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 LunarSol wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I'm convinced Primaris were just going to be the new Marine models and then someone in Head Office said "wait why don't we release them alongside".

So suddenly Marines wound up with 2 armies with the exact same design ethos right next to each other in the same army. It was indeed super messy

From my understanding this was the plan until the rejection of Age of Sigmar convinced someone they needed to promote them in a way that emphasized that they weren't invalidating existing armies.

What rejection? AoS has done extremely well. There was negativity online, and occasionally those hateful voices can make themselves seem far louder than they really are, but nobody really takes that sort of thing seriously, surely?

 CaulynDarr wrote:

MrHobbles wrote:
I always wondered if GW would do something like this. Seems like they're looking to further differentiate HH from 40K era's by having the Astartes actually look like they've changed a bit over the 10,000 years. Some new tech, and not just riding around in retrofitted Rhinos and Land Raiders. And now that firstborn isn't a thing, with only Primaris, the Marines themselves having changed and become more powerful.

That's supposed to be how the setting works. The imperium is stagnating and crumbling. Technology is lost. The whole Primaris story line never worked for me for that reason.

A thousand times this, but somebody suddenly decided that the setting wasn't enough and they had to advance the timeline / story and its all been downhill ever since. They lost the grimdark in favour of chasing sales from kids.


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 ekwatts wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I'm convinced Primaris were just going to be the new Marine models and then someone in Head Office said "wait why don't we release them alongside".

So suddenly Marines wound up with 2 armies with the exact same design ethos right next to each other in the same army. It was indeed super messy

From my understanding this was the plan until the rejection of Age of Sigmar convinced someone they needed to promote them in a way that emphasized that they weren't invalidating existing armies.

What rejection? AoS has done extremely well. There was negativity online, and occasionally those hateful voices can make themselves seem far louder than they really are, but nobody really takes that sort of thing seriously, surely?

Were you around when AoS dropped? It was dead on arrival, a barely functional game that sacrificed the old world to exist. It bombing worse than a modern disney film was the cause of major changes to the plan for the reboot of 40k.

It would have been wrong to do this 6 years ago when they released the first Primaris with their strange units. Since they now have some proper replacements/ resculpts for classic Marines it's okay. Yes, Redemptors are ugly compared to the old Dreads and I dislike almost all Primaris helmets, but I also dislike all of these tentacles on my Plague Marines and don’t expect GW to still sell me the older Metal Plague Marines. In a way Marines get treated finally like every other army.
Primaris were a dumb idea in the first place, they should have just upscaled Marines like they properly did with CSM.

MrHobbles wrote:
I always wondered if GW would do something like this. Seems like they're looking to further differentiate HH from 40K era's by having the Astartes actually look like they've changed a bit over the 10,000 years. Some new tech, and not just riding around in retrofitted Rhinos and Land Raiders. And now that firstborn isn't a thing, with only Primaris, the Marines themselves having changed and become more powerful.

I mostly wondered when, not if.

The Space Marine models were in desperate need of a refresh but GW were too chicken to just update them properly and instead wanted to gradually phase them out.

No GW wanted a fully trademarkable name for their soldier. They couldn't trademark Space Marines. So Primaris became a thing

Sunno wrote:

The Space Marine models were in desperate need of a refresh but GW were too chicken to just update them properly and instead wanted to gradually phase them out.

No GW wanted a fully trademarkable name for their soldier. They couldn't trademark Space Marines. So Primaris became a thing

...they did trademark Adeptus Astartes, so there was no real need whatsoever?

 Galas wrote:
We were called madmen.

But those of US that called for a SM purge in 10th were sadly right.


Wheres Irbis now?

I knew it too but the GW fanboys didn´t want to hear it.

 Albertorius wrote:
...they did trademark Adeptus Astartes, so there was no real need whatsoever?

Space Marines have been the face of the company for decades. Unlike "Astra Militarum", you can't just change Space Marines to Adeptus Astartes and have that as your main brand.

"Adep... Adepti... what are they?"
"Space Marines."
"Oh, right. Why didn't you just say that?"

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
...they did trademark Adeptus Astartes, so there was no real need whatsoever?

Space Marines have been the face of the company for decades. Unlike "Astra Militarum", you can't just change Space Marines to Adeptus Astartes and have that as your main brand.

"Adep... Adepti... what are they?"
"Space Marines."
"Oh, right. Why didn't you just say that?"

Astra Miliwhat?! You are in the Guard, son.

Sunno wrote:

The Space Marine models were in desperate need of a refresh but GW were too chicken to just update them properly and instead wanted to gradually phase them out.

No GW wanted a fully trademarkable name for their soldier. They couldn't trademark Space Marines. So Primaris became a thing

If that was true - which it obviously isn't - They wouldn't have Codex: Space Marines, containing a bajillion uses of 'Space Marine' throughout.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Sunno wrote:

The Space Marine models were in desperate need of a refresh but GW were too chicken to just update them properly and instead wanted to gradually phase them out.

No GW wanted a fully trademarkable name for their soldier. They couldn't trademark Space Marines. So Primaris became a thing

If that was true - which it obviously isn't - They wouldn't have Codex: Space Marines, containing a bajillion uses of 'Space Marine' throughout.

And even if it were true they didn't need a new model to trademark the name, they can just rename things

I just ordered a couple of landspeeders and trikes to complete my SM collection. My SM will be fine.

So in essence I acted the same way as when the Old World died. I bought the remaining Dark Elf boxes for my collection and said goodbye. I won´t spend a dime on AoS and I won´t rebuy my entire SM force in Primaris style.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
...they did trademark Adeptus Astartes, so there was no real need whatsoever?

Space Marines have been the face of the company for decades. Unlike "Astra Militarum", you can't just change Space Marines to Adeptus Astartes and have that as your main brand.

"Adep... Adepti... what are they?"
"Space Marines."
"Oh, right. Why didn't you just say that?"

I mean, it's not like "primaris" would be any better in that regard, which is what I was answering to.

 Tamereth wrote:

Were you around when AoS dropped? It was dead on arrival, a barely functional game that sacrificed the old world to exist. It bombing worse than a modern disney film was the cause of major changes to the plan for the reboot of 40k.

Did AoS 0.0 not do the numbers GW expected it to be? Yes. Did it do better than WHFB? Yes.

WHFB was in a really dire place when AoS dropped and I don't think a lot of people realize that. I remember some previous dev talking about WHFB terrain selling better than the armies in WHFB.

After AoS 1.0 dropped it started to pick up and is now a sizable game.

AoS tanked until the General's Handbook started to fix things.

 vadersson wrote:
Of all these the loss of Assault Marines amazes me. Assault, Devastator, Tactical squads is the core of Space Marines. If they are getting rid of one, they should have dumped all three for pure primaries versions at the same time. I much prefer all their options to the single weapon primaries squads. It is really sad.

Also miss the mixed armour marks they offer. Mainly VI and VII, but there are other parts in there too. I will particularly miss the VI parts, though. The design of the new HH plastics is horrible in comparison to the preceding plastic and resin verisons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
AoS tanked until the General's Handbook started to fix things.

It wasn't doing much. Still did better than WHFB.

GHB 1.0 saved it from ending like WHFB and has built a fantastic game from that.

Honestly I am excited for TOW but fear that it can end up being ignored by players like before because they either own too much or don't have the finance to buy themselves into the game. Will be interesting how GW solves that.

 Eldarsif wrote:
It wasn't doing much. Still did better than WHFB.

Maybe, but only because "better than the dying game that GW was deliberately killing off to make room for AoS" is an incredibly low bar to fail. AoS on launch was a complete failure and one of the worst tabletop games ever created, with such poor financial performance that it put GW as a company into some serious trouble. Things only got better once GW released a new version of the game that fixed its worst flaws.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm sure that some of this is to make way for Primaris versions of these kits, like Scouts, but Tech-Marines and Land Speeders? Bikes? Surprised at those.

I've never seen a Hunter/Stalker in real life... can't exactly buy one either. Already out of stock and can't find a single store that has one.

 Haighus wrote:
The writing was on the wall when 8th dropped, but the Primaris Terminators were the real death knell.

You say that, but the amount of gak that was thrown at me when I suggested that when Primaris Marines first appeared still pisses me off.

I was right. Completely right. 100% right. Because of course I fething was. And everyone who doubted me and attacked me knows it. HA!

If I sound mad about this, it's because I am.

'

except that you guys where claiming first born where going to be totally removed by 9th. yes some people ignored it but most people where predicting a slow soft removal of first born, as units are directly replaced. As it is the units going last chance to buy aren't exactly units we're going to miss much. Assault marines weren't exactly super common




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vadersson wrote:
Of all these the loss of Assault Marines amazes me. Assault, Devastator, Tactical squads is the core of Space Marines. If they are getting rid of one, they should have dumped all three for pure primaries versions at the same time. I much prefer all their options to the single weapon primaries squads. It is really sad.

follow the money. devestator and tac squads likely still sell better, it's common to see those two units in a list. meanwhile assault marines tend to be... "a touch rare"

BrianDavion wrote:
except that you guys where claiming first born where going to be totally removed by 9th. yes some people ignored it but most people where predicting a slow soft removal of first born, as units are directly replaced. As it is the units going last chance to buy aren't exactly units we're going to miss much. Assault marines weren't exactly super common

I remember distinctly saying that the change to W2 Marines across the board was one of the steps in a long process of removing them, as that was the first step of removing differentiation between Primaris and non-Primairs, and that within a Codex or two they could remove them from the game.

But go on, continue to tell me that I was wrong when I was completely right.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I remember distinctly saying that the change to W2 Marines across the board was one of the steps in a long process of removing them, as that was the first step of removing differentiation between Primaris and non-Primairs, and that within a Codex or two they could remove them from the game.

But go on, continue to tell me that I was wrong when I was completely right.

People who disputed that were just pushing against reality. Once 'true scale' Marines appeared, they were always going to replace the original range - it was just a question of how long it would take. I suspect that the original plan has changed though. I am dubious about whether they always intended to put out up-scaled Termies; I suspect that they eventually realised that they couldn't ditch iconic original units (like Termies) and replace them with less effective ones (like Aggressors). I am fine with the aesthetics of the Primaris range, but it is over-specialised. And it never really made sense for the basic Primaris unit to be a bunch of guys with bolters when the Tactical squad was so much more effective (and believable) as a unit. They should bite the bullet (again) and go back to something closer to the classic Marine unit composition. This would also distinguish WH40k Marines more from the Heresy era variants, which also have uniform weapons in units.

I remember two camps from back when Primaris first dropped. One group was basically shouting "byebye soon Sm0lmarines, you won't be missed", the other "probably not right now, but five years from now they will be gone for sure" - both often adding a "you are delusional if you believe otherwise". Turns out both of these were wrong, as more than six years later a good chunk of the old range is still there. Yes, this is one of the bigger pulls now, but who knows how long it will take for the rest to disappear.

I guess nobody expected the whole old range to be around forever. Nothing ever is. This slow removal of older kits, while close replacements are (mostly) available? Pretty much the perfect way to go from a business side of things. I would not be shocked to see a multipart kit for Primaris bikes, scouts and jump troops with the upcoming codex. Followed by whatever fate awaits Tacticals and Devestators next edition.

GW also said there's more new Marines on the way.

So everything (mostly) will probably be back, just in Primaris flavor.

almost certainly, primaris Assault marines have been something we've been demanding for awhile, and the heavy distinction drawn between assault marines and jump pack assault marines in the index strikes me as likely GW is going to be making that distinction more readily apparent in the future.

I just hope they don't put the new jump assault marines on those fething flying sticks

Well, we already have Primaris Assault Marines (aka Assault Intercessors). Now GW needs to produce Primary Jump Pack Marines.

So far we have three units: Suppressors, Inceptors, and Kayvaan Shrike. Time will tell if they follow one of those aesthetics or go for something completely different with newer Primaris Jump Packs.

 TalonZahn wrote:
So everything (mostly) will probably be back, just in Primaris flavor.

They said some things wouldn't have analogues, which sadly included the Thunderfire Cannon. And the Hunter probably. And normal Land Speeders.

I just hope this mean a proper Outrider kit with options.

 Darnok wrote:
I remember two camps from back when Primaris first dropped. One group was basically shouting "byebye soon Sm0lmarines, you won't be missed", the other "probably not right now, but five years from now they will be gone for sure" - both often adding a "you are delusional if you believe otherwise". Turns out both of these were wrong, as more than six years later a good chunk of the old range is still there. Yes, this is one of the bigger pulls now, but who knows how long it will take for the rest to disappear.

You can try to paint this as the same side infighting over details, but the amount of people who swore blind that we were nutcase conspiracy theorists for saying that First Borns were going away (before the term "First Born" was even a thing) was significant. And very vocal.

Of course none of knew the exact time scale, and like Snord said, I'm sure the plan changed (probably more than once) along the way, but we were right.

It's horrible vindication.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
I remember two camps from back when Primaris first dropped. One group was basically shouting "byebye soon Sm0lmarines, you won't be missed", the other "probably not right now, but five years from now they will be gone for sure" - both often adding a "you are delusional if you believe otherwise". Turns out both of these were wrong, as more than six years later a good chunk of the old range is still there. Yes, this is one of the bigger pulls now, but who knows how long it will take for the rest to disappear.

You can try to paint this as the same side infighting over details, but the amount of people who swore blind that we were nutcase conspiracy theorists for saying that First Borns were going away (before the term "First Born" was even a thing) was significant. And very vocal.

Yeah you are not wrong. Anybody who believed the older sculpts were staying around forever while a new generation was advertised left right and center was of course delusional.


P.S.: I wonder if (and when) a proper Outrider kit comes out, it will have special weapon options, possibly even mimicking the older bike ones.

I'd be happy with weapon options for the Sergeant - a cool power sword, and a big thunder hammer would be nice - then I could build a couple of and use them with my existing mono-pose ones.

 alextroy wrote:
Well, we already have Primaris Assault Marines (aka Assault Intercessors). Now GW needs to produce Primary Jump Pack Marines.

So far we have three units: Suppressors, Inceptors, and Kayvaan Shrike. Time will tell if they follow one of those aesthetics or go for something completely different with newer Primaris Jump Packs.

Suppressors and Inceptors are horrible sculpts that belong in a GI Joe line.
Shrike is ok, apart from the missing magazine (compare the Phobos Captian with 100% the same stance) and that the jetpack looks so bad, not even GW wants to offer 360° view in their webstore.

You forgot Dante, that would be the way to go.

They should have just released Reivers with optional jump packs and actual options for CCW and it would have been fine. I don't get how anyone can not miss Assault Marines with Jump Packs. I don't think any other model in the Space Marine line captures their essence better than Chainsword toting maniac tanks that strap a jetpack on and jump right into the maw of certain defeat, just so that the poor fools down there can witness the descent of the Angels of Death.

no unexpected, the only surprise is that not all kits have a direct replacement now which would either indicate that there will be none (no AA tank for Primaris) or that one of the other kits is seen as replacement like the role of Scouts is covered by Rivers, adding another Primaris Scout would not help with cutting units

 Eldarsif wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
AoS tanked until the General's Handbook started to fix things.

It wasn't doing much. Still did better than WHFB.
GHB 1.0 saved it from ending like WHFB and has built a fantastic game from that.

any source that Endtimes sold less than AoS launch?
number of boxes sold, like Endtimes books sold out and AoS Launch box didn't?
or that the Slayers sold well enough compared to Nagash that those were offered at 50% discount bundles?

seen nothing that would indicate AoS sold better than WHFB at all until 2nd Edition, and being a fantastic game is personal taste as it is the 2nd best mainline game GW has (after LotR) but not on the level of "fantastic"