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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
REMOVED

So, what is the goal? In your opinion. Because you can’t just rubbish the stated intent without providing an alternative like that.

I already stated the intent, control of the institution, its always about control.


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Catulle wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
REMOVED

No it doesn't.

Yes it does, every time its applied in praxis it results in the exclusion of one out group in favour of another in group.

But, GW owns the background and do whatever they wish with it. On account you can do pretty much whatever you want with your own fictional universe.

That they’re now doing stuff you don’t agree with is, frankly irrelevant, unless you’re a major shareholder of GW’s, and your deciding vote was ignored.

How does Custodes recruiting male and female infants now exclude anyone? Riddle me that at least.

Well yes, they own the background and can do as they wish. But they have a large fanbase, so have to bear the consequences of doing whatever they wish.

Custodes recruitment, pre and post current retcon, doesn't exclude anyone as such. Its more that it has put off a lot of existing fans. Its abruplty changed established lore, put in question a large amount of literature on the topic, has been handled badly by GW on social media and has been done for as yet unclear but likely ideological reasons.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I disagree that is a benefit. I think it actually serves to render the satire toothless and makes fascists find 40k more welcoming as they see the others they wish to exterminate as just as much of a quantifiable threat as the imperium does its others.

So, the othering in 40k is not actually satirising the othering of groups by totalitarian regimes. It is just depicting it completely straight from the point of view of the fascists, making them justified in their crimes.

Yep, the single greatest mistake GW ever made with the lore was portraying the Imperium's efforts as in any way justifiable. 40k hasn't been a satire of fascism for a long time. It's essentially capeshit where the majority of the fanbase are expected to cheer when their fascist good guy superheroes beat up their cartoonishly evil and less competent counterparts. In an effort to make 40k more marketable it has accidentally created a fascist power fantasy.

Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay. The lore on the age of technology and the age of strife makes the point that mankind tried being nice and allying with aliens, letting a myriad of different 'free' societies exist and using AI and tech to do all manner of things, and it all ended up in the fall and near extinction of the human race.

Not when it’s cyclical. Not when the hypothetical fall of The Imperium won’t necessitate the extinction of mankind. Not when The Imperium for all its inertia could be reordered to be less inwardly regressive and oppressive.

The horror is in not what The Imperium does, but how it goes about it, especially to its own citizens, those who’s security it’s claiming to be trying to achieve.

The fall of The Imperium would obviously precipitate the extinction of mankind. There is unfortunately no other way it could do what it does, given the nature of its enemies and the nature of warp travel and communication. Not without further progress of the Emperor's plans for the development of mankind anyway.

I mean, has it really put off a lot of existing fans? I've seen allusions to videos that claim it has, but it does not seem to have put off genuine fans more than most retcons do.

Hell, I'm someone who hates retcons and the only thing I feel wrong with it is that this was a golden(no pun intended) opportunity to expand the Talons of the Emperor rather than just saying "female Custodes exist".

Is-ought statements seem to be popular around here.

Robbienw wrote:Well yes, they own the background and can do as they wish. But they have a large fanbase, so have to bear the consequences of doing whatever they wish.

Custodes recruitment, pre and post current retcon, doesn't exclude anyone as such. Its more that it has put off a lot of existing fans. Its abruplty changed established lore, put in question a large amount of literature on the topic, has been handled badly by GW on social media and has been done for as yet unclear but likely ideological reasons.

What consequences? Given abrupt changes are part and parcel of 40K as a whole. You are aware that Marines weren’t originally post-human, yes? That Custodes once looked like this, yes?



That Dreadnoughts were once battle armour, like a Mecha, which the pilot grew increasingly addicted to and went insane from?

Or any of the dozens, if not hundreds, of tweaks, changes and retcons since 1987?

Shadows of Brimstone has great female mini representation and is much more popular with women, including my wife. And yes, cute animals are also a draw to some degree: the only 40k minis she painted were Tyranids.

 vipoid wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Racism is a problem in real life, and if it were present in the game most of us never would have stuck around to get to know the lore. The whole point of the 40k satire is to use fake Sci Fi bigotry and religious extremism that lets them comment on real issues without furthering the actual injustices they are lampooning.

Ah yes, racism should not be permitted in 40k because real people have been affected by racism.

Meanwhile, it's perfectly fine for 40k to feature genocide, because no one has ever been affected by that.

You cut out the rest of my post. Clearly, fantasy racism against fantasy races is part of the setting and an important part of the satire of real life racism. Similarly fantasy genocide of fantasy peoples can satirize real violence and real injustices without depicting the actual genocides of actual people.

Once again, you see this all the time in Sci Fi and fantasy. Gul Dukat works as a genocidal monster character because he is a Cardassian, a made up race who committed war crimes on a made up people. If you made a show with a charismatic antagonist based on a real Nazi who oversaw a real concentration camp, it wouldn’t work.


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
40K also benefits from those being “Othered” actually being a quantifiable threat. Not just to the wealth of the powerful, but to planets and systems as a whole.

I disagree that is a benefit. I think it actually serves to render the satire toothless and makes fascists find 40k more welcoming as they see the others they wish to exterminate as just as much of a quantifiable threat as the imperium does its others.

So, the othering in 40k is not actually satirising the othering of groups by totalitarian regimes. It is just depicting it completely straight from the point of view of the fascists, making them justified in their crimes.

I agree with this. It muddies the satire and makes the fantasy racism look justified.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I disagree that is a benefit. I think it actually serves to render the satire toothless and makes fascists find 40k more welcoming as they see the others they wish to exterminate as just as much of a quantifiable threat as the imperium does its others.

So, the othering in 40k is not actually satirising the othering of groups by totalitarian regimes. It is just depicting it completely straight from the point of view of the fascists, making them justified in their crimes.

Yep, the single greatest mistake GW ever made with the lore was portraying the Imperium's efforts as in any way justifiable. 40k hasn't been a satire of fascism for a long time. It's essentially capeshit where the majority of the fanbase are expected to cheer when their fascist good guy superheroes beat up their cartoonishly evil and less competent counterparts. In an effort to make 40k more marketable it has accidentally created a fascist power fantasy.

Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay. The lore on the age of technology and the age of strife makes the point that mankind tried being nice and allying with aliens, letting a myriad of different 'free' societies exist and using AI and tech to do all manner of things, and it all ended up in the fall and near extinction of the human race.

Not when it’s cyclical. Not when the hypothetical fall of The Imperium won’t necessitate the extinction of mankind. Not when The Imperium for all its inertia could be reordered to be less inwardly regressive and oppressive.

The horror is in not what The Imperium does, but how it goes about it, especially to its own citizens, those who’s security it’s claiming to be trying to achieve.

I feel like these are the two interpretations of Warhammer 40,000 lore that is really quite up in the air. To what extent is 40k a satire?
Fans cannot agree on it- and I think that's in part because the lore writers and GW corporate cannot agree on it consistently (some eras are more satirical, some more dryly presented).

Does Warhammer 40,000's Imperium represent a necessary evil? Is it grimdark because fascism and oppression are the only ways to escape complete extinction in a harsh universe that would enslave or devour all humans? In effect, is the Imperium the "best of all possible governments" because nothing that allows for personal liberty can survive?

Or does that attitude represent the Imperial propaganda machine- and the setting satirically portrays a society of humans stuck in a mindset so reactionary that they double down on their atrocities rather than admit that anything better can be achieved? Could humanity be far better served by a government that values individual lives and allows for personal freedoms as provided by a democratic republic that values scientific progress?


In my opinion, the second is the case. The Imperium is not the best of all possible governments- which I think is partly demonstrated with some of the thriving worlds that were conquered in the Great Crusade. Another big factor for me comes from the portrayal of the technology- it is easy to imagine that if humans had kept inventing things for the past ten thousand years and made their technology available, they could improve the lives of individual humans.



But I think both readings are valid readings of the source materials- I think that many individual sources point more towards the Imperium being the best of only bad options rather than an oppressive machine that continues its oppression out of sheer inertia. I don't think that interpretation necessarily means that you agree with the fascist sentiments (though it is clear that some people on the internet do).

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean, has it really put off a lot of existing fans? I've seen allusions to videos that claim it has, but it does not seem to have put off genuine fans more than most retcons do.

I can only go on what I've seen on various forums and social media sites, but it seems to have put a lot of genuine fans off yes. Its seems to have also brought in a lot of non-fans whose sole objective seems to be to gloat over the retcon and abuse people who aren't in favour of it.

The opening text tells us it is the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable. All the text after that tells us it is the coolest and funnest regime imaginable.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Robbienw wrote:Well yes, they own the background and can do as they wish. But they have a large fanbase, so have to bear the consequences of doing whatever they wish.

Custodes recruitment, pre and post current retcon, doesn't exclude anyone as such. Its more that it has put off a lot of existing fans. Its abruplty changed established lore, put in question a large amount of literature on the topic, has been handled badly by GW on social media and has been done for as yet unclear but likely ideological reasons.

What consequences?

The consequences of making a decision that some fans don't like. Obviously. The nature of those consequences will depend on the number of fans not in favour and the severity of their dissatisfaction of course.

So…no real consequences?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

robbienw wrote:

Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay. The lore on the age of technology and the age of strife makes the point that mankind tried being nice and allying with aliens, letting a myriad of different 'free' societies exist and using AI and tech to do all manner of things, and it all ended up in the fall and near extinction of the human race.

Enjoy your fascist superhero power fantasy little fella.

Hardly. This is not fantasy, the whole point of the Imperium is mankind has to resort to this level of extremism to survive.

No need for personal insults.

robbienw wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I disagree that is a benefit. I think it actually serves to render the satire toothless and makes fascists find 40k more welcoming as they see the others they wish to exterminate as just as much of a quantifiable threat as the imperium does its others.

So, the othering in 40k is not actually satirising the othering of groups by totalitarian regimes. It is just depicting it completely straight from the point of view of the fascists, making them justified in their crimes.

Yep, the single greatest mistake GW ever made with the lore was portraying the Imperium's efforts as in any way justifiable. 40k hasn't been a satire of fascism for a long time. It's essentially capeshit where the majority of the fanbase are expected to cheer when their fascist good guy superheroes beat up their cartoonishly evil and less competent counterparts. In an effort to make 40k more marketable it has accidentally created a fascist power fantasy.

Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay. The lore on the age of technology and the age of strife makes the point that mankind tried being nice and allying with aliens, letting a myriad of different 'free' societies exist and using AI and tech to do all manner of things, and it all ended up in the fall and near extinction of the human race.

And that is exactly what the Nazis said and why they went all in on eugenics. So feth off with that argument. But thanks for turning up and proving my point about the Imperium and its methods being a complete failure of satirical writing that has served to create a fascist state that morons can cheer for.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So…no real consequences?

That remains to be seen. As i just said, the severity of the consequences will depend on the number of fans not in favour and the severity of their dissatisfaction. It will also depend on how the situation develops going forward.

Said consequences will not all be immediately obvious.


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I disagree that is a benefit. I think it actually serves to render the satire toothless and makes fascists find 40k more welcoming as they see the others they wish to exterminate as just as much of a quantifiable threat as the imperium does its others.

So, the othering in 40k is not actually satirising the othering of groups by totalitarian regimes. It is just depicting it completely straight from the point of view of the fascists, making them justified in their crimes.

Yep, the single greatest mistake GW ever made with the lore was portraying the Imperium's efforts as in any way justifiable. 40k hasn't been a satire of fascism for a long time. It's essentially capeshit where the majority of the fanbase are expected to cheer when their fascist good guy superheroes beat up their cartoonishly evil and less competent counterparts. In an effort to make 40k more marketable it has accidentally created a fascist power fantasy.

Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay. The lore on the age of technology and the age of strife makes the point that mankind tried being nice and allying with aliens, letting a myriad of different 'free' societies exist and using AI and tech to do all manner of things, and it all ended up in the fall and near extinction of the human race.

And that is exactly what the Nazis said and why they went all in on eugenics. So feth off with that argument.

I think you need to come back to reality and not immediately switch to reductio ad nazium when somebody says something you don't like about 40k. Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

That is massively debatable.

Orks and Tyranids? Sure, there’s no good coming from trying to bargain with them, and neither are going to respect borders and treaties. Tyranids because there’s nothing to negotiate with. Orks because they’re anarchy incarnate, who do a lot of what they do because, to them, it’s funny.

Craftworld and Exodite Eldar, Necrons and Tau? Those you can, and the Imperium has, allied with in the short term. Sure you’d need to be vigilant, but long term treaties could work.

Votann? Already have trade pacts. And have had such going back to the founding of The Imperium.

Chaos? Yeah just don’t. Nothing good will come of that.

The Imperium’s way is not the only way. It’s not even the most efficient way, as right now they’re at war with everyone everywhere all at once, whilst doing precious little if anything to improve the lives of its citizenry, who are damned to the very worst kind of feudalism, their lives expended mostly to support the power and status of their overlords.

The Ad Mech’s hoarding nature actively holds mankind back. Whilst its superstition has some merit (AI bad, lead to bad things, but where did it begin, when does a Machine Spirit cross that line? Tread carefully), its hoarding of secrets for personal prestige is senseless.

robbienw wrote:
I think you need to come back to reality and not immediately switch to reductio ad nazium when somebody says something you don't like about 40k. Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

And despite being so unrealistic, the idea of a woman being a Marine is a bridge too far?

I feel like this scrum over whether the Imperium is justified could be solved by just linking the "For everyone" post and we could leave it there.

robbienw wrote:


I think you need to come back to reality and not immediately switch to reductio ad nazium when somebody says something you don't like about 40k. Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

When you write a setting in which a fascist state is saying that there are insidious elements of society seeking to destroy it entirely and that they must be exterminated, which is exactly what the nazis said about jews, and you then make that fascist state completely justified in that fear and paranoia and their methods, then you are making fascist propaganda, not critique.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That is massively debatable.

Orks and Tyranids? Sure, there’s no good coming from trying to bargain with them, and neither are going to respect borders and treaties. Tyranids because there’s nothing to negotiate with. Orks because they’re anarchy incarnate, who do a lot of what they do because, to them, it’s funny.

Craftworld and Exodite Eldar, Necrons and Tau? Those you can, and the Imperium has, allied with in the short term. Sure you’d need to be vigilant, but long term treaties could work.

Votann? Already have trade pacts. And have had such going back to the founding of The Imperium.

Chaos? Yeah just don’t. Nothing good will come of that.

The Imperium’s way is not the only way. It’s not even the most efficient way, as right now they’re at war with everyone everywhere all at once, whilst doing precious little if anything to improve the lives of its citizenry, who are damned to the very worst kind of feudalism, their lives expended mostly to support the power and status of their overlords.

The Ad Mech’s hoarding nature actively holds mankind back. Whilst its superstition has some merit (AI bad, lead to bad things, but where did it begin, when does a Machine Spirit cross that line? Tread carefully), its hoarding of secrets for personal prestige is senseless.

They can with the Votann because they are a gene engineered varaint of humans. But the rest the Imperium cannot reliably ally or negotiate with. Huamnity learned that lesson in the Age of Strife when everything fell apart, there is no point going revisiting previous failure.

I'm sure the imperium could be made more efficient, but it would probably need a period of respite to acheive this and several more Primarchs or other great hero's, which given the current state of the galaxy is just not achievable. Other changes woud just lead to greater levels of rebellion, fragmentation of humanity and chaos corruption, which all lead to extinction.

The Admech are necessarily holding back mankind. Mankind's unfettered technological development pre-age of strife, with AI and Men of Steel Rebellion and insanely powerful weapons of mass destruction in part lead to mankids pre-imperial downfall and near extinction.


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 JNAProductions wrote:

robbienw wrote:
I think you need to come back to reality and not immediately switch to reductio ad nazium when somebody says something you don't like about 40k. Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

And despite being so unrealistic, the idea of a woman being a Marine is a bridge too far?

Yes, given the vanishingly small amount of men who are suitable. Its irrelevant though as the owners of the setting say its not mechanically possible.

 Formosa wrote:
as to your question, for decades the Custodes were a male organisation, many liked this for various reasons, now by changing it you are excluding those people who do not like the change when their views are just as valid as yours, are you ok with excluding people in such a manner or will you just label them with some epithet to justify it?

Remember that time a bunch of Neanderthals marched down the street with tiki torches chanting, "you will not replace us" and the vast majority of people said, "that's not okay"? Yeah, not all views are valid. Like the Klan's, for example.

And one is saying that if you don't like the change you're not allowed to play 40k anymore. You're just less allowed to tell other people what they can't do, and that is tends upset certain groups of people.

 Overread wrote:
Don't forget classisms?
Many Imperial worlds have a class tiered society and its VERY evident that many upper classes consider the peasantry to be lesser creatures than them. People who can be killed by the thousands by faulty machinery or cheap food or lack of proper healthcare and those upper classes sleep sound at night.

Yeah, we are allowed to have culture wars over gender, but oddly few people in government and media wants to talk about that class stuff and its implications, so that is fine to put in

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
as to your question, for decades the Custodes were a male organisation, many liked this for various reasons, now by changing it you are excluding those people who do not like the change when their views are just as valid as yours, are you ok with excluding people in such a manner or will you just label them with some epithet to justify it?

Remember that time a bunch of Neanderthals marched down the street with tiki torches chanting, "you will not replace us" and the vast majority of people said, "that's not okay"? Yeah, not all views are valid. Like the Klan's, for example.

And one is saying that if you don't like the change you're not allowed to play 40k anymore. You're just less allowed to tell other people what they can't do, and that is tends upset certain groups of people.

Hey, let's get that right. They were also chanting "Jews will not replace us", and "Blood and soil" which is a literal Nazi slogan that was part of the propaganda to justify Nazi expansion into, and the genocide of the native population of, eastern europe.

robbienw wrote:
Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay. The lore on the age of technology and the age of strife makes the point that mankind tried being nice and allying with aliens, letting a myriad of different 'free' societies exist and using AI and tech to do all manner of things, and it all ended up in the fall and near extinction of the human race.

Given ten minutes and a notepad you could probably come up with better alternatives. Indeed the Imperium periodically comes into contact with isolated human factions that are doing quite well in different ways.. and exterminates them. I think though GW either from an in universe point of view of the natural desire to justify things does go out of its way to explain how this is all necessary. (and then contradict it with stuff like grav tanks for everyone.)

robbienw wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean, has it really put off a lot of existing fans? I've seen allusions to videos that claim it has, but it does not seem to have put off genuine fans more than most retcons do.

I can only go on what I've seen on various forums and social media sites, but it seems to have put a lot of genuine fans off yes. Its seems to have also brought in a lot of non-fans whose sole objective seems to be to gloat over the retcon and abuse people who aren't in favour of it.

I've seen the opposite. It seems like a lot of non-fans have entered 40k spaces in order to stoke politically motivated outrage. Ironically, I find that many of these people are accusing us older grognards of being "completely new to the hobby."


The thing is, the movements of right-wing social media activists moving into geek fan communities is documented in other spaces, so all we have to go on right now is anecdotes. But I do get annoyed with people telling us RT vets that we're "brand new to Warhammer."

I also find myself completely unsympathetic to the idea that female exclusion was part of the inherent character of the Custodes. It seems that even experienced fans are getting them confused with Astartes right now.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

robbienw wrote:


I think you need to come back to reality and not immediately switch to reductio ad nazium when somebody says something you don't like about 40k. Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

When you write a setting in which a fascist state is saying that there are insidious elements of society seeking to destroy it entirely and that they must be exterminated, which is exactly what the nazis said about jews, and you then make that fascist state completely justified in that fear and paranoia and their methods, then you are making fascist propaganda, not critique.

In 40k in the imperium, there are insidious elements seeking to end the imperium and mankind, who do need to be destroyed if mankind is to continue existing. But they are not specific ethnic or racial groups of people, and not identifiable to any real life groups. Trying to relate that to real world examples and saying any 40k groups are direct equivalents of real life groups, like nazi germany and the jewish people, and telling people they are wrong because of this is deeply, deeply odd behaviour.

robbienw wrote:
I think you need to come back to reality and not immediately switch to reductio ad nazium when somebody says something you don't like about 40k. Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

But it's not ridiculous to take a misogynistic stance on a game of toy soldiers in a fictional setting because someone made a change you don't like?

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I feel like this scrum over whether the Imperium is justified could be solved by just linking the "For everyone" post and we could leave it there.

Well. I don't think the writers intended to create allegorical apologism of fascism. But they ended up creating one by accident.

I mostly blame Black Library for this shift. When it was just a wargame, there was certain detachment to it. You could just describe the horrors of the setting, then the tiny toy soldiers fought. But once you start to write novels, you kinda need to have at least somewhat likeable characters, and easiest way to do so is to write such people as heroes. And as everyone likes marines, those heroes will be marines, and so then starts the shift from amoral murder machines to shiny and gallant defenders of humanity. I think the return of Guilliman was the culmination of this trend, where he is portrayed as this noble saviour. Now the de facto leader of this fascist totalitarian hellstate is someone who look like a hero and who is written as one. It is just quite disgusting and has really soured the 40K lore for me.

robbienw wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean, has it really put off a lot of existing fans? I've seen allusions to videos that claim it has, but it does not seem to have put off genuine fans more than most retcons do.

I can only go on what I've seen on various forums and social media sites, but it seems to have put a lot of genuine fans off yes. Its seems to have also brought in a lot of non-fans whose sole objective seems to be to gloat over the retcon and abuse people who aren't in favour of it.

And on the flipside, it also seems to have brought in a lot of non-fans whose sole objective is to complain about it.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay. The lore on the age of technology and the age of strife makes the point that mankind tried being nice and allying with aliens, letting a myriad of different 'free' societies exist and using AI and tech to do all manner of things, and it all ended up in the fall and near extinction of the human race.

Given ten minutes and a notepad you could probably come up with better alternatives. Indeed the Imperium periodically comes into contact with isolated human factions that are doing quite well in different ways.. and exterminates them. I think though GW either from an in universe point of view of the natural desire to justify things does go out of its way to explain how this is all necessary. (and then contradict it with stuff like grav tanks for everyone.)

Any 'better alternative' you could have come up with was likely in existence pre-age of strife, so is destined for failure as then.

Isolated factions only do well because they are isolated, and need to remain in hiding to do so. If they come into contact with the galaxy at large they don't have the military might to resist things like Tyranid and Ork invasions, and don't have the awareness to resist things like chaos corruption and gene stealer cults.


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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

robbienw wrote:
I think you need to come back to reality and not immediately switch to reductio ad nazium when somebody says something you don't like about 40k. Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

But it's not ridiculous to take a misogynistic stance on a game of toy soldiers in a fictional setting because someone made a change you don't like?

Its not misogynistic, just as someone not liking a change allowing men into the Sisters of Battle would not be misandristic.

Miguelsan wrote:Or worse, GW could take notes from Amazon/Netfilx, and start suplanting core characters by female versions. I don't know who that Marneus Calgar fellow you keep mentioning is, there is a Marneix Calgarix, and it's always been that way.

I'd say that's a direct detriment to the game, and it would matter a lot.

Marneus Calgar has already been changed. He no longer wears Terminator Armour, and his name's not even Marneus Calgar. It's Tacitus.

Formosa wrote:this is why its always about the space marines because its not about "representation" "diversity" or whatever, its about taking away what you have, removing one more barrier to force people to engage in politics, such is living in a post Marcusean world.

huh???

Formosa wrote:Men should have control over their own space in the same manner as woman have control over their own space, both should, do and can fight for that space in an appropriate manner, there are also plenty of shared spaces. Now if we are talking about the lore then this is a male represented space and as such people have every right to advocate for it to remain that way.

There'd be nothing wrong with an all-male faction - IF they didn't happen to be the main face of the setting, with the lions' share of treatment, the most stories, a whole spinoff setting focused on them, the most easily accessible variation of aesthetics, the most beginner friendly, and have the entire weight of GW's cultural inertia behind them. You talk about "plenty of shared spaces", but none of those "shared spaces" have the same clout as Space Marines, do they?

Also, why would having women Space Marines threaten your own all-dudes Space Marines?

And what of the men who want to hand over "their space" to include women?

Crimson wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
40K also benefits from those being “Othered” actually being a quantifiable threat. Not just to the wealth of the powerful, but to planets and systems as a whole.

I disagree that is a benefit. I think it actually serves to render the satire toothless and makes fascists find 40k more welcoming as they see the others they wish to exterminate as just as much of a quantifiable threat as the imperium does its others.

So, the othering in 40k is not actually satirising the othering of groups by totalitarian regimes. It is just depicting it completely straight from the point of view of the fascists, making them justified in their crimes.

Yep, fully agreed. "Imperium is horrible, but it is so by necessity" is not something I want to be taken seriously. It of course is what the Imperials in the setting beleive, but it should be shown to be misguided. This is not to say that there cannot be genuine treats, but the narrative should be that by being xenophobic totalitarian pricks the Imperium actually makes the situation worse.

Strongly agreed. If GW are to lean into the "psykers can't be trusted/mutants represent a threat", then they should/could include some fluff about how, on one planet, psykers are treated well and have no risk of Perils, and that those with mutations are treated or welcomed into their culture - and then have them get destroyed by the Imperium who can't understand how such a thing is possible. Make it clear that the psyker-mutant culture *is stable, thriving, and is having no problems* - and then show that the Imperium is working against the ethical survival of humankind.

Formosa wrote:what is YOUR motivation as we know its certainly not representation or inclusion as you are seeking to exclude those who do not want a change and deny them their representation.

You're still represented. You're just not just represented *at the cost of everything else*.

as to your question, for decades the Custodes were a male organisation, many liked this for various reasons, now by changing it you are excluding those people who do not like the change when their views are just as valid as yours, are you ok with excluding people in such a manner or will you just label them with some epithet to justify it?

For decades, the Custodes weren't even on the tabletop, and were oiled up shirtless cone-heads. Them being "male" was predicated simply on the assumption that there were no women. It was only in the 8th ed Custodes codex that anything implied with any clarity that they were all male.

And, more to the point - if you or others like Custodes as a male group of sweaty oiled up homoerotic bodybuilders, then you can still do that! Your own collection can be their own scpcial sausage party. Who cares what other people do with their models, am I right?

robbienw wrote:Of course its justifiable. The imperium is the only thing standing in the way of mankinds extinction, its extremisn is entirely neccessay.

Only because the Imperium *destroys everything else that could provide an alternative*.

The Interex.
The Auretian Technocracy.
Gue'vesa.
Countless other human group destroyed in the Great Crusade.

The Imperium is even *actively* welcomed for negotiation with the Tau, and guess what? The Imperium tries to wipe them out.

The Imperium are not the good guys, and are not justified to do what they do. They never have been. If, for a moment, you think the Imperium are justified, I kindly remind you that even GW disagrees with you, and have told you that you should not be idolising the Imperium in any way.

robbienw wrote: Its a ridiculous position to take. Its a fictional setting, the main threats in which are highly unrealistic aliens and magically corrupted humans which bear no relation to anything in real life.

But women soldiers are a step too far?

 Kanluwen wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean, has it really put off a lot of existing fans? I've seen allusions to videos that claim it has, but it does not seem to have put off genuine fans more than most retcons do.

I can only go on what I've seen on various forums and social media sites, but it seems to have put a lot of genuine fans off yes. Its seems to have also brought in a lot of non-fans whose sole objective seems to be to gloat over the retcon and abuse people who aren't in favour of it.

And on the flipside, it also seems to have brought in a lot of non-fans whose sole objective is to complain about it.

Perhaps. Its a hot button issue and its a very popular franchise that a lot of people have some awareness of. These kind of things make people take sides and attract lots of commentary.