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robbienw wrote:
In what way is their approach 'predatory'?

You pay for a chance, but no guarantee, to get the product you want. There's no guarantee that you get the complete Kill Team, and if you evenutally do you might massively overspend compared to regularly available Kill Teams. If the Warhammer Community article is accurate, you can only use the Kill Team if you get all seven members, encouraging you to keep buying until you have the entire team. The article blacks out the team's main character, which may or may not be produced as much as the other members of the team, to encourage your imagination to make it out to be better than it may turn out to be, and spend money in order to find out what he looks like instead of providing you with an idea of what you're getting into ahead of time.

It's all designed to exploit in the way gambling usually works.

On top of that we know GW can do better, because one or two runs earlier they did better by providing a complete set of miniatures in a full block, so if you were inclined to mildly overspend and accept you'd end up with a duplicate or three, you could make an informed decision and get the full team without any gamble involved.

Sales practice aside, and regardless of what Warhammer Community says, there is no way that you need to get all the models to use the kill team. Just sub in similarly armed models. Single reivers and intercessors are readily available on eBay.

SamusDrake wrote:
What they have here boils down to wanting a box of marines...just buy a bloody primaris unit and be done with it.

That's actually the key here. If you're someone who buys a box of marines, this product isn't really for you. This is not a product aimed at GWs existing consumer base at all. It's about expanding to new markets.

The original line was to sell Space Marines in Japan. It really wasn't selling a game at all; it just wanted to get models into stores there to find potential customers. Even here, it exists entirely to sell in big box stores like Wal-Mart, which will not deal with things like SKU management and unsold product. What GW is selling, is something that gets their brand on high traffic shelves where people who don't normally buy their stuff might pick up a single model as a relatively inexpensive purchase with the hope of the experience bringing even a fraction of them back for more.

If hardcore fans clear shelves trying to collect them all, so much the better, because it tells Wal-Mart their products sell and makes it possible to get more of their brand out in front of more eyes. That's really the whole reason it exists.

I don't get all the angst over this product.

If you feel you're not the target audience for this? If this set doesn't fill your needs?
Shrug & move on already.

But in the midst of all your complaining, did any of you note that each model comes with a Kill Team card?
I find that pretty usefull. Now I can add an Infernus marine to my squad - without buying a whole box of them.
I'll just pick him up on the secondary market - like I did with the Heavy Intercessor Heavy Bolter from the previous set. Even if I pay a few $ shipping it's still cheaper than buying blind, or buying a whole squad (new or used) for just 1 figure....

I don't want to speak for anyone else, ccs, but my only complaint about the set would be that buying a display doesn't guarantee a complete set of the figures.

I'm a little disappointed that something described as being a Dark Angels team isn't a bit more Dark Angels-y, and sure, some of the poses could be a bit more interesting. The lack of helmets at all is certainly a choice.

As for the Kill Team card you reference, won't that be to make up this Strike Force Variel? Sure, getting the Infernus Marine card might be handy for homebrew games, but I suspect the core SM Kill Team isn't suddenly going to expand to include it.

 Dysartes wrote:

As for the Kill Team card you reference, won't that be to make up this Strike Force Variel? Sure, getting the Infernus Marine card might be handy for homebrew games, but I suspect the core SM Kill Team isn't suddenly going to expand to include it.

Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see when it comes out.

 Dysartes wrote:
I don't want to speak for anyone else, ccs, but my only complaint about the set would be that buying a display doesn't guarantee a complete set of the figures.

I'm a little disappointed that something described as being a Dark Angels team isn't a bit more Dark Angels-y, and sure, some of the poses could be a bit more interesting. The lack of helmets at all is certainly a choice.

As for the Kill Team card you reference, won't that be to make up this Strike Force Variel? Sure, getting the Infernus Marine card might be handy for homebrew games, but I suspect the core SM Kill Team isn't suddenly going to expand to include it.

Totally agree about the guarantee. It could be worth a box, even with the meh poses, if you got the entire team in one go.

Going by all the previous Heroes runs, there will be helmeted heads on the sprues.

Your point about the Kill Team card is valid. I doubt you can sub them into KT Justian, for example.
There will be keywords. Easier to use Wahapedia
And unless you get the Sergeant or Lt, you don't have a leader

ETA: I totally forgot that Justian was a 2nd ed Kill Team. So the models have to slot into the generic Angels of Death team

 Dysartes wrote:
The lack of helmets at all is certainly a choice.

Haven't all the previous waves (except the plague marines IIRC) included helmet and bare head options for all models?

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
The lack of helmets at all is certainly a choice.

Haven't all the previous waves (except the plague marines IIRC) included helmet and bare head options for all models?

The Plague Marines did too.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
The lack of helmets at all is certainly a choice.

Haven't all the previous waves (except the plague marines IIRC) included helmet and bare head options for all models?

Not sure, I was just working off the pictures in the WarCom article for this wave.

 Dysartes wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
The lack of helmets at all is certainly a choice.

Haven't all the previous waves (except the plague marines IIRC) included helmet and bare head options for all models?

Not sure, I was just working off the pictures in the WarCom article for this wave.

Every wave has had both options for every model including the terminators and plague marines.

 insaniak wrote:

A set full of models for random characters pulled from old John Blanche art would be an immediate buy.

I'd immediately buy that... If it was a product where I knew what I was buying.

Again ALL Blind boxes SUCK regardless of how good the models might be. It's just a predatory sales tactic that never should have existed for any product ever in the history of consumerism. Even collectible card games SHOULD just be a card catalogue where you buy everything you want and nothing that you don't.

To GW's credit, they didn't invent the concept.
To their eternal shame, they jumped the bandwagon.

To be fair GW were content to leave it in the Japan market; it was international pressure to bring those models to the west that made them realise that they can do it here too

Yeah I am the last person to endorse any GW business practice, but this is a case of a region targeted product that people are complaining they didn't get access to and are now complaining that the product isn't how they want it.

It's like complaining there's soy sauce in Asian food. Or that a pachinko machine doesn't work exactly like a western slot machine...

Gw could have just left it in the asian market and you'd still have to blind buy, but then pay for shipping as well.

 Hellebore wrote:
It's like complaining there's soy sauce in Asian food. Or that a pachinko machine doesn't work exactly like a western slot machine...

It is completely unlike either of those things.

The method of obtainment and the unpredictable price are what people are complaining about. They already like soy sauce and pachinko, because "plastic Space Marine models" are the analogue to the food and games in your attempted comparisons.

 Altruizine wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
It's like complaining there's soy sauce in Asian food. Or that a pachinko machine doesn't work exactly like a western slot machine...

It is completely unlike either of those things.

The method of obtainment and the unpredictable price are what people are complaining about. They already like soy sauce and pachinko, because "plastic Space Marine models" are the analogue to the food and games in your attempted comparisons.

The method of obtainment is part of the product, it's the entire point of the product. It's how they were produced and sold in the market they were designed for. You're complaining about a product format for a particular market and culture, hence my analogy. What the product is, is irrelevant. If you want a direct comparison, you're complaining that a limited edition model is limited edition, when that was the point of its release.

The blind sale is a feature of the product for the market. If you want products from that market, you have to get them that way. That market's format is obviously preferable to GW and the customers, or they would just sell those models in a standard format in that market to begin with. Undermining that market to cater to you is not worth their time.

 Hellebore wrote:
...people are complaining they didn't get access to and are now complaining that the product isn't how they want it..

.
Are they, though? Or are those complaints from two different people?


I never had a problem with the original release being targeted at a specific market. I don't have a problem with this product being what it is... I'm just not interested enough in it to buy it.

Where arenthey going to sell these?

I can't imagine seeing them in hobby stores competing with regular Warhammer models.

 insaniak wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
...people are complaining they didn't get access to and are now complaining that the product isn't how they want it..

.
Are they, though? Or are those complaints from two different people?


I never had a problem with the original release being targeted at a specific market. I don't have a problem with this product being what it is... I'm just not interested enough in it to buy it.

I'm only talking about people that want the product but don't want the product as it's sold. They want to be catered to differently, to have the product produced in a way that they want.

Now I hate the concept of blind buy in its entirety for all the reasons mentioned. But it's popular in Japan for whatever reason. So it's a product and market strategy that GW have jumped on board and produced for. So be it. But the entitlement of demanding that it be made in a way 'you' (not you you) want when it's not aimed at you just because you might like it, is also what I have issue with.

 Hellebore wrote:
I'm only talking about people that want the product but don't want the product as it's sold. They want to be catered to differently, to have the product produced in a way that they want.

Now I hate the concept of blind buy in its entirety for all the reasons mentioned. But it's popular in Japan for whatever reason. So it's a product and market strategy that GW have jumped on board and produced for. So be it. But the entitlement of demanding that it be made in a way 'you' (not you you) want when it's not aimed at you just because you might like it, is also what I have issue with.

Is expressing a preference really the same as a demand, though...?

I'm seeing a lot of people in this thread doing the former. Not sure anyone's actually done the latter.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Where arenthey going to sell these?

I can't imagine seeing them in hobby stores competing with regular Warhammer models.

I can. Easily. In fact i see it everytime one of these sets release.

The largest of my local stores always orders several displays of these things.
Some have sold quicker than others. Most of them sell 1 or 2 figures at a time - & not just to the same several people.
All of them eventually sell through.
If you want a full display (like our one DG player did) you have to specifically tell the shop to order you one. Otherwise there it is on the shelf & good luck on your pull...

Another local shop sometimes stocks a display.
They put it in the Sci-Fi model section near the Gundams.
Most sell to truly random customers, not the 40k crowd. Hell some of the 40k players weren't even aware the shop had the last set (because they don't ever venture into the "hobby" sections of the store.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
It's like complaining there's soy sauce in Asian food. Or that a pachinko machine doesn't work exactly like a western slot machine...

It is completely unlike either of those things.

The method of obtainment and the unpredictable price are what people are complaining about. They already like soy sauce and pachinko, because "plastic Space Marine models" are the analogue to the food and games in your attempted comparisons.

The method of obtainment is part of the product, it's the entire point of the product. It's how they were produced and sold in the market they were designed for. You're complaining about a product format for a particular market and culture, hence my analogy. What the product is, is irrelevant. If you want a direct comparison, you're complaining that a limited edition model is limited edition, when that was the point of its release.

The blind sale is a feature of the product for the market. If you want products from that market, you have to get them that way. That market's format is obviously preferable to GW and the customers, or they would just sell those models in a standard format in that market to begin with. Undermining that market to cater to you is not worth their time.

GW made it possible to buy the full collection in every prior Heroes Version, though. People complain that they changed it to blinds only when it was possible to avoid blinds before.

I always thought the original runs were to capture the Asian market, who apparently have a thing for blind box purchases.

Having just been in Singapore, I saw a lot of collectible shops with customers shaking and listening to various boxes of figurines.

That said, not being able to guarantee the full set from buying a box is different. My Plague Marine Heroes (full set including the Sorceror) came via a Japan based Swede (could have been Norwegian) who offered his services via the Facebook group often linked on here.

Still, if one waits long enough, maybe the full set will be in a Kill Team starter set much like the Plague Marine and Primaris Heroes were.

Doubt it myself but they could.

Not getting the full set is the big difference to regular blind boxes here

Like Lego is selling blind packs for their mini figs for ages now, but buying a full box always guaranteed the full set so anyone who wants that could get it rather easily

Taking that out because GW want more money from said collectors than what they would pay for the full box is the issue here not that blind packs exist in the first place

Snip

New rumour drop from Valrak, outlining a new Terminator themed big box coming later in autumn. Rumoured contents are current Indomi Captain, Indomi Chaplain, 5 marine Terminator squad, plus totally new Terminator Ancient and 10 new Assault Terminators with their standard goodies (LC/TH&SS)

This is very welcome news for me, as I've waited for the new Ancient and Assault terminators for some time already..

 tauist wrote:
New rumour drop from Valrak, outlining a new Terminator themed big box coming later in autumn. Rumoured contents are current Indomi Captain, Indomi Chaplain, 5 marine Terminator squad, plus totally new Terminator Ancient and 10 new Assault Terminators with their standard goodies (LC/TH&SS)

This is very welcome news for me, as I've waited for the new Ancient and Assault terminators for some time already..

My ever-growing Deathwing approves of this.

 Hellebore wrote:

Now I hate the concept of blind buy in its entirety for all the reasons mentioned. But it's popular in Japan for whatever reason. So it's a product and market strategy that GW have jumped on board and produced for. So be it. But the entitlement of demanding that it be made in a way 'you' (not you you) want when it's not aimed at you just because you might like it, is also what I have issue with.

So, lets talk about the pros of blind buy. First and foremost, blind buy is a mass market product. You're selling huge volumes of stuff to major chains that sell it to all manner of customers. Dedicated hobbiests for sure, but also tons of people that just think it looks neat and will pick up one or two as something to buy. You get volumes that let you really capitalize on the savings of plastic production. At the end of the day, these things sell for about half of what GW normally sells single figures for.

The issue with mass market is that the people selling your product know nothing about it, don't want to know anything about it, and will drop it if it starts to clog their inventory. SKU bloat is an instant dealbreaker. Blind buy is selling retailers a single SKU that is the "blind box" the same as you sell a box of candy bars or anything else at the checkout aisle. It's also at a price where plenty of people will consider it as a frivolous, one off purchase where any higher starts to hit "investment" levels.

The other issue is the danger of duds. Say you ship boxes of 6 unique figures with 1 figure per box clearly marked, but one is a dud. The other 5 sell out, but to restock those, the retailer (which is not going to bother with 6 unique SKUs) has to keep ordering that dud to stock the winners and when that dud is clogging their shelves.... they drop the line entirely for something else. So part of the point of the blind box is enabling duds that people buy whether they want them or not.

That last bit is a big part of why the whole system is as popular as it is. A lot of the duds are somebody's absolutely favorite character and under normal means, they'll just never sell enough to justify making merch of them. You shuffle them in with a few Naruto's or Gojo's or what have you and people that really want those duds get to feel supported. They get to see their relatively niche interest in major stores and a chance to buy that weird character that is their niche within the niche and generally speaking, it's a LOT cheaper than it would be otherwise.

None of that is to say it's a "good" system and most of them hugely exploit people who fall into them. I just think it helps to understand the market that drives them beyond looking to make suckers out of gambling addicts. It's especially helpful in a product like this that really isn't aimed at leveraging the game behind these figures to really drain as much cash as possible from its existing players.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Now I hate the concept of blind buy in its entirety for all the reasons mentioned. But it's popular in Japan for whatever reason. So it's a product and market strategy that GW have jumped on board and produced for. So be it. But the entitlement of demanding that it be made in a way 'you' (not you you) want when it's not aimed at you just because you might like it, is also what I have issue with.

So, lets talk about the pros of blind buy. First and foremost, blind buy is a mass market product. You're selling huge volumes of stuff to major chains that sell it to all manner of customers. Dedicated hobbiests for sure, but also tons of people that just think it looks neat and will pick up one or two as something to buy. You get volumes that let you really capitalize on the savings of plastic production. At the end of the day, these things sell for about half of what GW normally sells single figures for.

The issue with mass market is that the people selling your product know nothing about it, don't want to know anything about it, and will drop it if it starts to clog their inventory. SKU bloat is an instant dealbreaker. Blind buy is selling retailers a single SKU that is the "blind box" the same as you sell a box of candy bars or anything else at the checkout aisle. It's also at a price where plenty of people will consider it as a frivolous, one off purchase where any higher starts to hit "investment" levels.

The other issue is the danger of duds. Say you ship boxes of 6 unique figures with 1 figure per box clearly marked, but one is a dud. The other 5 sell out, but to restock those, the retailer (which is not going to bother with 6 unique SKUs) has to keep ordering that dud to stock the winners and when that dud is clogging their shelves.... they drop the line entirely for something else. So part of the point of the blind box is enabling duds that people buy whether they want them or not.

That last bit is a big part of why the whole system is as popular as it is. A lot of the duds are somebody's absolutely favorite character and under normal means, they'll just never sell enough to justify making merch of them. You shuffle them in with a few Naruto's or Gojo's or what have you and people that really want those duds get to feel supported. They get to see their relatively niche interest in major stores and a chance to buy that weird character that is their niche within the niche and generally speaking, it's a LOT cheaper than it would be otherwise.

None of that is to say it's a "good" system and most of them hugely exploit people who fall into them. I just think it helps to understand the market that drives them beyond looking to make suckers out of gambling addicts. It's especially helpful in a product like this that really isn't aimed at leveraging the game behind these figures to really drain as much cash as possible from its existing players.

Any idea of where these are going to be sold stateside? They might be the perfect little gift for a wannabe space marine player... mainly to see if they'll actually build/paint it before investing a chunk of change.

Still seems surprising that there isn't the option to order specific models at a GW store, given that the complete set is also a Kill Team.

I'd have thought the combo would have been something worth doing as well, blind buys for other retailers but then get the ones you're missing from a Warhammer store. Though I suppose the other retailers might take issue there.

Where are have the previous ones been available?