try units folks have poor general opinion of just for fun. Next up, I've got a couple bunkers and firestrikes to finish and throw down in an anvil Siege force lol.

What are some other hopeless causes y'all got?

Still trying to decide on which detachment I plan on doing. Looking for advice on what would be best for this 1k list.

Captain in Terminator armor /w Relic Fist
Libby in Terminator Armor
5x Term /w AsCan 2x Chainfist
5x Term /w AsCan 2x Chainfist
Ballistus Dread
Ballistus Dread
Ballistus Dread

Should be like exactly 1k after taking an Enhancement on each character depending on which Detachment I go with.

I am currently leaning mostly towards the Raven Guard themed one.

I haven't played since 6th. So this is my intro back into 40k. I plan to transition into Deathwing once they get updated.

 Rogzor87 wrote:
Still trying to decide on which detachment I plan on doing. Looking for advice on what would be best for this 1k list.

Captain in Terminator armor /w Relic Fist
Libby in Terminator Armor
5x Term /w AsCan 2x Chainfist
5x Term /w AsCan 2x Chainfist
Ballistus Dread
Ballistus Dread
Ballistus Dread

Should be like exactly 1k after taking an Enhancement on each character depending on which Detachment I go with.

I am currently leaning mostly towards the Raven Guard themed one.

I haven't played since 6th. So this is my intro back into 40k. I plan to transition into Deathwing once they get updated.

It's a decent place to start, though light on models. You likely picked the right detachment - the infiltrate enhancement on a terminator brick can threaten a turn 1 charge, not that you should necessarily do so, because going in with just 1 squad would be dividing and conquering your own force.

You're likely to face two problems: 'no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy' and secondaries.
No battle plan: Your list does what it does, but it isn't simultaneously built to stop an opponent from doing what they want to do. A variety of opposing lists could provide a hard counter and with just 5 units, you're going to have trouble screening your opponent out of doing what they want to do or getting where they want to be.
Secondaries: In 10th edition, you need to be able to spare a unit or two per turn to go where they're needed or take an action. Your list lacks speed, maneuverability, and units you don't mind wasting every turn.

I would drop the librarian and maybe 1 dreadnought for 'action monkeys', small cheap units which can get to where they need to be and which you won't mind wasting their shooting on an action. Scout squads look great at that. Or the lone operative lieutenant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, after a 5-2 online tournament record (1 loss was against 2 pre-nerf wraithknights) with a game for 1st place coming up next week, I have enough confidence to go out on a few limbs. These are hot takes not immediately backed by math, take 'em or leave 'em.

At the current points cost, I love the new scout squads. With both infiltrate and scout, you can threaten a turn 1 charge in multiple places or screen out against enemy scouts/infiltrators before pulling back or pushing in. 1 is an auto-include. 3 is a valid choice.

I think that the most success will come from the Gladius detachment at first. For one thing it's familiar to users. The other detachments also all suffer terribly from not being a Gladius.
Raven Guard -1 to hit sounds good, but the shootiest armies often have access to +1 to hit and rerolling hits (Tau) or good ballistic skill to start with. You're better off relying on your armor.
Iron hands looks tough as nails, but incentivizes a low model count, low shot count army that will struggle to score and has one trick: dreads up the middle.
A lot of folks think Salamanders looks good and it does. Permanent dev doctrine is great especially for actions. But there are several missing pieces that make me uncomfortable. You want to get within 12", but there's No fall-back-and-shoot mechanic. +1S so rarely translates into +1 to wound. The strats all look great, especially the shoot-back and flamer mortals one, but there's no way of boosting AP short of the 2CP flamer strat. So do we bring the godawful hailstrike? Ignore modifiers is a great enhancement, but without bolter discipline your key unit is doing a LOT less damage to begin with, and this is no boost when your boosted unit needs to target something that doesn't have modifiers.

When your eradicators get tied up in melee, your transports are being shot at only by units outside of their contents' range or which they're not designed to shoot (or they target the empty ones), your aggressors still wound T6 on 5s (and your eradicators still wound big bugs/beasts on 5s) and you eschewed long range shooting for such non-boosts, and then your opponent still makes 2+ saves, and you face 2 out of 3 opponents where forged in battle has no effect, you will miss tactical doctrine, storm of fire and bolter discipline.

One note on fire discipline: it is still incredibly strong, since it doesn't rely on rerolling wounds, just hits. Since aggressors partially reroll wounds I think it'll still be popular there, though I like it on a LT with hellblasters. Since LTs got cheaper, I actually save points there.

So what I'm reading here is that you think the hailstrike is awful...

Going in my list alongside the other unwanted toys next match hehehe

Lemondish wrote:
So what I'm reading here is that you think the hailstrike is awful...

Going in my list alongside the other unwanted toys next match hehehe

The hailstrike provides basically 15-20 boltgun shots plus ~1 MW. Given its ability, you want to target something with good armor. Given its armament, its firepower will be wasted on that target.

That said, OK, let's see how I'd work the hailstrike into a list. Well, I'd want to take a couple of units alongside it with firepower but not enough AP. Grav cannon devastators and aggressors come to mind. But in most situations I feel like the hammerstrike will be more than 20 points more useful.

Amusingly, I think the best Scout configuration might be to equip them with one of a bunch of different weapons -- I'm looking at potentially fielding Scout squads with:

1x Scout with bolter (best basic weapon in a vacuum)

1x Scout with shotgun (worse than bolter but grants Assault for doing "actions" after advancing, important for some objectives)

1x Scout with sniper rifle (can only take one but it's strong)

1x Scout with missile launcher (can only take one but it's strong)

1x Scout Sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword (only available melee option but helps against light units in melee)

It seems possible the Sergeant should instead have a bolter, but at present I tend to think the "one of everything" option seems like it might be the best bet, which is sort of crazy!

The problem with the Hailstrike is basically the same as Reivers, it isn't bad when compared to other similar units from other factions, it just competes with the enormous marine roster and ends up being one of the worst picks at it's job.

Looking at damage caused per point of unit when shooting into a typical T4/3+ save marine profile (lower = better) to give a rough anti infantry ranking:
Inceptors (bolters) - 13.75 points per damage
Suppressors - 17 ppd (stationery) // 22.7 ppd (moving)
Invader ATV (gatling) - 30.7 ppd
Impulsor (fragstorms and double stubbers) - 31.3 ppd
Hailstrike - 34.4 ppd

All of these units are close enough to the speeder on manoeuvrability (the Impulsor even has the same defensive profile), so really you are paying for the ability. As the ability has been nerfed in the new codex, it's hard to come up with a good idea for this one other than use magnets so you can play the other speeder types too.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

HeavenLord wrote:
Unit points should not just be compared through the damage output but also abilities and stats as OC

Points should also reflect unit upgrades and additional weaponry. That was my point.

The fact that two units can be near identical in points yet be so vastly different equipment is very stupid.

you make it sound like thats something new for this edition. You where around back long eneugh to remember the 130 pointed wraithknights in 7th edition. let's not pretend points in 40k where well written in earlier editions eaither.

Had a good game last night against the Vanguard Spearhead detachment, using my Greymanes w/ the Firestorm detachment. Being able to advance and shoot, on every unit? Great.

Here's my list - not sure as to points values rules on Dakka, but just to be safe, I've excised them.



I will say that the Intercessors+Lieutenant+Ancient combo is really good for sitting on an objective and freeing up my other units to do gak in the midfield. Though, I probably should've exploited sticky objectives to have them move off the point once they claimed it and put some rounds down-range. It was a lot of points (a fifth of my list) to just have a unit sit there.

Hellblasters are ridiculous - shooting on death, on average? Yes, please! I killed 3 Infiltrating Terminators with these suicidal nutcases.

 Insularum wrote:
The problem with the Hailstrike is basically the same as Reivers, it isn't bad when compared to other similar units from other factions, it just competes with the enormous marine roster and ends up being one of the worst picks at it's job.

Looking at damage caused per point of unit when shooting into a typical T4/3+ save marine profile (lower = better) to give a rough anti infantry ranking:
Inceptors (bolters) - 13.75 points per damage
Suppressors - 17 ppd (stationery) // 22.7 ppd (moving)
Invader ATV (gatling) - 30.7 ppd
Impulsor (fragstorms and double stubbers) - 31.3 ppd
Hailstrike - 34.4 ppd

All of these units are close enough to the speeder on manoeuvrability (the Impulsor even has the same defensive profile), so really you are paying for the ability. As the ability has been nerfed in the new codex, it's hard to come up with a good idea for this one other than use magnets so you can play the other speeder types too.

Sure, but on the flipside, gatling cannons are cool, so it's a wash

Thoughts on a Ghostweave Smashcap in Vanguard lists? Think it's worth 100pt?

Lemondish wrote:
Sure, but on the flipside, gatling cannons are cool, so it's a wash

Multi-Multi-Meltas are cooler (and also hotter!).

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

HeavenLord wrote:
Unit points should not just be compared through the damage output but also abilities and stats as OC

Points should also reflect unit upgrades and additional weaponry. That was my point.

The fact that two units can be near identical in points yet be so vastly different equipment is very stupid.

you make it sound like thats something new for this edition. You where around back long eneugh to remember the 130 pointed wraithknights in 7th edition. let's not pretend points in 40k where well written in earlier editions eaither.

That seems like a GW problem, not a pay-for-upgrades problem.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Sure, but on the flipside, gatling cannons are cool, so it's a wash

Multi-Multi-Meltas are cooler (and also hotter!).

You got me there! MMs are nice, especially fancy bespoke ones

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Thoughts on a Ghostweave Smashcap in Vanguard lists? Think it's worth 100pt?

Yes, but not necessarily for the reason you think. That free strat per turn can be used to sticky your home objective, especially vs. lists without the maneuverability to reach it easily. He can also move fast and hide in small corners, and so screen the rest of your army against deep strike pretty effectively. He can go on and do smashy things, too. Does he have the grenades key word? That'd be nice.

A related thought, though it'll take time to get to the point: What's the best screening unit available to us? Infiltrators? Wrong. For 100 points they have zero damage output, can't move quickly to where they're needed, and either rapid ingress or just plain deploying on the field and moving fast (with Thunderwolf cavalry, say) renders them pretty moot. Scouts? Possibly. Similar vulnerability to infiltrators, but you get twice as many and they're more maneuverable which helps a lot.

My choice? The land raider redeemer. For its absolutely brutal overwatch. Just because you don't think of a unit as built or priced to do mission X on the battlefield doesn't mean it can't. Same with the ghostweave smashcap. And what's replacing my now legendary bikes as a skirmish piece for touching objectives early? Believe it or not, likely a razorback.

 Kingsley wrote:
Amusingly, I think the best Scout configuration might be to equip them with one of a bunch of different weapons -- I'm looking at potentially fielding Scout squads with:

1x Scout with bolter (best basic weapon in a vacuum)

1x Scout with shotgun (worse than bolter but grants Assault for doing "actions" after advancing, important for some objectives)

1x Scout with sniper rifle (can only take one but it's strong)

1x Scout with missile launcher (can only take one but it's strong)

1x Scout Sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword (only available melee option but helps against light units in melee)

It seems possible the Sergeant should instead have a bolter, but at present I tend to think the "one of everything" option seems like it might be the best bet, which is sort of crazy!

I wholeheartedly endorse this loadout. A great unit. My codex arrives tomorrow and I'm fielding some for sure.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Had a good game last night against the Vanguard Spearhead detachment, using my Greymanes w/ the Firestorm detachment. Being able to advance and shoot, on every unit? Great.

...

Hellblasters are ridiculous - shooting on death, on average? Yes, please! I killed 3 Infiltrating Terminators with these suicidal nutcases.

Agree on both counts. Re: the firestorm detachment's greatness, I want to try a black templars list with 6 5-man crusader squads, mostly with a multimelta, a plasma gun, a power fist and 2 chainswords. Their ability to reroll their advances meshes perfectly with the firestorm's bonuses, and the cheapest marine bodies anywhere. Open up the death guard index and compare to plague marines. In firestorm, pretty much a flat out upgrade to the attack bikes I used to field and miss already.

To the 2nd point, I won my online tournament largely on the strength of hellblasters. In the title game turn 1, I used a librarian dreadnought to teleport hellblasters with a bolter discipline lieutenant (the tourney rules were set before the new codex) into Magnus range and flattened him with oath. My opponent brought over 2 big rubric squads to take them out. The first squad almost finished them off themselves, but that just meant that the 2nd squad was mostly dead before they had a chance to shoot, and when all was said and done he didn't have much firepower for anything beyond the hellblasters. The unit is so strong (and doesn't require stratagem support unlike aggressors) that my main list is likely to remain Gladius for bolter discipline.

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

HeavenLord wrote:
Unit points should not just be compared through the damage output but also abilities and stats as OC

Points should also reflect unit upgrades and additional weaponry. That was my point.

The fact that two units can be near identical in points yet be so vastly different equipment is very stupid.

you make it sound like thats something new for this edition. You where around back long eneugh to remember the 130 pointed wraithknights in 7th edition. let's not pretend points in 40k where well written in earlier editions eaither.

I feel like GW point costs takes defensive profiles as the baseline for points costs, not offensive output. Think of the original cost of desolation marines. It takes them a while to adjust to realize that offensive output matters at least as much.

Speaking of which, GW has a problem in that their anti-infantry options aren't as good at taking down infantry as their semi-anti-tank options, meaning there's almost never a reason to take a dakka choice over an armor piercing choice. Consider a choice of wargear when facing a squad of Beast Snagga Boyz: 110 points of Aggressors, deemed the anti-light-infantry option, or 120 points of plasma cannon devastators. The plasma cannon devastators win even if they moved, ~5 kills to ~3.
Against T5, S8 matters. Against a 5+ save plus cover, AP3 matters. Against 1W models with a 5+FNP, D2 matters. (And the extra range helps a lot too.) Please don't think I'm saying aggressors are bad, I field them and like them. Especially their power fists. I'm saying that anyone relying on their bolters to be anti-infantry is probably making a mistake.

One of these days, I'll field heavy intercessors. But it won't be for their damage output. It'll be because by turn 3-4, an opponent will have real trouble tearing them off a point they're holding. I'm entirely disinterested in regular intercessors.

Hello,

What do you think about my Gladius TAC lists (1000 and 2000 points) ?

Thank you for your help !

List 1k :

- Biologis with fire discipline + 6 aggressors in a land raider redeemer
- Lt with combi weapon
- Dreadnought Redemptor
- 3 inceptors (plasma)
- 5 scouts

List 2k :
- Marneus Calgar + Biologis with fire discipline + 6 aggressors in deepstrike
- Uriel Ventris + 10 assault intercessors in a Land raider redeemer
- Phobos librarian + 5 infiltrators
- Lt with combi weapon
- 5 intercessors
- Dreadnought Ballistus
- Dreadnought Redemptor
- Gladiator Lancer
- 3 inceptors (plasma)
- 3 eliminators (sniper rifle)

HeavenLord wrote:
Hello,

What do you think about my Gladius TAC lists (1000 and 2000 points) ?

Thank you for your help !

I like the first list, though the lack of true anti-tank strength in shooting, especially after the oath nerf, makes me nervous. How do you kill a land raider or a redemptor dread? I guess you charge it with your own redemptor. OK. The list has LOTS of good things: In a 1K game, the redeemer with armor of contempt and overwatching will win games. The maneuver package (scouts, inceptors) is very good. The aggressor squad complements the rest, providing a melee element and great firepower.

I like the 2nd list less. I think the infiltrators are overpriced to begin with, especially now GSC is nerfed. Given their damage output is nil, your opponents have better targets than them to shoot at. Rapid ingress will still put them in charge range. I really don't like intercessors. Between those two units, you are paying a lot of points for nil damage output and very little maneuverability. Then there are the assault intercessors, also with bolter-esque attacks. All those points dedicated to S4AP1 makes me very uncomfortable. You start with Marneus Calgar off the battlefield, so you miss out on his CP ability for 2 turns unless you're going 2nd and use rapid ingress. I feel like it also means you aren't taking full advantage of his other rule.

I'd be very nervous facing Orks with this. A bunch of cheap trukks with a variety of deadly things inside and riding alongside would be one bad matchup. The iron hands detachment would be a serious problem. You have just 2 units which can touch a land raider in cover with armor of contempt: The lancer and Calgar's squad.

For comparison in terms of anti-tank and anti-heavy infantry, here's my likely 2K list for my first in-person tourney:


All the firepower tools, the buffers to put them over the top and the dreadnought to get them wherever they need to be.
Advice? Commentary? OK, Lemondish, tear it apart. :-)

There's nothing to tear apart, it's beautiful.

Lets just go through some of my favourites instead:

Lieutenant, fire discipline, 10 Hellblasters

Everybody loves Aggressors with the Biologis carrying Fire Discipline, but I've always been driven by the plasma deep down and it's never not been fun. I'm a huge fan of ferrying them in a Repulsor for the escape, but that's just because I lack much in my collection to put the points elsewhere.

Gravcan devs (this is the squad I'm iffiest about)

I think I agree (on the iffyness), but only because it ends up being one of those super niche loadouts that I feel outperforms everything else in your arsenal in some specific match-ups but then falls off quickly in others. Just a feeling, though.

Scouts
Scouts

2x Scouts are like a mainstay in my lists these days after the points drops. I think they'll be in everyone's lists, if I'm being honest. I used to sing the Infiltrator praises, but these guys are just way better at doing the thing I wanted the Infiltrators to do, and there's twice as many units so they feel like they're in two places at once in comparison.

Incursors
Thunderstrike

Their bonuses are such great force multipliers.

Librarian dreadnought

This guy is so good for getting something where you want it that I'm seriously thinking of getting one to fit into my lists even though I don't have a BA army.

How are you feeling about the new Lt. with Combi-weapon ability? I've been toying with him and it seems like an auto-include with how much it helps bring back some (very little) of the lost power from Oaths, but I'm also considering shifting the points elsewhere. Have you played with him at all?

What do people think of my 2000 point gladius list? 3 ballistus and heavy interscessors bolter disiplinen bomb for long range. Thunder wolves and redemptors dreadnoughts as close range threats.

There are two things I am unsure about:

1. Wolf guard battleader on Thunderwolf. Lethal hits feel a bit redundant for the 90 points. He and one unit of fenrisian wolves could probably be another unit to hold objectives.

2. Should I give the redemptors plasma or gattling assault cannon.

Would it be dumb to put a Judiciar, 6 Bladeguard and 5 Infernus Marines in the same Land Raider?

Lemondish wrote:


There's nothing to tear apart, it's beautiful.

Gravcan devs (this is the squad I'm iffiest about)

I think I agree (on the iffyness), but only because it ends up being one of those super niche loadouts that I feel outperforms everything else in your arsenal in some specific match-ups but then falls off quickly in others. Just a feeling, though.
How are you feeling about the new Lt. with Combi-weapon ability? I've been toying with him and it seems like an auto-include with how much it helps bring back some (very little) of the lost power from Oaths, but I'm also considering shifting the points elsewhere. Have you played with him at all?

Thanks, Lemondish!

Let's talk about the gravcannon devs. Just anti-tank? Consider them buffed by my buffers, with oath and storm of fire, shooting at terminators. A literally perfect profile, especially if I've baited my opponent into using armor of contempt elsewhere or its been vected or they're a faction (TSons, death guard) without access to armor of contempt. Or target Ork nobz with the 5++ from Waagh. Or Lychguard. Anything T5-6 with many wounds or FNP or an invul save not far behind its regular save.

I don't think I own a lt. with combi, and while I can see it making a difference, I'm still not sold on it. Rerolling 1s is a feel-good, but a smart opponent might be able to play around it, targeting other objectives to hold with maximum force. Rerolling 1s to wound vs. an opponent's single scout squad or rhino or tetras or squighog boyz just doesn't feel like it is worth the points. Since rerolling 1s increases firepower by one sixth, he needs to buff an average of 6 times his value each turn in points of your firepower to earn his points back that way.
Now that's not all he does, having a lone op to hold the home objective is great, but I think that my list specifically doesn't need this guy.
My callidus does that on the early turns, and once the battlefield is sparser and he heads out to stalk a target, my libby dread is usually still near home, tired after a busy day slinging squads about. If he isn't, a scout squad could zip over to help. I picture them spending most of their time in safe areas screening against deep strikers, not getting themselves killed.

Nilai, I'll see if I can have a look at your list later.

The Lieutenant w/ Combi is a force multiplier. Improving the chance to wound is a major benefit and it then also makes the opponent either more vulnerable on that objective or forces them not to invest in it. Both are a win.

Also, though not a benefit for everyone, the Shadow War Vet on that Lieutenant is also solid. Basically replacing the need for a Callidus. This is where I think it goes from decent include to auto-include.

Celerior wrote:
I don't think I own a lt. with combi, and while I can see it making a difference, I'm still not sold on it. Rerolling 1s is a feel-good, but a smart opponent might be able to play around it, targeting other objectives to hold with maximum force.

I'd say there's decent value in that, especially if you're shrewd in your selection of which objective you encourage them to fully ignore/leave mostly undefended. All part of the mind game behind the game, no? I'm drawn to that, but also aware that it's often to the detriment of my force's points efficiency. I mean, I'm experimenting with Hailstrikes, Reivers, and Bunkers for throne's sake.

In any case, since you can toss things around the board willy-nilly, having them already make room for you is a plus, I'd say. Real hard to math out that value, though.

The Callidus' ability to bop about the field with lone op (combined with decent damage output) is what makes it a scoring monster. Vect is icing on the cake. Combining shadow war vet with the combi lieutenant gives you a lone op with vect, but not the key mobility (and damage output) which makes the Callidus still uniquely built to score lots of points.

I'm not saying the combi-lieut is a bad unit. But I'm willing to go against conventional wisdom (Art Of War for one) and say he's not an auto-include. I think he's being overvalued because he has the rare lone op ability and provides some wound rerolls in a codex that just lost our best source of both of those, in the oath nerf and legendary sniper scouts.

I think that with this codex drop, marines got worse overall. The new detachments, questionable as upgrades, don't make up for the loss of oath wound rerolls and the legends cull.
Vanguard, Ironstorm and Firestorm have legs, but
1) Firestorm will miss tactical doctrine, attack bikes, and storm of fire.
2) Ironstorm will have trouble with secondaries, large model count foes, T-Sons specifically, OC and CP (captains can't attach to vehicles).
3) Vanguard makes a good case. I think a smart vanguard list might do well. But go back and reread Gladius to get a sense of all the things you won't be able to do anymore. I have a feeling you'll miss 'honor the chapter' & fire discipline as well as all 3 doctrines.

Bjorn the Fell Handed has this ability too; so SW using the Vanguard Detachment with the LT & a Callidus could get 3 "Vect's". Lol!

For s&giggles, what potential strats would be the best uses?

1. CP reroll
2. ?
3. ?

Celerior wrote:
The Callidus' ability to bop about the field with lone op (combined with decent damage output) is what makes it a scoring monster. Vect is icing on the cake. Combining shadow war vet with the combi lieutenant gives you a lone op with vect, but not the key mobility (and damage output) which makes the Callidus still uniquely built to score lots of points.

Oh yes, if you have to decide between the two of them, I suppose you have to go with the assassin.

Sadly, it's been out of stock for forever, so Lt. with combi acting as "Callidus at home" by bringing part of the bucket of utility is totally valid.

I fear I've never gathered the collection necessary to play these wider imperium armies. Always just been Marines in my Marine collection lol