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 Da Boss wrote:
They've never nailed the look of the haemonculus stuff for me, it's too uniform and clean looking. I also don't like how buff the creations all are. I'd expect much more body horror than is on display.

Most of my wracks I made from gluing plastic zombies and dark elves together. Big skirts and exposed organs is where it's at.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It is ludicrous there’s no Traitor Guard/Lost and the Damned.

Just as the Imperial Guard are the backbone of the Imperium’s armed forces, so it is for Chaos. The devoted/deluded who die in their billions every day in praise of the gods. Without whom the paltry numbers of Traitor Astartes wouldn’t stand a chance of overthrowing The Emperor.

agreed. The hobby potential of a traitor guard army would be too enticing to resist.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It is ludicrous there’s no Traitor Guard/Lost and the Damned.

Just as the Imperial Guard are the backbone of the Imperium’s armed forces, so it is for Chaos. The devoted/deluded who die in their billions every day in praise of the gods. Without whom the paltry numbers of Traitor Astartes wouldn’t stand a chance of overthrowing The Emperor.

agreed. The hobby potential of a traitor guard army would be too enticing to resist.

Perhaps you could combine the actual traitor guard models, mutants and cultist with genestealer cult rules?

I think sticking the label “traitor guard” on them is honestly possibly holding them back. GW still leads by enthusiasm internally; if no-one is interested in a project it won’t even be presented to the bean counters to weigh the cost/benefit ratio. So if they’re all stuck on “traitor guard” being nothing but spiky Cadians then it’s not a surprise no-one is going for it.

Who here lives in Nottingham? Go over there at lunch, find a staffer at Bugman’s, and make Codex Renegades and Rejects sound like a fun time. Put the meme in their heads. Not just turned guard but conscripted factory workers, cultists and outcast mutants*. All led by anything from a cult demagogue through an ousted planetary noble to a down-on-their-luck actual traitor space marine who’s taking what he can get after his former warlord detected his “subtle” coup plans and banished him.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Needs to be so much more.

Spoiler:

It’s not just trained Turncoats. It’s the oppressed citizen mob. It’s the outcast mutant. It’s the witches driven out from society, all bearing a grudge. It’s the Abhumans promised a life of vengeance for their third class citizen status foisted upon them through accident of birth.

It’s the inevitable repercussions of The Imperium’s uncaring, unthinking oppression and brutality.

It’s the seeds of its own destruction sown out of its arrogance and aloofness.

The forces which sure, on their own are quite probably too poorly lead and fractious to be a credible threat to most worlds, but which are in constant supply, forcing the Imperium to literal distraction. The little cuts that resolutely refuse to heal, bleeding off ever more of its foe’s potential. The infection vector the Imperium has dug into its own flesh.

And there are many shades. Whilst I consider “Guard but Spiky” the least interesting personally? It’s the amalgam of those forces that had my attention. Not everyone joining in the rebellion will know it’s true aims (you get a daemon, and you get a daemon, and you get a daemon and everyone gets damnation, rrrrraaaaaay!). But that otherwise uncorrupted Imperial citizens will take up arms alongside the rebels is just too interesting a lens on the setting and mankind’s failings to not be well represented on the tabletop.

IA:13 was and is a magnificent incarnation. A list of such mind boggling combinations and possibilities you were well advised to first envisage your renegade force to narrow s down, then go about cobbling it together,

But it shouldn’t just be a convertor and kitbashers dream. Like the GSC, it should be a legitimate force on the shelves.

Unfortunately the current 40K style of writing rules is incompatible with that approach. You'd need something like the 30K militia list to do it. 40K though with its no models no rules would be a LatD Codex made of all non-CSM units currently in the CSM + maybe some unit of Beastmen, a sprue of abhumans, some Tank that's strangely unique to LatD and not just a stolen imperial tank and a traitor guard heavy weapons Team that can only take a Lascannon or a bespoke ectoplasmagun and nothing else.
It would suffer from the same problem the current CSM Codex has - very rigid and uniform style of rules/options in a faction that should be about converting.

Honestly, it sounds like a pitch for a line of Kill Team kits that could eventually be tossed haphazardly into an "Agents of Chaos" book. As sarcastic as that sounds, its actually something with a ton of potential if done with a modicum of effort.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Needs to be so much more.

Spoiler:

It’s not just trained Turncoats. It’s the oppressed citizen mob. It’s the outcast mutant. It’s the witches driven out from society, all bearing a grudge. It’s the Abhumans promised a life of vengeance for their third class citizen status foisted upon them through accident of birth.

It’s the inevitable repercussions of The Imperium’s uncaring, unthinking oppression and brutality.

It’s the seeds of its own destruction sown out of its arrogance and aloofness.

The forces which sure, on their own are quite probably too poorly lead and fractious to be a credible threat to most worlds, but which are in constant supply, forcing the Imperium to literal distraction. The little cuts that resolutely refuse to heal, bleeding off ever more of its foe’s potential. The infection vector the Imperium has dug into its own flesh.

And there are many shades. Whilst I consider “Guard but Spiky” the least interesting personally? It’s the amalgam of those forces that had my attention. Not everyone joining in the rebellion will know it’s true aims (you get a daemon, and you get a daemon, and you get a daemon and everyone gets damnation, rrrrraaaaaay!). But that otherwise uncorrupted Imperial citizens will take up arms alongside the rebels is just too interesting a lens on the setting and mankind’s failings to not be well represented on the tabletop.

IA:13 was and is a magnificent incarnation. A list of such mind boggling combinations and possibilities you were well advised to first envisage your renegade force to narrow s down, then go about cobbling it together,

But it shouldn’t just be a convertor and kitbashers dream. Like the GSC, it should be a legitimate force on the shelves.

Unfortunately the current 40K style of writing rules is incompatible with that approach. You'd need something like the 30K militia list to do it. 40K though with its no models no rules would be a LatD Codex made of all non-CSM units currently in the CSM + maybe some unit of Beastmen, a sprue of abhumans, some Tank that's strangely unique to LatD and not just a stolen imperial tank and a traitor guard heavy weapons Team that can only take a Lascannon or a bespoke ectoplasmagun and nothing else.
It would suffer from the same problem the current CSM Codex has - very rigid and uniform style of rules/options in a faction that should be about converting.

30k Militia list is essentially IA:13’s list. I’m not familiar enough with either to say if it’s close to a 1 to 1 translation. But it’s bloody close.

I agree we can’t realistically expect that for 40K. Not in that form. At the risk of sounding Hobby Snob? IA:13 and Heresy Militia are aimed at Established Hobbyists. Those quite happy to scratchbuild and convert an entire army from lots of different things. Which is great.

But 40K is the standardised, accessible game. Which is also great, as it helps remove elements of Who Has The Deepest Pockets having some kind of edge. Just at the expense of army selection options which let you go as bonkers as you want. But it still can be done. Granted, it would ideally be a massive undertaking for the Design Studio to ensure a wide raft of options from launch. The sort where “this is technically two, three, maybe four armies stood on each other’s shoulders wearing a nicked Munitorum Issue Greatcoat” is the impression, allowing players wanting to adopt that army to pick and choose or specialise.

It could be done though. And would hopefully be a riot of crazy.

I mean, it probably wouldn't be very effective, but couldn't you play a LatD army using the Imperial Guard and Agents of the Imperium codexes? Just lean into things like primaris psykers, ogryns, use Death Watch to field some CSM vets.

Obligatory 'just use Legends' post

I don't think we're far off if you're including a few legends. The modern 40K way of reflavouring units would be via different leaders (assuming that this is still a CSM list).

But you've got your maniac true-believer cultists, led by the Dark Commune or a Firebrand.
You've got the citizen mob of firearm cultists, just backing the rest up or being riled up by a Dark Apostle.
You've got beastmen and big mutants/ogryn work gangs and the Ogryn beast handlers.
Chaos touched mutants with the accursed mutants.
Traitor guard with their leaders (and perhaps tanks with a Brood Brother's detachment).
Rogue psykers and their enthralled cultist.
All manner of weird smaller things with the mutoid vermin squads.
Then finally a small warband of Astartes at the core of it, finally emerging into the open to strike the final blow against the Imperial Governor.

And/or some summoned daemons depending on how far along the ritual has gotten.

The only unit that's kind of missing the mutant rabble, but I think that's the tricky one where it's up to you to decide if they have thrown their lot in fully with the cult and are the guys with the Accursed mutants. If they're just a particularly dishevelled cultist mob (ranged or otherwise) or bigger and tougher mutants infiltrating via the sewers as beastmen.

The one unit I'd also hope to see would the cultist bikers from the Secret Level episode, and a return of the Legends cultists with firearms option.

Can't you use Chaos Knights and their Grotmas Cultist horde of expendables?

Traitor Guard as a standalone faction I think would get tons of excitement from veteran imperial guard players, chaos players that love to do conversions, etc, but that would also have almost nothing to be its identity other than not-quite-imperial-guard not-quite-genestealer-cults.

I don’t think it could stand on its own as a whole faction as is.

It would have to lean heavily into LatD. Spiky Guard wouldn't cut it alone as a sales driver, but as a framework for a bunch of weird stuff - possessed, mutants, spawn, abhumans, spontaneous daemon engines - it could work.

 Dawnbringer wrote:
I mean, it probably wouldn't be very effective, but couldn't you play a LatD army using the Imperial Guard and Agents of the Imperium codexes? Just lean into things like primaris psykers, ogryns, use Death Watch to field some CSM vets.

That was pretty much how I did my Genestealer Cult Army in 5E through 7E. Just Guard rules with Hybrids as officers and Magi as Primaris Psykers, etc. My one vet squad was entirely made of RT hybrids. I almost used a 40K zoat as Nork Deaddog. It was a glorious time.



But that sort of thing is discouraged these days...

 ph34r wrote:
Traitor Guard as a standalone faction I think would get tons of excitement from veteran imperial guard players, chaos players that love to do conversions, etc, but that would also have almost nothing to be its identity other than not-quite-imperial-guard not-quite-genestealer-cults.

I don’t think it could stand on its own as a whole faction as is.

It'd be a good Grotmas detachment though. IG but with the Chaos keyword to bring in Daemons and perhaps some Damned units as a "reverse Brood Brothers"

Partly why I'm curious how they'll do the rumoured Dark Mech, if we see a sneak preview of them during the end campaign of 10th Ed*. A core Chaos codex with CSM that can drawn on things like Daemons and Knights, works a little bit easier than the myriad Imperial codices and agents where you're limited more by the number of units rather than a percentage of the army.

* Whilst Dark Mech are a Valrak 11th ed rumour, there were rumours of Vashtorr getting some of his own units that came out around the Thousand Sons robot rumours.

Assuming that the Dark Mech seen is not for Horus Heresy instead of 40k. since they first showed up in LI

It needs to be all these things.

Chaos should feel Chaotic. A riot of different forces and cults eventually coming together to overthrow their erstwhile Imperial Masters.

There should be God Aligned Cultists with different perks and drawbacks to General Cultists.

We see some of this in AoS, but not in a way I think it especially well suited to 40K. Hedonites and the Khorne dudes are more societies unto themselves than the Cults described in 40K.

Of course my grand vision of Chaos is a single hefty tome, from which you can assemble a single faction army if that’s your jam, or do A Little Bit Of Everything.

Big on ambition, short on practicality ?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It needs to be all these things.

Chaos should feel Chaotic. A riot of different forces and cults eventually coming together to overthrow their erstwhile Imperial Masters.

There should be God Aligned Cultists with different perks and drawbacks to General Cultists.

We see some of this in AoS, but not in a way I think it especially well suited to 40K. Hedonites and the Khorne dudes are more societies unto themselves than the Cults described in 40K.

Of course my grand vision of Chaos is a single hefty tome, from which you can assemble a single faction army if that’s your jam, or do A Little Bit Of Everything.

Big on ambition, short on practicality ?

I'd personally be very happy with that.

Cultist-wise, we're nearly there. You've got the Jakhals for Khorne (still disappointed they weren't khorngor beastmen though), the Poxwalkers for Nurgle, the Tzaangor for Tzeench, and... they chickened out of giving us some nice gimpy Slaaneshi cultists. But they are all tied up in their dedicated books... I think you can take the cult marines in a vanilla CSM army, but don't know if you can have the cultists.

Other upside of a hefty Chaos Tome is it can be dropped on particularly irritating children. Just remember to say “oops”.

I had forgotten about the Jakhals stuff. Tzaangors and Pox Walkers are also welcome additions, but all three are, to my mind, separate categories of Chaos.

Tzaangor are born to it. They no choice in worshipping Tzeentch.

Jakhals are your suitably dedicated Khornate Cultists.

Poxwalkers are forced corruption (can’t remember if they’re Zombies or not, but either way their status was forced upon them)

I’m not necessarily arguing all things for every God. That risks oversaturation and a loss of unique flavours. But each God should have at least a couple.

For instance? To go alongside the Jakhals? How about mortals driven to insane rage against their will? Think Archo-Flagellant/Tech Thrall style. Otherwise innocent Just People abducted and forcibly converted into disposable living weapons. Something to be hurled time and time again into the enemy to tie them up, relying on frenzied brutality over any particular skill with a blade.

Tzeentch? I really like the concept of the Kairic Acolytes. Their buff physique is the result of shared, specific magic. When the battle is done they revert to their civvy form, the better to slip away and continue their machinations.

Nurgle? Maybe some “medics”. Cultists that promise to help cure the enemy with their vile concoctions and surgical attentions. Mostly cure them of Not Being Ill In The First Place. The potential market there is enormous, I trust you’ll agree.

Slaanesh? Really going Out There? Perhaps just a relative handful of mortal followers. Enchanters/Enchantresses that drive the enemy to attack each other, twisting their perceptions to do so.

These are just spit balling and off the top of my head. But who knows, maybe I’ll provide inspiration to another.

I wouldn't be surprise if Slaanesh cultists and Slaangors come to EC for wave two, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Khorngors added to EC next ed.

Some units like this could also be added via KT.

It seems somebody goofed up and released the Balance Dataslate a little early for Android users. It has since been rolled back but plenty of screenshots and stuff got leaked onto Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1nf63kn/wh_app_updated/?share_id=XHSrBSf_OmXSoz6Vow6oR&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

 ZergSmasher wrote:
It seems somebody goofed up and released the Balance Dataslate a little early for Android users. It has since been rolled back but plenty of screenshots and stuff got leaked onto Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1nf63kn/wh_app_updated/?share_id=XHSrBSf_OmXSoz6Vow6oR&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

They're up (in English) on the Warhammer Community site too now.
Translated ones are due next week.

Doesn't look like anything changed core rules wise.

Guess I missed the boat on DE reveals - but yeah, not that impressed.

I think unlike other people I "don't" like the Archon. I mean sure its an upgrade on the current one (amongst the worst models in the range imo, sorry Vipoid I quite like the Haemi by comparison). Tried converting mine but there's only so much you can do without starting completely from scratch (probably a good idea tbh.)

But... all versions looks like something you could have made out of a Kabalite Killteam box. Take Kabalite, add fancy cloak and a bigger head peice/helmet and done. Maybe there's nothing wrong with that but you aren't exactly impressing me.

Initially really didn't like Malys, but some of the pictures have persuaded me over a little. But tbh I can't help looking at the model, flashing to Yvraine and thinking its the Malys at home. Okay yes she's on a normal base size - and maybe the Yvraine model is sort of showing its age 8~ years in. But there was something cool about the trailing cloak and the cat. This just feels like too little, too late. GW have already made "female elf with fan and sword". Yes it should have been Malys the first time - but that was GW's decision, not mine.

All in all its probably the first DE codex I'm not going to buy, because why bother? Blink and we'll be 11th. Which I assume won't be a full wipe, but you never know. I guess GW would claim it has to happen to someone because of a 3 year sales strategy - but I can't see the point in not having an edition's codex for years if there isn't a big release behind it.

Looks like Cawl got a rewrite. I'm not current on AdMech... is he better now?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Looks like Cawl got a rewrite. I'm not current on AdMech... is he better now?

Part of me wants to assume yes, since he also just went up 40 points. But it's AdMech, so who the hell really knows?

Tyel wrote:
I think unlike other people I "don't" like the Archon. I mean sure its an upgrade on the current one (amongst the worst models in the range imo, sorry Vipoid I quite like the Haemi by comparison).

Aside - I'd hate it less if it hadn't been made in the era of no-model-no-rules.

The previous model had:
- A blade (looks like either a poison or power weapon)
- A poison-claw mecha-glove.
- A Liquifier Gun
- An artefact that looks like something from Hellrazer

Meanwhile, the current model has
- A blade (looks like an ordinary blade)
- A syringe (nothing)
- A little pistol (might as well be nothing)
- A mechanical claw-thing

The old model didn't have any 'wasted' arms. As well as the two melee weapons, it also had a decent gun and even an artefact.

Meanwhile, the new one has a basic pistol and maybe one interesting melee weapon (the claw). The other two arms basically amount to nothing. There's also no longer any hint of an artefact or anything beyond 'melee dude with a pitiful pistol'.

Again, I wouldn't mind as much if we were playing an older edition. The problem is that we're well into no-model, no-rules, and so it's rather tiresome that a unit that should be bristling with esoteric weapons and artefacts has none whatsoever because some sod on the design team couldn't be arsed putting anything on the model.

I'm not sure we are totally in the NMNR era yet as the Grey Knights just got a Codex where you need to make your own Grey Knight Terminator Librarian... and some of us are still a little unsure of what the Techmarine is supposed to look like.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I'm not sure we are totally in the NMNR era yet as the Grey Knights just got a Codex where you need to make your own Grey Knight Terminator Librarian... and some of us are still a little unsure of what the Techmarine is supposed to look like.

What do you mean you don't know what a GK Technarine is supposed to look like?

You take a GK power armor body & glue a tech marine pack/arm to its back.
Done.

Then you glue on any other bitz you think are required.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I'm not sure we are totally in the NMNR era yet as the Grey Knights just got a Codex where you need to make your own Grey Knight Terminator Librarian... and some of us are still a little unsure of what the Techmarine is supposed to look like.

That's like saying you don't know what a Black Templar Gladiator looks like.

GW makes a Terminator Librarian. Paint him silver. GW also makes a Techmarine. Paint him silver, too.

Aside from Smash Captains and a bunch of Dark Eldar, I don't think there's a single model with current rules that actually requires kitbashing.

With the deldar codex, here's a list of remaining finecast minis with rules.

SM: Pedro Kantor, Cato Sicarius
DA: Sammael
CSM: Huron Blackheart
Necrons: Trazyn, Deceiver
IG: Sly Marbo
Orks: Weirdboy
Tau: Firesight Team

Also a side note, referring to the earlier convo of renegades & heretics. And man, the answer is so obvious for this now that detachments work the way they do. A chaos imperial guard detachment that removes commissars and imperial allies, lets you ally with daemons and chaos knights, and has chaos flavor is all you need.

Really they could be doing so much more with detachments. Like marines teaming with guard is one of the most common things in the setting, and there's no detachment doing that? What gives?

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I'm not sure we are totally in the NMNR era yet as the Grey Knights just got a Codex where you need to make your own Grey Knight Terminator Librarian... and some of us are still a little unsure of what the Techmarine is supposed to look like.

What do you mean you don't know what a GK Technarine is supposed to look like?

You take a GK power armor body & glue a tech marine pack/arm to its back.
Done.

Then you glue on any other bitz you think are required.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I'm not sure we are totally in the NMNR era yet as the Grey Knights just got a Codex where you need to make your own Grey Knight Terminator Librarian... and some of us are still a little unsure of what the Techmarine is supposed to look like.

That's like saying you don't know what a Black Templar Gladiator looks like.

GW makes a Terminator Librarian. Paint him silver. GW also makes a Techmarine. Paint him silver, too.

Aside from Smash Captains and a bunch of Dark Eldar, I don't think there's a single model with current rules that actually requires kitbashing.

OK. Before we break out the pitchforks and torches and hunt down Dr. Biosas for his crimes against the forum...

They did release a Black Templar Gladiator Sprue that came with the extra multi-melta. I know this, because I was wrong about this existing. (I can hunt for the thread where I gave bad advice if you want.)

Also, I was trying to bring up that there are models that still exist that require kitbashing in the current codicies.

The two that came to mind were part of the new GK Codex.

You are right that the current trend is to take a Space Marine Librarian in Terminator armour, paint him silver and say, "Yep he's now a Grey Knight."

But a dedicated GK model doesn't exist for the line. That's all I'm saying.