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 Kanluwen wrote:

lolwut? The last release for Aeldari had more named special characters in it than some factions/subfactions have!

Hä? They got Maugan Ra in the 9th release. That's it. Are you counting Warlocks and Autarch kits as special characters?

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

lolwut? The last release for Aeldari had more named special characters in it than some factions/subfactions have!

Hä? They got Maugan Ra in the 9th release. That's it. Are you counting Warlocks and Autarch kits as special characters?

I'm thinking of Jain Zar, who got released initially in Blood of the Phoenix and then saw a solo release not long after.

Or is time just running together that much with regards to Aeldari?

 Kanluwen wrote:

lolwut? The last release for Aeldari had more named special characters in it than some factions/subfactions have!

Do we actually have to pull out the GSC characters to compare now? The Eldar characters is an update of decade old resin models (which are still not complete by the way) while majority of the GSC characters are literally characters no one asked for but the guy who sculpted them. The only surprised Eldar release over the past year was Corsair, I was asking for the fanatic, the one who goes above and beyond while the guy on paycheck just made what he was told to do, and it looked like he didn't even remember to sculpt Karandras, classic.

If you want another "fanatic" example look at Death Guards,it were sculpted by a Death Guard fanatic and it shown. If there're a person like that for Eldar we might even have Space Marine heroes version of Eldar.

Dude, if you believe that Jes fething Goodwin let them "forget" Karandras...I've got pristine mountain top property to sell you in the Everglades.

And really, it's interesting the goalposts moved. You said "Eldar/Ynnari characters". We saw 2 Phoenix Lords, the Avatar of Khaine, and a second Autarch kit, and a Warlock double kit.

GSC might have a lot of characters but so what?

GSC is basically harlequins. They should barely be a separate army. They have more than enough new models and don’t need much else. Eldar still have a long way to go to flesh out their line.

 bullyboy wrote:
GSC is basically harlequins. They should barely be a separate army. They have more than enough new models and don’t need much else. Eldar still have a long way to go to flesh out their line.

i don't really agree? GSC have a lot more than quins, even without brood brothers (which is a big part of the army's identity). it's three distinct infantry boxes which build four kits, vs just troupes for quins. GSC are also much more distinct in their models compared to eldar vs quins

 bullyboy wrote:
GSC is basically harlequins. They should barely be a separate army. They have more than enough new models and don’t need much else. Eldar still have a long way to go to flesh out their line.

Tell me you have no clue of GSC without telling me you have no clue about GSC.

GSC have, in terms of kits and models unique to them: Neophytes, Acolytes/Metamorphs, Aberrants, Rockgrinder/Truck, Ridgerunner, Jackals, plus 12 different character models. They share Genestealers and (kinda) the Patriarch/Broodlord with Tyranids and have access to a good chunk of the Imperial Guard range - plus an upgrade set for Brood Brother Cadians. And GSC were a thing in the background fighting as forces of their own way longer than Harlequins.

Harlequins, in comparison: Troupe, Skyweaver, Starweaver/Voidweaver, plus three character models. They are no longer in a codex of their own. While technically they were playable as part of an Eldar codex over 40Ks history for longer than GSC, they had less overall time in a book of their own - and their background never supported them fighting as "a proper 40K army".

I get that personal preferences can cloud judgements, but this one is so off it is not even funny. It must be frustrating for fans of Harlequins, and I share their anger over GWs treatment of them, but still... get real.

 bullyboy wrote:
Eldar still have a long way to go to flesh out their line.

Now you're just trolling.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

lolwut? The last release for Aeldari had more named special characters in it than some factions/subfactions have!

Hä? They got Maugan Ra in the 9th release. That's it. Are you counting Warlocks and Autarch kits as special characters?

I'm thinking of Jain Zar, who got released initially in Blood of the Phoenix and then saw a solo release not long after.

Or is time just running together that much with regards to Aeldari?

Blood of the Phoenix was in 2019.

The 9th ed Aeldari release was in 2022.

Chopstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

lolwut? The last release for Aeldari had more named special characters in it than some factions/subfactions have!

Do we actually have to pull out the GSC characters to compare now? The Eldar characters is an update of decade old resin models (which are still not complete by the way) while majority of the GSC characters are literally characters no one asked for but the guy who sculpted them. The only surprised Eldar release over the past year was Corsair, I was asking for the fanatic, the one who goes above and beyond while the guy on paycheck just made what he was told to do, and it looked like he didn't even remember to sculpt Karandras, classic.

If you want another "fanatic" example look at Death Guards,it were sculpted by a Death Guard fanatic and it shown. If there're a person like that for Eldar we might even have Space Marine heroes version of Eldar.

To be fair there's not much for an Eldar "fanatic" designer to get their teeth into when the brief is "replicate this 2006 kit as closely as possible with modern design technology". The appearances of the 4th Ed Aspect Warriors seem to be practically canon now. (My pet theory is that Goodwin is taking no chances on a repeat of the 3rd Ed Scorpions.) We know what the new Dragons are going to look like. The Spears, on the other hand, who had no 4th Ed models, got a proper glow-up. Since neither Hawks nor Spiders had them either, it'll be interesting to see whether there's a more creative update there.

Maybe "forgetting" Karandras coincided with the decision to put a finished 40k kit with no natural release slot into Kill Team. But it would seem a bit of a coincidence. I still assume he is waiting in the wings.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Blood of the Phoenix was in 2019.

The 9th ed Aeldari release was in 2022.

I feel there needs to be some sort of "law of time in regards to GW hobbying".

When you start, and/or are following every day, a year, perhaps even 6 months, can feel like an eternity.
If you've been here for 20 years, 3 years feels like a lazy Sunday afternoon, and anything released in the last decade counts as "new".

I mean its not Eldar related - but I've wanted to buy the new Fabius Bile model. And I keep thinking "its only been out a few months" - but in reality, its 4 years in June.

But in any case - the idea Eldar are not well served is mad to me.
And I agree GSC could do with a few more units rather than the seemingly endless plethora of characters.

 bullyboy wrote:
GSC is basically harlequins. They should barely be a separate army. They have more than enough new models and don’t need much else. Eldar still have a long way to go to flesh out their line.

To add to the points raised above, even in the Lore there's a stark difference in how they are portrayed.

Harlies are often single characters or small troops. They augment an Eldar force (Craftworld most often) rather than define a whole standing arm themselves. This is the issue they hit when they splintered off on their own, they just didn't have much material to build a huge diverse army out of without vast investment and changes to the lore and so forth.

It's like when GW tries to make Imperials Agents their own army - it ends up being a motley of other Imperial forces being drafted in to augment the handful of unique models that the Inquisition brings.



Genestealer Cults are vastly different and are closer, if you want an Eldar comparison, to the Pirates or Exodites. They are a full faction capable of major military operations who act on their own. Heck the only time they work with Tyranids is during the early parts of an invasion of a system - once the Tyranids win there is a high chance that most of the cult will be consumed with perhaps only leaders being allowed to escape/leave to spread the infection to other worlds.



Now I do agree, when they started the Cults were pretty dull and were mostly an Imperial Guard army with a few symbols and one or two unique models. However with their second wave of models and drip fed leaders they are now pretty distinct. Taking Imperial models is optional and somewhat restricted, whilst their core models can form a whole diverse and powerful army in their own right. As they gain more kits I fully expect this pattern to continue to the point where Imperial forces might just be one or two units or a tank or such. With perhaps a sub-faction optoin within the book to take basically an IG army with a few Cult models.


Harlies just never reached that stage, they remained a specialist force of a handful of models that relied on either spamming their own models or taking major allies.




Honestly many of the small splinter armies that GW tried ot make work failed- harlies, agents, knights. Knights did survive, but are in a tricky spot where they can really mess with the game balance because of their nature.

 Overread wrote:


Now I do agree, when they started the Cults were pretty dull and were mostly an Imperial Guard army with a few symbols and one or two unique models. However with their second wave of models and drip fed leaders they are now pretty distinct. Taking Imperial models is optional and somewhat restricted whilst their core models can form a whole diverse and powerful army in their own right. As they gain more kits I fully expect this pattern to continue to the point where Imperial forces might just be one or two units or a tank or such. With perhaps a sub-faction optoin within the book to take basically an IG army with a few Cult models.

Is there some alternate universe definition of "restricted" going on here? Do people just not read what the Brood Brothers rules are?

GSC get access to almost the entirety of the Guard codex:

No Astra Militarum models in your army can be your Warlord, and they cannot be given Enhancements.
You cannot include units with any of the following keywords in your army using these rules:
Epic Hero; Ogryn; Ratling; Militarum Tempestus; Commissar; Regimental Preacher; Regimental Enginseer; Munitorum Servitors; Aircraft

Do they have a limited amount of points to spend? Sure. But their "restrictions" aren't.

 Darnok wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Eldar still have a long way to go to flesh out their line.

Now you're just trolling.

He's... really not? Both dark and craft have serious holes to fill. Excluding Votann as a new army, they probably have the biggest range gaps out of everything in 40k.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Overread wrote:


Now I do agree, when they started the Cults were pretty dull and were mostly an Imperial Guard army with a few symbols and one or two unique models. However with their second wave of models and drip fed leaders they are now pretty distinct. Taking Imperial models is optional and somewhat restricted whilst their core models can form a whole diverse and powerful army in their own right. As they gain more kits I fully expect this pattern to continue to the point where Imperial forces might just be one or two units or a tank or such. With perhaps a sub-faction optoin within the book to take basically an IG army with a few Cult models.

Is there some alternate universe definition of "restricted" going on here? Do people just not read what the Brood Brothers rules are?

GSC get access to almost the entirety of the Guard codex:

No Astra Militarum models in your army can be your Warlord, and they cannot be given Enhancements.
You cannot include units with any of the following keywords in your army using these rules:
Epic Hero; Ogryn; Ratling; Militarum Tempestus; Commissar; Regimental Preacher; Regimental Enginseer; Munitorum Servitors; Aircraft

Do they have a limited amount of points to spend? Sure. But their "restrictions" aren't.

Almost the entirety
Somewhat restricted
At this point this isn't even being pedantic, since you've literally shown they're "somewhat restricted" by listing the minor restrictions. It's not like Overread said they were hamstrung by their restrictions or anything.

from how kan talks, you'd think that 40k games only use the 500 points that GSC can use for brood brothers

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Almost the entirety
Somewhat restricted
At this point this isn't even being pedantic, since you've literally shown they're "somewhat restricted" by listing the minor restrictions. It's not like Overread said they were hamstrung by their restrictions or anything.

When someone says they're "restricted", the onus is on them to show the severity of it. Their posting reads as though it's some actual, meaningful restrictions.

In a codex of 60 units, not being able to take a grand total of 18 units doesn't really seem "restricted" to me.
-No Ursula Creed, Gaunt's Ghosts, Harker, Straken, Marbo, Nork Deddog, or Lord Solar Leontus knocks 6 Epic Heroes out.
-No Commissar, Regimental Preacher, Enginseer or Munitorum Servitors knocks out another 4 datasheets.
-Ogryn knocks out 3 datasheets: Bullgryn, Ogryn, and Ogryn Bodyguard
-Ratling knocks out 1 datasheet.
-Tempestus knocks out the Tempestus Command squad and the Tempestus squad.
-Aircraft knocks out the Valkyrie.

And that doesn't get into the Imperial Armour bits, which are also available to GSC via the Brood Brothers rules.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
from how kan talks, you'd think that 40k games only use the 500 points that GSC can use for brood brothers

It's a % slide for how many points Brood Brothers can take up. 250/1000 pts, 500/2000pts, 750/3000pts.

But I mean, you knew that. You just don't actually care that you have the ability to outright play a whole second army as "just a special rule". You don't care that your faction has been an absolute weight around the neck of Guard since the first incarnation of these whole "Pick and Choose" Brood Brothers rules. It was a wildly different story when there was a singular set of items put straight into your codex codex.

You're really just being obtuse by ignoring the "somewhat" part of "somewhat restricted", especially when you then admit GSC can't use almost 1/3 of the Guard datasheets, even if they are mostly for minor units.

Also "an absolute weight around the neck of Guard"? There's no need to be so dramatic about it.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You're really just being obtuse by ignoring the "somewhat" part of "somewhat restricted", especially when you then admit GSC can't use almost 1/3 of the Guard datasheets, even if they are mostly for minor units.

And I feel like you're being obtuse by adding a context that wasn't presented.

Also, that 1/3 is just the stuff from the main index cards. They get another 23 items from Imperial Armour.

Also "an absolute weight around the neck of Guard"? There's no need to be so dramatic about it.

We literally had units given restrictions because of their interactions with the previous Brood Brothers "add a keyword" bit.

I stand by my comment on GSC.
They were basically a tiny offshoot passion project of players after some small inclusion in the game many years ago, just like Harlequins. GW could have chose to do the same for Harlies, turn them into a full fledged army by adding character after character and new units, but GSC got that love.
It’s still just an offshoot army that was given full attention by GW, it was never a mainstream force.
It could easily have remained a few units and suck in the Guard book or mid book just like Harlies have now been relegated to.

Voss wrote:
He's... really not? Both dark and craft have serious holes to fill. Excluding Votann as a new army, they probably have the biggest range gaps out of everything in 40k.

I mean I can put my DE hat on and say yes - the faction's not really gained anything except flyers since 1998...

But Eldar? What holes are possibly in need of filling? There's a few bits of forgeworld for those who are still refusing to buy that but they are probably the largest, and certainly most rounded army apart from Space Marines.

Tyel wrote:

Voss wrote:
He's... really not? Both dark and craft have serious holes to fill. Excluding Votann as a new army, they probably have the biggest range gaps out of everything in 40k.

I mean I can put my DE hat on and say yes - the faction's not really gained anything except flyers since 1998...

But Eldar? What holes are possibly in need of filling? There's a few bits of forgeworld for those who are still refusing to buy that but they are probably the largest, and certainly most rounded army apart from Space Marines.

Still need Warp spiders, swooping hawks, fire dragons, many Phoenix lords to finish the line. I’m fond of the old falcon and Vyper kit so don’t care for an upgrade. It’s really just the aspects which GW has been addressing over the past few years now (reapers, banshees, spears and recently scorpions)

 bullyboy wrote:

Still need Warp spiders, swooping hawks, fire dragons, many Phoenix lords to finish the line.

Resculpts aren't the same thing as gap-filling.

I’m fond of the old falcon and Vyper kit so don’t care for an upgrade. It’s really just the aspects which GW has been addressing over the past few years now (reapers, banshees, spears and recently scorpions)

Also Guardians, weapon platforms, Rangers, and even a new Ranger biker unit...

 Darnok wrote:
And GSC were a thing in the background fighting as forces of their own way longer than Harlequins.

Erm.. no. Harlequin forces were first, though not much.

 bullyboy wrote:
I stand by my comment on GSC.
They were basically a tiny offshoot passion project of players after some small inclusion in the game many years ago, just like Harlequins.

Harlequins were the second Eldar army list after Eldritch Raiders (basically corsars with Zoats). They used scavenged Imperial stuff like robots and tanks for their performance and were a full-fledged army.

Genestealers on the other hand weren't Tyranids at the time they got their two lists (Invasion Force and Genestealer Cult). They had access to Chaos stuff back then, but also to vehicles, guns, brood brothers (infected humans back then, not hybrids), beastmen, mutants etc.

Both are very old armies - both could be played in 2nd edition though. But as the factions developed, a combinded force of Eldar and Harlequins was far more reasonable as Tyranids with the option of tanks and guns.

Harlequins are small troupes of players putting on performances based on fixed, ritualistic roles.

Genestealer Cults are planetwide insurrections spawned from amongst the wide variety of human worlds.

Which range should be larger?

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Harlequins are small troupes of players putting on performances based on fixed, ritualistic roles.

Genestealer Cults are planetwide insurrections spawned from amongst the wide variety of human worlds.

Which range should be larger?

Well... Harlequin troupes could be pretty 'large', more than a hundred individuals. And they can appear wherever they want. Even better than Space Marines, and those also usually don't have that much manpower when they attack. And a normal 40k game isn't exactly a world-wide conflict.

GSC aren't that flexible, they are usually only active on a planet or sub-sector. I can see the criticism about them being a main faction when others are not.

Well, yes, personally I don't care, I played GSC since 2nd edition, so I'm okay with them being a faction and with access to Imperial stuff.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Harlequins are small troupes of players putting on performances based on fixed, ritualistic roles.

Genestealer Cults are planetwide insurrections spawned from amongst the wide variety of human worlds.

Which range should be larger?

Well... Harlequin troupes could be pretty 'large', more than a hundred individuals. And they can appear wherever they want. Even better than Space Marines, and those also usually don't have that much manpower when they attack. And a normal 40k game isn't exactly a world-wide conflict.

Harlequins' big deal back in the day was that their 'armies' were very few models on the tabletop, even pricier than Space Marines and able to wipe the floor with them with just a squad or two.

Harlequins should be the faction getting lots of monopose characters to represent roles, while the diverse GSC should be getting new mobs of degenerate Imperials. And a goddamned limo!

Anyway.

Eldar did pretty well out of 9th Ed. That there’s still plenty to go is more testament to how badly GW trod water with them in the past.

Let’s look at Aspect Warriors.

1st-3rd Ed? The same models. Then the utterly awful Mike McVey ones came out. They were uglier and less detailed than the originals. And still in metal. But I think they at least got plastic Dire Avengers.*

We then got a redo pretty quickly. First in metal, then ported to Finecast

And it’s only until really recently that we started to get plastic Aspects.

Now. Eldar haven’t hurt for new units in that time, and some stuff did get plastic kits. War Walker, Wraithlord, Wraith Knight, Support Weapons, plastic Heavy Weapon Sprue, Jetbikes, Fire Prism, Shadow Weaver, Crimson Hunter**, Wraith Fighter, probably some others I’m forgetting.

But the core was left to rot and wither. Warp Spiders for instance are older than a healthy percentage of all 40K players, being originally released in what, 1993 at a guess?

9th was sadly the first really big, really effective update. And at least they’ve done better than other Xenos with the new “we won’t necessarily wait for a Codex to do new models” approach of recent GW.

Hopefully 10th will see most of what’s left polished off. I’d of course like to see it all polished off, but I’ll take what I can get for now.

*except Warp Spiders. Poor Warp Spiders. Now what have you learned about being hideously beardy in 2nd Ed?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyway.

Eldar did pretty well out of 9th Ed. That there’s still plenty to go is more testament to how badly GW trod water with them in the past.

Let’s look at Aspect Warriors.

1st-3rd Ed? The same models. Then the utterly awful Mike McVey ones came out. They were uglier and less detailed than the originals. And still in metal. But I think they at least got plastic Dire Avengers.*

We then got a redo pretty quickly. First in metal, then ported to Finecast

And it’s only until really recently that we started to get plastic Aspects.

Now. Eldar haven’t hurt for new units in that time, and some stuff did get plastic kits. War Walker, Wraithlord, Wraith Knight, Support Weapons, plastic Heavy Weapon Sprue, Jetbikes, Fire Prism, Shadow Weaver, Crimson Hunter**, Wraith Fighter, probably some others I’m forgetting.

But the core was left to rot and wither. Warp Spiders for instance are older than a healthy percentage of all 40K players, being originally released in what, 1993 at a guess?

9th was sadly the first really big, really effective update. And at least they’ve done better than other Xenos with the new “we won’t necessarily wait for a Codex to do new models” approach of recent GW.

Hopefully 10th will see most of what’s left polished off. I’d of course like to see it all polished off, but I’ll take what I can get for now.

*except Warp Spiders. Poor Warp Spiders. Now what have you learned about being hideously beardy in 2nd Ed?

3rd Ed Dire Avengers were metal heads and loin cloths for the plastic guardians that came out with C:CE. I remember how horrible those were to put together.

The fully plastic ones came with the 4th Ed Codex.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

Which range should be larger?

Remind me what the largest range in 40K is...

Dark Eldar need fleshing out not so much in new units, but in options for existing units. Heck, I'd like to see the return of more weapons options across the board for all armies, but DE seem to hurt BAD in this regard.

Also the whole "this unit contains exactly this combination of models" line had GOT to go.