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With the loss of granularity in points for units this edition (which is even more extreme with knights) changing points seems like the worst way to balance the game. Having to switch out entire units really hurts people who enjoy building and painting models. If something is too good, I think it's better to change rules than points.

If the wound pool for big knights was too high, why not simply reduce the number of wounds? That would let people keep their models on the table.

The Black Adder wrote:
If the wound pool for big knights was too high, why not simply reduce the number of wounds? That would let people keep their models on the table.

Considering the Knights just traded Toughness for wounds, I think it would be a bit of an insult to players to remove those wounds.

I know some people don't, but if you collect Knights and don't magnetize you are insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
With the Abominant at 325 and Desecrator/Despoiler/Rampager at 335, it only took 1 Abominant to get 6 Knights in your list if you take only these 4 hulls. Take 3 Abominants and you can squeeze in Ruinator into your 6. This seems like a Quantity is a Quality type of list.

New points means you will never see 6 big Knights in a 2K List, nor a crazy 5 Knight Tyrant list either.

The funny thing about this is that the points really don't necessarily reflect quality. Fitting in a Ruinator isn't really something you'd want to do when its probably a worse model than the Abominant. I really wish it had been only given a 5 point hike to put them on equal footing rather than go up to the Despoiler. At least its not somehow MORE expensive anymore. Tyrants are surprisingly low output for their cost. It honestly probably could have been left at 395 and I'd still much rather take a Despoiler at 375. Their main guns are just wildly inconsistent and really all they bring. Honestly, both of them kind of have fundamental datasheet issues that make their points kind of irrelevant as they're just not very compelling to take.

 LunarSol wrote:
I know some people don't, but if you collect Knights and don't magnetize you are insane.

In my defense there isn't really anything to magnetize on Castigators/Lancers/Karnivores/Brigands.

Though I have considered magnetizing the arms on the Lancers for easier storage.

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I know some people don't, but if you collect Knights and don't magnetize you are insane.

In my defense there isn't really anything to magnetize on Castigators/Lancers/Karnivores/Brigands.

Though I have considered magnetizing the arms on the Lancers for easier storage.

You just make a War Dog and its a Karnivore/Brigand/Stalker/Huntsman(?) just fine. I will buy a Cerastus when they sell me a Cerastus kit. Definitely not buying a whole Knight for one loadout, but yeah, if you want one its sadly not getting options.

The Black Adder wrote:
With the loss of granularity in points for units this edition (which is even more extreme with knights) changing points seems like the worst way to balance the game. Having to switch out entire units really hurts people who enjoy building and painting models. If something is too good, I think it's better to change rules than points.

If the wound pool for big knights was too high, why not simply reduce the number of wounds? That would let people keep their models on the table.

Fixing small points imbalances with datasheet adjustments is insane. It would be ridiculously difficult to adjust a unit datasheet to get the results that a 5-10 point adjustment accomplishes.

Then there is the issue of lack of consistency. It is one thing to say “remove a unit from your list” to gain balance with other list. It is entirely different to say “all the units in your army now function slightly differently” to gain balance.

 LunarSol wrote:

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I know some people don't, but if you collect Knights and don't magnetize you are insane.

In my defense there isn't really anything to magnetize on Castigators/Lancers/Karnivores/Brigands.

Though I have considered magnetizing the arms on the Lancers for easier storage.

You just make a War Dog and its a Karnivore/Brigand/Stalker/Huntsman(?) just fine. I will buy a Cerastus when they sell me a Cerastus kit. Definitely not buying a whole Knight for one loadout, but yeah, if you want one its sadly not getting options.

You buy a Cerastus (your pick of wich kit) & then talk to those who have printers. Problem solved.

But this falls into the same category of me magnetizing stubbers/meltas. WHY would I bother? I don't want/need to ever change my Brigands. Gatling cannon + Melta arm (& rocket pod) is what's needed for the job. And the Karnivore (or anything else I'd maganetize it as)? It's on the shelf for now as far as being in a Knights list (maybe it'll show up as support for my generic Chaos SM) - I need it's points to keep my Cerastus knights on the board.

ccs wrote:

But this falls into the same category of me magnetizing stubbers/meltas. WHY would I bother? I don't want/need to ever change my Brigands. Gatling cannon + Melta arm (& rocket pod) is what's needed for the job. And the Karnivore (or anything else I'd maganetize it as)? It's on the shelf for now as far as being in a Knights list (maybe it'll show up as support for my generic Chaos SM) - I need it's points to keep my Cerastus knights on the board.

I'm saying sometimes I want to give a Karnivore a gatling gun and call it a Stalker. It just reduces the number of kits needed overall.

 LunarSol wrote:
I know some people don't, but if you collect Knights and don't magnetize you are insane.

Some of us don't use a unified paint scheme, which can make it a tad harder to justify swapping weapons around.

Besides, as a Tzeentch fan, I'm already insane...

 BorderCountess wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I know some people don't, but if you collect Knights and don't magnetize you are insane.

Some of us don't use a unified paint scheme, which can make it a tad harder to justify swapping weapons around.

Besides, as a Tzeentch fan, I'm already insane...

Just finishing up converting my Knights to Chaos myself. Definitely took me a bit to come up with something that could keep the arms interchangeable while having a bit of all the gods. Chaos Deathwatch? Yeah, Chaos Deathwatch.

So, Vulkan.

Did anything change in his Datasheet?

 BorderCountess wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I know some people don't, but if you collect Knights and don't magnetize you are insane.

Some of us don't use a unified paint scheme, which can make it a tad harder to justify swapping weapons around.

Besides, as a Tzeentch fan, I'm already insane...

See... this is why my grey (as in unpainted) Knights are superior to your painted chaos Knights

 Platuan4th wrote:

The Black Adder wrote:
If the wound pool for big knights was too high, why not simply reduce the number of wounds? That would let people keep their models on the table.

Considering the Knights just traded Toughness for wounds, I think it would be a bit of an insult to players to remove those wounds.

More or less insulting than telling them to leave their big expensive model on the shelf?

It doesn't have to be wounds, but if the issue is too many very tough wounds on the table, then except under specific scenarios, it doesn't matter if you have fewer models or fewer wounds per model. I would have though it was better to let knight players use the models they have, but its not my problem, just food for thought.

I think there is more to it than less wounds on the table. Reducing the number of Big Knights also means less firepower on the table and less board control on the table.

Now supplementing the Knights with Armigers certainly provides other options, but they are much easier to kill than a Knight.

 alextroy wrote:
I think there is more to it than less wounds on the table. Reducing the number of Big Knights also means less firepower on the table and less board control on the table.

Now supplementing the Knights with Armigers certainly provides other options, but they are much easier to kill than a Knight.

And Imperial Knights have a lot less variants than Chaos Knights in that department.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, Vulkan.

Did anything change in his Datasheet?

Comparing the stats in the app (with a pic of the new mini) to the codex:

Base statline unchanged
Bolt pistol same
Gauntlet of the Forge shooting gained the pistol keyword
spear unchanged
old abilities unchanged.

New ability added: Inspiring commander- if you include this model in you army, until the end of battle, non-character models in infernus squads have OC2 while not battleshocked.

leader squads selection unchanged
gained the tacticus keyword.
100 points, on a 40mm base.