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 Abanshee wrote:
Apologism? You mean my like of the character is disturbing? Am I on trial, Inquisitor?

Apologism, as in defending the Imperium's genocides because "those Eldar children might grow up to be enemies someday".

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:


Bro, that's because almost every alien species is hostile to humans.

You have the cause and effect wrong. Almost every alien species is hostile to humans because the humans are fething nuts. You can go read the material on the Tau if you want to see how a new player on the scene learns very quickly that the Imperium is senselessly genocidal and untrustworthy.

Take a drink every time someone assumes you haven't read something. I'd be suffering from liver failure, lol!


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 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Apologism? You mean my like of the character is disturbing? Am I on trial, Inquisitor?

Apologism, as in defending the Imperium's genocides because "those Eldar children might grow up to be enemies someday".

Bro, you just let me know you didn't even read what I typed.


Whatever, it's been a really productive discussion, but this conversation is going absolutely nowhere.


So, you have a nice rest of the night, pal!

 Abanshee wrote:
Bro, you just let me know you didn't even read what I typed.

I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar
-You

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Bro, you just let me know you didn't even read what I typed.

I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar
-You

I would too. The Eldar are the reason slaneesh exists. Imagine trying to be friends with the Eldar and then some Farseer has a cryptic vision that causes them to kill an entire planet of yours to stop some unprovable event from happening to them at some point in the future. They dont bother to tell you because they "know better" and see you as lesser (despite your empire utterly mogging theirs) or even if they do tell you, how do you allow that? Why should an extremely self serving race like this be left alone? Even if morally it doesnt sit well, strategically it seems the right move. Slaughter all of them until they aren't a problem anymore. Another issue is that, partially due to their own stupidity, they are going extinct and care very much about avoiding that fate. Which is fine, but if they perceive or "predict" that you might get in the way of that, or your future bloodline, they could turn into a big problem.

It's just not a friendship worth having. People who think they can see the future and correct it in their favour as if it's the present will just get you in all sorts of trouble. To put this into a real life goofy hypothetical, imagine if the state of New Zealand killed via espionage James cameron because some psychic (or whoever) saw a future where a movie of his influenced a radical terrorist group 700 years from now. What should the USA do? Then it just keeps happening. Surely at some point you gotta put us down haha. Or try...

Swastakowey wrote:
What should the USA do?

I'm pretty sure the answer would not be "kill everyone in New Zealand, including small children just to be sure."

Removed - please don't derail the topic.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
What should the USA do?

I'm pretty sure the answer would not be "kill everyone in New Zealand, including small children just to be sure."

Just some of them im sure, which is somehow ok.

Plus then you got all the other wack jobs accosting you like orks, nids, necrons etc etc and maybe you'd start being a bit less high and mighty about the limit of your killing in retaliation.

I'm not gonna slip into this paricular point of the discussion because I couldn't read what abanshee wrote so I don't know but hm well. Just amazed at how far it all got wrong.

Swastakowey wrote:
Just some of them im sure, which is somehow ok.

Plus then you got all the other wack jobs accosting you like orks, nids, necrons etc etc and maybe you'd start being a bit less high and mighty about the limit of your killing in retaliation.

Are we seriously going to go with "genocide is justified as long as you feel sufficiently attacked"?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Just some of them im sure, which is somehow ok.

Plus then you got all the other wack jobs accosting you like orks, nids, necrons etc etc and maybe you'd start being a bit less high and mighty about the limit of your killing in retaliation.

Are we seriously going to go with "genocide is justified as long as you feel sufficiently attacked"?

Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
What should the USA do?

I'm pretty sure the answer would not be "kill everyone in New Zealand, including small children just to be sure."

Correct.


However as a species we are basically responsible right now, this very day, for a level of non-human species extinction that, as far as we know, is basically only rivalled by historical events such as the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Both by deliberate action and accidental. We even do it to species that we are utilizing as a resource; where we directly benefit from the species being around we are more than capable of driving it to extinction for short term gains.

Eldar are fully external to humanity and the Imperium is at its core utterly cowardly and fearful. This is based upon historic events where things like AI and Xenos have risen up and threatened the entirety of the Imperium. The Imperium's reaction when something threatens it is to obliterate it entirely. They don't worry about retaining or utilization, they only focus on the simple "kill them all" message and approach. Even though when you zoom in you will have Inquisitors working with Xenos; you will have AI appearing here and there in some form in machinery; you will have Rogue Traders establishing trade with Xenos; even planetary Governors will trade in Xenotech and the like. The Imperial stance and message is not perfectly carried across the Imperium, its enforcement varies a lot and many in the Imperium clearly DON'T want to genocide the Eldar or other Xenos.

Heck the Emperor only lives thanks to the hand of the Xenos.



The Imperium could change, but its like an oil-tanker. It's sheer vastness and momentum means its insanely slow to change. This isn't helped by the fact that many of its ruling classes extend their lives though various means which ensures that their viewpoint and policies remains strong for generation after generation - influences and raises them which reinforces certain viewpoints to an insane degree.

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Yeah yeah hyperbole and all that but still seems to me like knowingly tossing that after testing it and seeing the results was quite close. But yeah, minimum 150 000 to 250 000 not counting the consequences of irradiation is okay.

The conventional bombing of Tokyo killed more civilians than either nuclear attack, and, once again: we don't do that anymore. I'm not sure why you think pointing out past atrocities somehow justifies anything here. The civilized world has decided that the bombing strategy of WWII is not morally acceptable and bringing it up has no purpose other than trying to deflect the conversation into a debate on how evil the US is.

Is that topic really becoming a full dumpster fire where people fight over what's a good way to massively annihilate people? I'm out.

So you drop your absurd argument about "WHAT ABOUT US NUKES" and then run when you get called on how absurd it is?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

I'd argue your opinion would prove incredibly unpopular and unwise given the tendencies of most aliens and entities in this universe. It would also be a huge drain on resources and time which could be better used to fight on all the other fronts. I'd go as far to say that this approach to aliens in 40k would be a losing one. Of course im sure you make an exception to your morals for orks or demons but id extend it to eldar personally. At least id be fighting a war of existence until my existence is secured, if that means the eldar are no more, then all their weirdness like creating chaos gods or fething with you for future crimes are now gone. Arguably my sense of justice, which is killing them before they can kill me is simply the exact thing they do, the imperium is just better at doing it full scale than they are. Which is their fault entirely.

 Abanshee wrote:
Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

I didn't justify anything. I clearly referred to the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in WWII as "horror". Please do not be dishonest.


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Swastakowey wrote:
I'd argue your opinion would prove incredibly unpopular and unwise given the tendencies of most aliens and entities in this universe. It would also be a huge drain on resources and time which could be better used to fight on all the other fronts. I'd go as far to say that this approach to aliens in 40k would be a losing one. Of course im sure you make an exception to your morals for orks or demons but id extend it to eldar personally. At least id be fighting a war of existence until my existence is secured, if that means the eldar are no more, then all their weirdness like creating chaos gods or fething with you for future crimes are now gone. Arguably my sense of justice, which is killing them before they can kill me is simply the exact thing they do, the imperium is just better at doing it full scale than they are. Which is their fault entirely.

So now we're back to justifying mass murder of innocent children because they might someday grow up to be a threat.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

I didn't justify anything. I clearly referred to the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in WWII as "horror". Please do not be dishonest.


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Swastakowey wrote:
I'd argue your opinion would prove incredibly unpopular and unwise given the tendencies of most aliens and entities in this universe. It would also be a huge drain on resources and time which could be better used to fight on all the other fronts. I'd go as far to say that this approach to aliens in 40k would be a losing one. Of course im sure you make an exception to your morals for orks or demons but id extend it to eldar personally. At least id be fighting a war of existence until my existence is secured, if that means the eldar are no more, then all their weirdness like creating chaos gods or fething with you for future crimes are now gone. Arguably my sense of justice, which is killing them before they can kill me is simply the exact thing they do, the imperium is just better at doing it full scale than they are. Which is their fault entirely.

So now we're back to justifying mass murder of innocent children because they might someday grow up to be a threat.

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Swastakowey wrote:
Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

And guess what: Eldar are evil. Nobody AFAIK is disputing this fact, and "the other side is bad too" does not excuse genocide.

Quote me saying that it justifies any atrocity.

Second, 80 000-130 000 estimated deaths for Tokyo < circa 150 000 lowest estimate. Wiki-ed it.

Third of all, you're missing my point, which was to show this conversation about killing not killing is makes no sense and that it is not a question of how many, it is a question that you kill the innocent in the first place.This debate makes no sense and is not the point, which is to discuss the lore.

Fourth, quote where I said "let's discuss US foreign politics at large"? Quote.

You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide. You may have poorly expressed yourself, in which case you may acknowledge it and reformulate your point, instead of getting aggressive.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

And guess what: Eldar are evil. Nobody AFAIK is disputing this fact, and "the other side is bad too" does not excuse genocide.

Ah... yeah it can? What about orks for example? Where do you stop with these creatures? Do you just allow a never ending war so as to not fully eliminate these creatures? Are you willing to send off your own sons, your neighbours sons etc etc to fight and die in this never ending "just enough" war against these creatures because genocide is just a bit too much for you? Unless you have some workable real solution, your idea is frankly just stupidity.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide.

I said no such thing. You've just made up some weird tangent about US history and built a straw man to attack. Do not do this.


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Swastakowey wrote:
Ah... yeah it can? What about orks for example? Where do you stop with these creatures? Do you just allow a never ending war so as to not fully eliminate these creatures? Are you willing to send off your own sons, your neighbours sons etc etc to fight and die in this never ending "just enough" war against these creatures because genocide is just a bit too much for you? Unless you have some workable real solution, your idea is frankly just stupidity.

Now where have I heard this argument made before?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide.

I said no such thing. You've just made up some weird tangent about US history and built a straw man to attack. Do not do this.

You actually have said just that over the course of this discussion. When pressed as to what level of killing is ok (even in 40k) you pretty much say "not genocide".


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 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide.

I said no such thing. You've just made up some weird tangent about US history and built a straw man to attack. Do not do this.


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Swastakowey wrote:
Ah... yeah it can? What about orks for example? Where do you stop with these creatures? Do you just allow a never ending war so as to not fully eliminate these creatures? Are you willing to send off your own sons, your neighbours sons etc etc to fight and die in this never ending "just enough" war against these creatures because genocide is just a bit too much for you? Unless you have some workable real solution, your idea is frankly just stupidity.

Now where have I heard this argument made before?

Whats your solution? Just criticize the people dealing with literal demons and orks etc while they struggle to find a solution on your behalf? Tell me why it isn't ok to genocide the Eldar, Orcs or Necrons...

Swastakowey wrote:
You actually have said just that over the course of this discussion. When pressed as to what level of killing is ok (even in 40k) you pretty much say "not genocide".

I said no such thing. Stop lying.


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Swastakowey wrote:
Whats your solution? Just criticize the people dealing with literal demons and orks etc while they struggle to find a solution on your behalf? Tell me why it isn't ok to genocide the Eldar, Orcs or Necrons...

Because genocide is bad. FFS why is this so complicated?


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Seriously, this thread is why GW has to make official statements saying "everyone in this setting is evil stop defending them".

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
You actually have said just that over the course of this discussion. When pressed as to what level of killing is ok (even in 40k) you pretty much say "not genocide".

I said no such thing. Stop lying.


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Swastakowey wrote:
Whats your solution? Just criticize the people dealing with literal demons and orks etc while they struggle to find a solution on your behalf? Tell me why it isn't ok to genocide the Eldar, Orcs or Necrons...

Because genocide is bad. FFS why is this so complicated?

Because it actually is complicated? Again if it's so simple, please oh wise moralist, tell me your solution to the orc problem? Third time asking...

Swastakowey wrote:
Because it actually is complicated? Again if it's so simple, please oh wise moralist, tell me your solution to the orc problem? Third time asking...

Destroy military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, as I have already said. Stop making up excuses for why genocide is justified.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

Now, apply that logic to a psychic race of beings that literally calls you monkeys and would gladly see a billion of your kind die if it meant saving just one of their own. Also, a race that attacks you on the regular due to...prophecy...or divination, lol.

Yeah, probably not going to want to let a single one of those guys survive. Especially, when they've actively broken diplomacy with you before and helped birth a demonic god/goddess of sensation, excess, and debauchery into existence.

I mean what do you do with a species like say, the Dark Eldar? Do you just let them all live? Pray to Big E, they won't go back to murdering, torturing, and raping every being in existence to stave off Slaanesh? No, because the Dark Eldar and their entire society actively benefits from the suffering of others and without that, they die. There are only two options of the table other than: hope that they change or annihilate them because they never will.

LEANS. That's not my native langage ok but I'm pretty sure in this context it means "gives the impression of, tends to a certain direction".

So my point still stands that the way you defended yourself is LEANING towards expressing such ideas as some killing is alright. If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

 Abanshee wrote:
Yeah, probably not going to want to let a single one of those guys survive.

And here we are, back to "kill innocent children because they might grow up to be enemies someday."

 Abanshee wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

Now, apply that logic to a psychic race of beings that literally calls you monkeys and would gladly see a billion of your kind die if it meant saving just one of their own. Also, a race that attacks you on the regular due to...prophecy...or divination, lol.

Yeah, probably not going to want to let a single one of those guys survive. Especially, when they've actively broken diplomacy with you before and helped birth a demonic god/goddess of sensation, excess, and debauchery into existence.

I mean what do you do with a species like say, the Dark Eldar? Do you just let them all live? Pray to Big E, they won't go back to murdering, torturing, and raping every being in existence to stave off Slaanesh? No, because the Dark Eldar and their entire society actively benefits from the suffering of others and without that, they die. There are only two options of the table other than: hope that they change or annihilate them because they never will.

I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


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Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient. Where have I heard that one before?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


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Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient.

I hope you're the first to line up and serve in the meatgrinder to fight the eternally crusading aliens of 40k. Afterall, dying as your father did, and your son will and every one after for all of eternity is a small price to pay to not be called a genocidal person hahaha. Good luck selling that mindset to people with a real threat in front of them... like Orks.

Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?