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https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Primaris_Space_Marines

what do you guys think of this? If they made chaos primaris models would you guys like them, or would you dislike them?
Personally, I feel this would be a horrible idea, one of the things that draws people to CSM is that they grew disillusioned and betrayed the imperium by siding with Horus. Many of them are veterans and despise the Imperium in it's current form, they are a little sympathetic, actually. Now compare this to a primaris marine who has been taught that the Emperor is a god, and perfect in every way and the imperium is the most glorious civilization ever and to abhor the xeno and heretic. It's definitely possible, but a primaris marine falling to chaos feels more like an angsty teenage boy thinking everyone hates him because people once laughed at him associating with someone whose family was killed in front of his eyes. Lengthy metaphor aside, it just seems a little greedy and disrespectful to the setting to me. Not trying to start a Skub war here but what is the general opinion about this possible lore?

 bullisariuscowl wrote:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Primaris_Space_Marines

what do you guys think of this? If they made chaos primaris models would you guys like them, or would you dislike them?
Personally, I feel this would be a horrible idea, one of the things that draws people to CSM is that they grew disillusioned and betrayed the imperium by siding with Horus. Many of them are veterans and despise the Imperium in it's current form, they are a little sympathetic, actually. Now compare this to a primaris marine who has been taught that the Emperor is a god, and perfect in every way and the imperium is the most glorious civilization ever and to abhor the xeno and heretic. It's definitely possible, but a primaris marine falling to chaos feels more like an angsty teenage boy thinking everyone hates him because people once laughed at him associating with someone whose family was killed in front of his eyes. Lengthy metaphor aside, it just seems a little greedy and disrespectful to the setting to me. Not trying to start a Skub war here but what is the general opinion about this possible lore?

They already exist in the fluff in a couple of places. One chapter had it's primaris reinforcements declared traitorous after the chapter they were reinforcing turned whilst they were on the way, the custodes decided to kill them as they felt the risk was too great. note these are chaos worshipping primaris, but they're not imperial at that point. The bulk of them came about as a result of the arks of omen angron book where he destroyed a pychic beacon (name eludes me) and the subsequent eruption of khorne powered warp energy made everything not a custode, sister of silence or grey knight in the 5th crusade fleet turn to khorne immediately.

So I'm fine with those, but "bile did it" would be a bit weak and tbh primaris have no real reason or explanation for looking gnarled and baroque so it would be a hard sell visually imo.

The fluff clearly has no problem with "Chaos Primaris" existing.

I had a half fancy to do a Brazen Drakes+Bile army when reading those stories, but it never went anywhere (and I'm too lazy for lots of conversions.)

I don't think its strictly necessary though because CSM can easily just be made bigger because "the Warp/Gods/Bile did it" if GW wants to go that way with the models. As it is though CSM have had a relatively recent range update, so I doubt they'd be chucking in new stuff so quickly.

How to have Chaos Primaris.

Alpha Legionnaires, posing as the tattered remnants of a Chapter. Fleet deploys new Primaris bods, kit and tech.

YOINK!

Away into the warp. Don’t even have to stop and convert the Primaris Marines to your cause. Just…take the goodies and leg it.

Primaris are just normal marines with a few extra bits. And modern marines still go renegade and fall to chaos.

Are they going to be VotLW? No. Although I could see some vets trying to cross the rubicon of they got the bits from somewhere.

In universe, I see no problem with it. For an army identity/marketing POV, I see the allure in keeping them separate.

Primaris have fallen to chaos and will continue to do so in the future for the same reason non-primaris marines have fallen and will fall. Nothing about primaris really makes them chaos-proof.

Primaris are just truescale marines that got some awkward lore to explain why they look less squat than the rest of your army while the transition is underway. Eventually, GW will downplay the distinction between firstborn and primaris more and more until there's literally no difference.

There's no reason why Pimaris can't go renegade or fall to Chaos.
Indeed there seems to be examples of this happening already.

So I don't really care what lore they attach to it.

What I do care about is pretty simple: Do I like the models?
As there aren't really any Primaris CSM models yet I can't really answer the question.

bullisariuscowl wrote:One of the things that draws people to CSM is that they grew disillusioned and betrayed the imperium by siding with Horus. Many of them are veterans and despise the Imperium in it's current form, they are a little sympathetic, actually.

That's not true of all Chaos Marines though.

That only applies to the Veterans of the Long War, the ones who fought during the Heresy and might have been recruited/created directly by the Legions in the millennia after. But not all Chaos Space Marines fought during the Heresy.

Now compare this to a primaris marine who has been taught that the Emperor is a god, and perfect in every way and the imperium is the most glorious civilization ever and to abhor the xeno and heretic. It's definitely possible, but a primaris marine falling to chaos feels more like an angsty teenage boy thinking everyone hates him because people once laughed at him associating with someone whose family was killed in front of his eyes.

That's not different to any other loyalist post-heresy Marine falling to Chaos though - like the Red Corsairs, the Crimson Slaughter, the Scourged, the Pure, and the thirty Chapters of the Abyssal Crusade. There's no reason that Primaris Marines couldn't be corrupted in much the same way.

I don’t need a specific kit of "Chaos Primaris Marines", simply because the game needs everything more than yet another set of Primaris Marines with a new hat.
I could see them do Bile's Creations as a squad though and throw in the occasional MKX helmet and other armor parts so you could either interpret them as turned Primaris or Bile re-copying Primaris (because let's be honest, Bile made ugly Monster Marines before it was cool).

 Nevelon wrote:
Primaris are just normal marines with a few extra bits. And modern marines still go renegade and fall to chaos.

Are they going to be VotLW? No. Although I could see some vets trying to cross the rubicon of they got the bits from somewhere.

In universe, I see no problem with it. For an army identity/marketing POV, I see the allure in keeping them separate.

Not all Chaos Marines themselves are VotLW - they've done some reinforcement work, but the faction as a whole has the institutional knowledge to make the new inductees into the VotLW so any loss of knowledge is minimal plus its probably somewhat amoritized over the entire army else Abby would be a Super Veteran with incredibly high bonuses while the newest inductee would have no bonus or even potentially a negative modifier based on their unfamiliarity with what a VotLW would do in a given situation.

Choas primaris are inevitable. Many CSM are not from the traitor legions.

I just hope they do something different with them. In my mind something strange happens to primaris that give themselves to chaos and they go through rapid demonic mutations or become obsessed with being made part of demon engines.

CSM have to keep old marines in their ranks to retain their identity

mrFickle wrote:
Choas primaris are inevitable. Many CSM are not from the traitor legions.

I just hope they do something different with them. In my mind something strange happens to primaris that give themselves to chaos and they go through rapid demonic mutations or become obsessed with being made part of demon engines.

CSM have to keep old marines in their ranks to retain their identity

I don't think Primaris vs First Born will be an issue for Chaos. By the time they fluff Chaos Primaris the Primaris differentiation will be null anyway. They're already working that way as they cycle out the first born units for the Primaris versions.

Edit to Add: You MAY see a halfway point where Chaos Primaris are Renegades but not Chaos exactly - the chapters that are excommunicated, but haven't been pushed to Chaos etc yet.

I suppose we could see a time when there has been so much turnover in the CSM legions that the main troop contingent are primaris and the remaining 30k marines are characters and hero/veteran level.

Simple: feth no.

I wish that when they redid the CSM models last time, they would have just given them primaris size and proportions. While they look better than previous ones, it is still awkward that they're smaller than the loyalists. So I'd welcome chaos primaris, as that would mean CSM in better scale.

Just another aspect of a poorly thought out fluff change to justify changing the marine army to sell more.

I don't think chaos primaris marines would happen, at least not on the same scale as the main primaris marines happned. It doesn't seem plausable that broken legions would find enough resources to establish a manufacturing process to make marines that are better than themselves.

That said, the latest book about Fabius Bile called Genefather points in a curious direction...

Nothing will happen. I'd be willing to bet large moneys on that being left to never ever go anywhere.

Wrong topic

 Crimson wrote:
... it is still awkward that they're smaller than the loyalists.

They're meant to be. How is that awkward?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
... it is still awkward that they're smaller than the loyalists.

They're meant to be. How is that awkward?

Because it looks silly. CSM should be menacing.

I like how so many people here still didn't read actual lore and are still parroting 4chan soundbites, mere six years after primaris were introduced

Yes, primaris ARE more immune to corruption, first, because they are use fresh, 30K era geneseed (that was further improved) instead of watered down, degraded and degenerate (if not outright mutated) junk squatmarines of both kinds have after 10K years, but they also have most advanced hypno-indoctrination and training program Imperium was capable of devising after all that time. Does that make them immune? No, but they are among the most resistant SM ever made, save for outliers like GK.

Yes, yes, I get you people are upset someone actually dared to gather all the improvements Imperium made over its existence, filtered them through two individuals (who actually have a clue how it all works) and made overall better package than beta version of the product Emperor had to rush out of the gate due to deadlines, doesn't change actual lore. Get over it, still complaining about it and trying to drag it down is just childish by now

 Crimson wrote:
Because it looks silly. CSM should be menacing.

Why?

No, seriously, they are fallen. Turns out taking a deal with warp parasite that just wants to eat you (and the rest of your race) for breakfast wasn't the brilliant idea they thought it would be. They are 'menacing' in the sense a drugged junkie in withdrawal throes and rusty knife coming at you is 'menacing', but little more. Yes, maybe some exceptional individuals can 'rise' for a bit by pushing everyone else down, like in bucket full of drowning rats, but they too, eventually will be just turned into chaos spawn or at best eaten by said parasites as a snack (princehood).

What part of 'deals with devil are bad' and 'degeneration and fall from grace applies to everyone in 40K' don't apply to them, again?

Plus Primaris Marines simply are bigger (in general) than regular Marines, and Chaos Space Marines are still regular Marines. So of course Primaris Marines should be taller.

There's nothing awkward about that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Simple: feth no.

This^^^.

Irbis wrote:

Spoiler:

I like how so many people here still didn't read actual lore and are still parroting 4chan soundbites, mere six years after primaris were introduced

Yes, primaris ARE more immune to corruption, first, because they are use fresh, 30K era geneseed (that was further improved) instead of watered down, degraded and degenerate (if not outright mutated) junk squatmarines of both kinds have after 10K years, but they also have most advanced hypno-indoctrination and training program Imperium was capable of devising after all that time. Does that make them immune? No, but they are among the most resistant SM ever made, save for outliers like GK.

Yes, yes, I get you people are upset someone actually dared to gather all the improvements Imperium made over its existence, filtered them through two individuals (who actually have a clue how it all works) and made overall better package than beta version of the product Emperor had to rush out of the gate due to deadlines, doesn't change actual lore. Get over it, still complaining about it and trying to drag it down is just childish by now

 Crimson wrote:
Because it looks silly. CSM should be menacing.

Why?

No, seriously, they are fallen. Turns out taking a deal with warp parasite that just wants to eat you (and the rest of your race) for breakfast wasn't the brilliant idea they thought it would be. They are 'menacing' in the sense a drugged junkie in withdrawal throes and rusty knife coming at you is 'menacing', but little more. Yes, maybe some exceptional individuals can 'rise' for a bit by pushing everyone else down, like in bucket full of drowning rats, but they too, eventually will be just turned into chaos spawn or at best eaten by said parasites as a snack (princehood).

What part of 'deals with devil are bad' and 'degeneration and fall from grace applies to everyone in 40K' don't apply to them, again?

Uh-huh. And what about those CSM who didn't "take a deal from a warp parasite"? Oh, sorry, that would require that you actually read some of the lore, instead of just making up your own personal headcannon, which is what you generally do. Gods Irby, at least make this a bit challenging.

Where'd be the fun in that, Gad?

Speaking of not-so-Chaos Chaos, MajorKill just did a whole video on the Night Lords and their predilection for not being Chaotic. Interesting video. Bunch'a stuff I didn't know about.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Where'd be the fun in that, Gad?

Speaking of not-so-Chaos Chaos, MajorKill just did a whole video on the Night Lords and their predilection for not being Chaotic. Interesting video. Bunch'a stuff I didn't know about.

An excellent video, IMHO. I made a comment on it. Nothing that I didn't know. But still, quite interesting.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus Primaris Marines simply are bigger (in general) than regular Marines, and Chaos Space Marines are still regular Marines. So of course Primaris Marines should be taller.

There's nothing awkward about that.

It makes the main foe of the marines, the ancient chaos powered arch nemesis, to seem pathetic. I don't care about fluff justification, the fluff is stupid anyway.

Fabius is certainly interested in Primaris marines but I think the idea that he would just start adding them to CSM ranks isn’t really his MO.

More likely there’s something more interesting that can be done with their enhanced bodies. Improve on his Homo Novus or his gene hounds.

The man is far too devious to just hand out improved soldiers to other warlords out of the kindness of his heart

 Irbis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Because it looks silly. CSM should be menacing.

Why?

No, seriously, they are fallen. Turns out taking a deal with warp parasite that just wants to eat you (and the rest of your race) for breakfast wasn't the brilliant idea they thought it would be. They are 'menacing' in the sense a drugged junkie in withdrawal throes and rusty knife coming at you is 'menacing', but little more. Yes, maybe some exceptional individuals can 'rise' for a bit by pushing everyone else down, like in bucket full of drowning rats, but they too, eventually will be just turned into chaos spawn or at best eaten by said parasites as a snack (princehood).

What part of 'deals with devil are bad' and 'degeneration and fall from grace applies to everyone in 40K' don't apply to them, again?

It's a funny analogy but CSM are supposed to be absolutely terrifying. Personally I think they can get away with making them Primaris sized without making them Primaris with the only the most pedantic of nerds such as ourselves taking any issue.

On topic renegades players can surely use Primaris marine models now as it stands, I'm not sure making Chaos ones need to be any sort of priority. If I was planning Chaos (and locked in to keeping so many factions) I'd prioritize on fleshing out TS and WE and of course getting a (full) EC codex out. Maybe give DG some slow, bulky daemon engine bike things just because.

 Crimson wrote:
It makes the main foe of the marines, the ancient chaos powered arch nemesis, to seem pathetic.

To whom? You are literally the first (and only) person I've ever heard raise this.