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Tyel wrote:
No real basis but... I'm not convinced they'd try to launch EC with... you can have 2 basic squads, and 2 more... kinda basic squads.

I mean GW makes mistakes etc. It might be fine in terms of models and money - but its not exactly screaming FOMO.

I'd have thought they'd want to push some other stuff just to splash it all over Warhammer Community etc.

This is the initial faction launch set with a codex, core infantry & generic HQ. Once buyers have had 4-8 weeks to paint those essentials, GW will follow up with the elite squad kit, Lucius, and Fulgrim. It's all intended to maximise how many people buy into the fresh new faction.

It really varies though - sometimes GW spreads them out sometimes they dump the whole lot in one big go. I get the feeling that there's simply completing aspects. One part "hey customers can only buy so much at once" and another "hey we need the next 10 release slots for other things so you either get it out hte door now or it will be months before there's another slot and that will kill it faster than smothering the market for it for a little while"

There's also the fact that a good many people will "sit" on a new army until they can see more of it. Tease too little and the army can go nowhere because everyone is waiting to just see a few more models before committing to a whole army.

 Overread wrote:
It really varies though - sometimes GW spreads them out sometimes they dump the whole lot in one big go. I get the feeling that there's simply completing aspects. One part "hey customers can only buy so much at once" and another "hey we need the next 10 release slots for other things so you either get it out hte door now or it will be months before there's another slot and that will kill it faster than smothering the market for it for a little while"

There's also the fact that a good many people will "sit" on a new army until they can see more of it. Tease too little and the army can go nowhere because everyone is waiting to just see a few more models before committing to a whole army.

Not sure if you mean revealing everything at once/spread the reveals out or if you mean releasing them.

If its about release date not really. Army sets normally get released about a month early and include the codex as a early access with the rest of the kits and the actual codex release coming later.
Battleforces are used when they release everything together, they don't include the codex (As it is available at the same time) and also normally don't include many new kits, most of the time just a single hero.

Also to clarify I'm not talking about the ones, they also used the Battleforce name for the sets released for CSM, Orks, Custodes, Sisters and GSC

I'm not doubting there will be another wave of stuff.

I just mean the box itself is going to be kind of... bare.

Consider say the Sisters Box all the way back in... 2018 I think. Good variety of stuff.

People have compared Votann - yes you had 2 basic squads, but you got 2 characters and the bikers. Kroot got 2 basic squads but also 2 characters, the rampagers and Krootox. Snagga Boyz not great - but arguably that's a bolt on to Orks rather than a thing in itself.

This is theorized to be a 33 strong brick of infantry. Doing infantry things. To my mind that's not exactly firing people's imaginations. Basically I'd expect there to be a unit of bikers, or a light monster/vehicle etc, at least 2 characters, to break it up.

Tyel wrote:
I'm not doubting there will be another wave of stuff.

I just mean the box itself is going to be kind of... bare.

Consider say the Sisters Box all the way back in... 2018 I think. Good variety of stuff.

People have compared Votann - yes you had 2 basic squads, but you got 2 characters and the bikers. Kroot got 2 basic squads but also 2 characters, the rampagers and Krootox. Snagga Boyz not great - but arguably that's a bolt on to Orks rather than a thing in itself.

This is theorized to be a 33 strong brick of infantry. Doing infantry things. To my mind that's not exactly firing people's imaginations. Basically I'd expect there to be a unit of bikers, or a light monster/vehicle etc, at least 2 characters, to break it up.

That would require Emperor's Children bikers to exist in the first place. Or a second, non-named HQ. If the model selection at launch is as paltry as what World Eaters got, an Emperor's Children launch box or combat patrol simply won't have a lot of kits to pick from.

Black Templars got a Dreadnought in their launch box to "bulk" it out (it was still a laughably small selection of models for the price). As I recall the reactions to having a generic vehicle included were mostly negative. I assume Emperor's Children will have partial overlap with Chaos Marines in the vehicle, and nothing more at launch. It doesn't seem like something GW would favor.

Also I don't know if this is always the case now, but Imperial Guard straight up got the future contents of their combat patrol in the launch box. And combat patrols have gotten lighter on vehicles since it's an actual game mode in 10th ed.

Now I'm not saying it's not boring or underwhelming. It may well end up feeling like that. But to me at least the rumored contents of the box seem plausible and in line with how GW handles things at the moment.

The models in the Emperor's Children box might well be the bulk of the faction's unique kits.

Add Fulgrim and another character or two, pad out with an arbitrary selection of generic Chaos units, and you've got yourself the same sort of anemic faction as World Eaters.

If you're expecting more, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

The trouble there is that (assuming the rumours are true) EC aren't getting any bespoke bikers or light monsters/vehicles in this release wave. The options are just infantry squads, characters, and Fulgrim. GW won't put a £100 model into an army box for obvious reasons. The only alternative is older CSM kits like Helbrutes, which many people will already own and are less exciting than brand new models.

For an 'exciting' box we just need to wait and see if Fulgrim ends up in an xmas battleforce set like the other primarchs.

If he does, that won't be for a couple of years at minimum.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The models in the Emperor's Children box might well be the bulk of the faction's unique kits.

Add Fulgrim and another character or two, pad out with an arbitrary selection of generic Chaos units, and you've got yourself the same sort of anemic faction as World Eaters.

If you're expecting more, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

One thing Emprah's Kiddies will have over 9th ed World Eaters is that Slaaneshi daemon units are folded into the codex, if that rumor proves true. The book will feel more substantial and complete, even with a comparatively small Marine selection and only few new kits.

 Geifer wrote:

That would require Emperor's Children bikers to exist in the first place. Or a second, non-named HQ.

Or... hear me out: a named HQ biker!

Give it time. He comes, he goes, I'm sure he'll come again.

What do they do with the other three god-legions if Daemons are getting folded in? Will there be Index 2.0 lists for all of them? It's notable none have got a Codex in 10th, and it's a bit also hard to come up with many thematically distinct detachments for them.

twoseventwo wrote:
What do they do with the other three god-legions if Daemons are getting folded in? Will there be Index 2.0 lists for all of them? It's notable none have got a Codex in 10th, and it's a bit also hard to come up with many thematically distinct detachments for them.

The popular theory is that the four god-specific legion codices are released close to each other next year due to the change to how daemons are handled.

It's impossible to say if there is a temporary solution or if the Chaos Daemons index sticks around to provide any army without a 10th ed codex the means to include daemons. Or if GW shrugs and just expects people to wait for their codex.

Chances are there won't be a long wait between codices, though, so it won't be much of an issue for long.

twoseventwo wrote:
What do they do with the other three god-legions if Daemons are getting folded in? Will there be Index 2.0 lists for all of them? It's notable none have got a Codex in 10th, and it's a bit also hard to come up with many thematically distinct detachments for them.

Daemons folded into those codexes would be an easy gimmick to pad out how many distinct detachments each codex gets:

1) Pure legion, focused mainly on iconic core troops like plague marines or berzerkers
2) Pure daemons
3) Mixed legion/daemon incursion, likely focused on deep strike like the WE Red Angel detachment from 9E.
Then they just need one or two more specific variants. Perhaps tsons get a Tzaangor detachment while DG/WE get armoured assault.

I assume if this happens then there would be a PDF download with rules for Belakor and a combined daemon detachment, so old style daemons can still be used.

Honestly whilst its a shame to lose demon only armies; its worked REALLY well in AoS. Each of the 4 demons have entirely distinct visual styles and themes so splitting them into their own armies means that you can then really focus on giving more models to fill roles that were, before, filled by another demon from another of the 4 gods.

Personally its one change I really welcome. I think its very different to when GW tried to do the same with Skaven because in the end Skaven have a much more uniform style of model across their different clans and they all make use of the same clan-rat underlings.
Plus some of the niche groups - like the assassins one- don't really work if you try to make them into a whole "army of assassins" as opposed to units of assassins that aid others.


So yeah I can well see GW following AoS in 40K and having 4 Demon specific books, one for each God. Heck in the fullness of time I could see them adding a 5th for the Warpsmith who they've basically made another Chaos God; letting them mess with the whole "Dark Mechanicum" angle too

all for demons getting split up, yeah. demons are in an awkward place as their own codex, and it doesn't really work in practice

Daemons don't work in their current form because GW has persistently taken the lowest possible effort approach to them (ie. just use Fantasy models and pack the book with redundant non-choices).

If they were to actually make Daemons a proper 40K faction instead of an awkward Fantasy faction which happens to be in 40K then they could work just fine.

I've long said that one of the shocking things with Demons in both AoS and 40K is actually how few demons there are. Whilst the lore is insanely chock full of choices the actual models are really limited. We are running around with almost the same demonic models that demons had when they got started; almost very few actual additions of new types.

And yes more 40K specific ones would be nice; ranged options should be a thing beyond just tzeentch throwing spells and a skull cannon.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly whilst its a shame to lose demon only armies; its worked REALLY well in AoS. Each of the 4 demons have entirely distinct visual styles and themes so splitting them into their own armies means that you can then really focus on giving more models to fill roles that were, before, filled by another demon from another of the 4 gods.

Ok, and what then you do with Belakor/Archaon/Failbaddon? Their whole gimmick is combining all four into one force. Fifth undivided book that copies the four god ones?

 Overread wrote:
And yes more 40K specific ones would be nice; ranged options should be a thing beyond just tzeentch throwing spells and a skull cannon.

GW kinda tried to do that with Tzaangors and you still have people whining that race present in 40K fluff for like 30 years, with minis armed with pistols and chainswords is somehow 'too fantasy'. Go figure.

Then there is the problem that in AoS the ranged side of each god army is covered by mortal archers, so that ranged demon unit would be stepping on these toes now. Ditto in 40K. Do we even have any prominent demon types doing ranged warfare in fluff? If not, maybe just leave it to mortals and let demons keep their own theme instead of diluting it...

 Irbis wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly whilst its a shame to lose demon only armies; its worked REALLY well in AoS. Each of the 4 demons have entirely distinct visual styles and themes so splitting them into their own armies means that you can then really focus on giving more models to fill roles that were, before, filled by another demon from another of the 4 gods.

Ok, and what then you do with Belakor/Archaon/Failbaddon? Their whole gimmick is combining all four into one force. Fifth undivided book that copies the four god ones?

Perhaps or put them in Slaves to Darkness/Chaos and then simply have an option within there to take demons with a limit on the roster options. Alternate statlines can also be done that way too. Much in the same way that genestealer cults can take stealers and broodlords.


As for ranged units, there's still scope and room for demonic ranged options like artillery or a huge beast.

 Irbis wrote:
Then there is the problem that in AoS the ranged side of each god army is covered by mortal archers, so that ranged demon unit would be stepping on these toes now. Ditto in 40K. Do we even have any prominent demon types doing ranged warfare in fluff? If not, maybe just leave it to mortals and let demons keep their own theme instead of diluting it...

Pretty much all Tzeentch daemons but Screamers are ranged rather than melee (or both), with the mortal side mostly being melee units. Skyfires are the only exception in Disciples, I think.

Let all the Hounds of Khorne breathe fire. Give the Beasts of Nurgle some sort of vomit ranged attack. Fiends of Slaanesh should be able to lash out quite far with their tongues.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Let all the Hounds of Khorne breathe fire. Give the Beasts of Nurgle some sort of vomit ranged attack. Fiends of Slaanesh should be able to lash out quite far with their tongues.

But then you don't get more demons

You want a Slaanesh creature that flies on wings and fires bone barbs; or a nurgle vomitter that's just one huge torn open belly that nurglings fill with stuff and then fires vomit out of its mouth as huge gobs of artillery shot

 Overread wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Let all the Hounds of Khorne breathe fire. Give the Beasts of Nurgle some sort of vomit ranged attack. Fiends of Slaanesh should be able to lash out quite far with their tongues.

But then you don't get more demons

You want a Slaanesh creature that flies on wings and fires bone barbs; or a nurgle vomitter that's just one huge torn open belly that nurglings fill with stuff and then fires vomit out of its mouth as huge gobs of artillery shot

Condense each of those into a single character release to accompany a codex release and MAYBE they'll happen.

Nooo please no more character/leader models!!!

 Overread wrote:

Nooo please no more character/leader models!!!

Look on the bright side, we haven't seen a Space Marine Lieutenant in..... ooh, maybe Chaos will get corrupted Space Marine Lieutenants!

 Overread wrote:
Nooo please no more character/leader models!!!

Let's face it, you'll be lucky to get a single Slaaneshi model that shoots barbed boners. Don't expect a full unit now. GW is averse to that idea.

 Overread wrote:

And yes more 40K specific ones would be nice; ranged options should be a thing beyond just tzeentch throwing spells and a skull cannon.

Those are possessed, daemon engines and 40k daemon princes.

I never liked the idea of pure daemon armies in 40k at all. They were a medley of simple warp-born entities that hate each other more than the enemy. And while there're daemon worlds and warp rifts they're usually summoned by mortals - either used as weapons by them or possessing the naive fools.

 Irbis wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly whilst its a shame to lose demon only armies; its worked REALLY well in AoS. Each of the 4 demons have entirely distinct visual styles and themes so splitting them into their own armies means that you can then really focus on giving more models to fill roles that were, before, filled by another demon from another of the 4 gods.

Ok, and what then you do with Belakor/Archaon/Failbaddon? Their whole gimmick is combining all four into one force. Fifth undivided book that copies the four god ones?

"If belakor is leading this detachment, he must be the warlord. Use this detachment, these Enhancements and stratagems. You may include any units with the "daemon of X" keywords from the following books".

Easy, do that in a pdf.

 Overread wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:
Let all the Hounds of Khorne breathe fire. Give the Beasts of Nurgle some sort of vomit ranged attack. Fiends of Slaanesh should be able to lash out quite far with their tongues.

But then you don't get more demons

You want a Slaanesh creature that flies on wings and fires bone barbs; or a nurgle vomitter that's just one huge torn open belly that nurglings fill with stuff and then fires vomit out of its mouth as huge gobs of artillery shot

The second one might overlap a bit with the Plagueburst Crawler - being that both would be Daemonic artillery shooting gobs of plague with indirect fire.

(The advantage of combining Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard would be that it wouldn't be in a separate book.)