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And in fairness that's an issue with almost any game.
It's not just attitude either, but you often find that competitive list builders are often, if not more skilled or practiced, often more aware of tactics to try and use. So they can often take a very different mental approach to the game whilst a more casual/fluffy list player might not.
This can even be down to simple things like the competitive player goes for the objectives whilst the casual just keeps trying to kill random things each turn etc....
It's an issue for most games that are not pure chance games like Snakes and Ladders. As soon as choice, tactics, thinking, planning etc come into play any disparity between players in skill/attitude/competency is going to flare up.
RPG games can often smooth this over between players because it runs through a DM; but they can have the other issue of where players and DM differ in attitude and so forth. Get a DM who was after a nice story game and pair them with a heavily combat focused group of power-players and neither side is setting themselves up for the good time they envisioned.
Nevelon wrote: White Dwarf lists/loadouts was actually a term used at the time (and later) as well. Especially for the one-of-everything dev squads. TAC lists taken just a little too far, to the point that while they could do anything, they couldn’t actually get results.
That said, when you put two of them on the table across from each other, you could have a fun game. Which could be said about all of 40k across the years. If you and your opponent were on the same page for how hard you were going, you could have a lot of fun. Either casual v. casual, or comp v. comp. It was when you mixed the two that things got un-fun.
Yup.
And for absolute clarity, Dear Reader, I’m not suggesting anyone was Doing It Wrong. Just that for many, with WD articles and Battle Reports being the standard bearer, our hobby tended to reflect that. Sure we found favoured combos which performed well, but for me and mine, getting peak performance and synergy just didn’t cross our tiny teenage minds.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The other thing, which I should’ve mentioned when sharing the piccies, is that White Dwarf Battle Reports pretty much set the standard.
As in, that’s what we had to aspire to, 2nd Ed being a time before the internet was widespread.
Not dumping on the next person’s preference, but WD didn’t encourage Beardy Lists, instead promoting a “take what you want” approach. WAAC and “is my army competitive” wouldn’t really enter my sphere until 3rd Edition landed, because I just had no exposure to gamers that weren’t part of my immediate gaming circles.
So yeah, the army selection could be abused. But in my experience? It just wasn’t. Because 40K wasn’t presented to us as a Competitive Thing, so much as a Collaborative Effort to tell a cool story via dice and asplosions.
Just because you didn't see it in your club does not mean it wasn't out there. If a rule set exists, then there will be a plurality of players who seek to exploit it.
Ohh now we are trying to remember our lists Chaos
My Lord (something like 365 points)
Level 4 Psyker
Terminator Armor with Lightning Claw
Mark of Nurgle
Combat Drugs
Daemon Weapon
Displacer Field
5 Terminators, Mark of Khorne, twin Lightning claws
5 Vets with 2 lascannons
5 regular Marines with 3 Autocannons
1 Chaos Dreadnought
1500 points was the standard we played.
17 models.
My regular marine with an autocannon one shotted a Hive tyrant in 2nd. Was promoted to sergeant.
As a ruthless sergeant he killed a squad member during a game to motivate the rest to perform better and they did in 3rd edition. We actually rolled for it after two rounds of his squad missing everything.
In 5th he killed a terminator in close combat and was a lone survivor in a game. Stole the armor and weapons.
Became a champion in 6th. Took a break in 7th. Killed his lord in 8th, now commands in 10th. One day I might get around to giving this guy a name LOL. I should make an Inductii squad in my Heresy army just to have him present there too.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
Col. Dash wrote: Ohh now we are trying to remember our lists Chaos
My Lord (something like 365 points)
Level 4 Psyker
Terminator Armor with Lightning Claw
Mark of Nurgle
Combat Drugs
Daemon Weapon
Displacer Field
5 Terminators, Mark of Khorne, twin Lightning claws
5 Vets with 2 lascannons
5 regular Marines with 3 Autocannons
1 Chaos Dreadnought
1500 points was the standard we played.
17 models.
My regular marine with an autocannon one shotted a Hive tyrant in 2nd. Was promoted to sergeant.
As a ruthless sergeant he killed a squad member during a game to motivate the rest to perform better and they did in 3rd edition. We actually rolled for it after two rounds of his squad missing everything.
In 5th he killed a terminator in close combat and was a lone survivor in a game. Stole the armor and weapons.
Became a champion in 6th. Took a break in 7th. Killed his lord in 8th, now commands in 10th. One day I might get around to giving this guy a name LOL. I should make an Inductii squad in my Heresy army just to have him present there too.
I mean... if they have gone 8 editions murdering their way up the command chain without a name, surely they should remain as the Nameless One at this point?
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
There’s little argument 2nd Ed, model for model, tended to be more expensive due to fewer plastic kits, especially at the beginning.
But, the dramatically smaller armies did offset that.
Yes a £25 Dreadnought was a lot of money, even for those buying from an adult wage. But typically? You’re only buying the one.
Characters being maybe £8 tops? That’s a fair amount of points, Spesh once you started piling on Wargear which could ramp up their in-game cost.
Even the Assault Squad I set out. £50, or around £120 in today’s money isn’t cheap for a single squad. At all. But, as nearly a third of a 1,500 point army after equipment? Not unaffordable or an unattractive expense.
Devastators varied of course. The boxed set came with set weapons, and the remaining five bods typically came from the cheapo plastic 5 man squad as you only needed Bolter Marines. To go custom loadout you were Blister Packing/Mail Order, which was a bit more expensive, but still mitigated by the cheapo Bolters.
Terminators become much more attractive once the Space Hulk multi-part plastic ones became available, probably around 1994/1995? Certainly I was studying GCSE Maths at the time,
Marines are the best case scenario though. What about Guard or the aforementioned Tyranid Gaunts?
Also, I'm not convinced that a 50% increase in Marine army size is all that dramatic. That is going from 28 models to 42 (by model count), maybe adding a couple of extra units, three at a push. If the units became half the price (because plastic) then it actually becomes easier to create the 3rd edition list.
Doing a 1-1 comparison isn't the full story with army size, as the types of armies that were effective changed a bit, so army composition changed. During 2nd running a smattering of specialists was the competetive option. But during 3rd, with the reduction in cost of a Marine (from 30 to 15) and with their new, tougher armor (the new AP system), the Power Armor Horde became viable. My most competetive build in 3rd had 60 Marines in it, as opposed to the 28ish in 2nd. This is reflected in one of the WD highlighted armies at the time too.
Coming off of the herohammer that was 2nd, a lot of people underestimated just what a bunch of marines tapping out a solid bolter drill could do.
Statlines were significantly flattened. Most layered defenses removed. You basically marine was a solid pic and could get work done. I got a lot of use out of tac squads myself.
Nevelon wrote: Coming off of the herohammer that was 2nd, a lot of people underestimated just what a bunch of marines tapping out a solid bolter drill could do.
Statlines were significantly flattened. Most layered defenses removed. You basically marine was a solid pic and could get work done. I got a lot of use out of tac squads myself.
Also helped that you could choose a unit of 5-6 Tacs with a special and heavy weapon
Nevelon wrote: Coming off of the herohammer that was 2nd, a lot of people underestimated just what a bunch of marines tapping out a solid bolter drill could do.
Statlines were significantly flattened. Most layered defenses removed. You basically marine was a solid pic and could get work done. I got a lot of use out of tac squads myself.
People love to use the phrase hero hammer for 2nd ed, but I watched characters slaughter just as many if not more people in melee in 3rd onwards.
As per 2nd ed rules, a single model could not fight more than 5-6 other models because they all had to be in btb contact with them. And unless you were marneus calgar, by the time you got to your 5th guardsman, you were facing WS7 with 5 attacks. And although unlikely, a marine character can still lose a melee with a guardsmen even on the first round. WS 7 rolling 2 2s and a 1 against a guardsman rolling 1 6 would have the guardsman winning by 1 - WS3+6+1 from the fumble = 10 vs the marine's 9. The odds improve for every guardsman after that.
In 3rd ed, the marine character hits on 3s with up to 6 attacks on the charge and strikes before the guardsmen can fight, killing most in btb contact for no return strikes.
Melee was also more decisive in 3rd onwards, so you could easily then run the unit down with just one character.
In 2nd ed I kept a marine captain in combat for several turns with gretchin due to outnumbering playing such a massive factor in combat resolution.
Just Tony wrote: Just because you didn't see it in your club does not mean it wasn't out there. If a rule set exists, then there will be a plurality of players who seek to exploit it.
GW's Rogue Trader Tournament format used to score not just for tabletop performance, but also for painting, sportsmanship, and army composition, with cheesy/non-fluffy armies (in the eyes of the judges) penalized.
Sure, competitive gaming has always been around, but the way the average player approaches the game has changed. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this thread, but it's a real thing- and Doc's right, the prevailing attitude in 2nd Ed was what today we would call 'casual'.
Just Tony wrote: Just because you didn't see it in your club does not mean it wasn't out there. If a rule set exists, then there will be a plurality of players who seek to exploit it.
GW's Rogue Trader Tournament format used to score not just for tabletop performance, but also for painting, sportsmanship, and army composition, with cheesy/non-fluffy armies (in the eyes of the judges) penalized.
Sure, competitive gaming has always been around, but the way the average player approaches the game has changed. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this thread, but it's a real thing- and Doc's right, the prevailing attitude in 2nd Ed was what today we would call 'casual'.
Indeed, the only Grand Tournament winner I can remember, Wai Lam, won because of his overwhelming sportsmanship and army comp score.
Nevelon wrote: Coming off of the herohammer that was 2nd, a lot of people underestimated just what a bunch of marines tapping out a solid bolter drill could do.
Statlines were significantly flattened. Most layered defenses removed. You basically marine was a solid pic and could get work done. I got a lot of use out of tac squads myself.
People love to use the phrase hero hammer for 2nd ed, but I watched characters slaughter just as many if not more people in melee in 3rd onwards.
As per 2nd ed rules, a single model could not fight more than 5-6 other models because they all had to be in btb contact with them. And unless you were marneus calgar, by the time you got to your 5th guardsman, you were facing WS7 with 5 attacks. And although unlikely, a marine character can still lose a melee with a guardsmen even on the first round. WS 7 rolling 2 2s and a 1 against a guardsman rolling 1 6 would have the guardsman winning by 1 - WS3+6+1 from the fumble = 10 vs the marine's 9. The odds improve for every guardsman after that.
In 3rd ed, the marine character hits on 3s with up to 6 attacks on the charge and strikes before the guardsmen can fight, killing most in btb contact for no return strikes.
Melee was also more decisive in 3rd onwards, so you could easily then run the unit down with just one character.
In 2nd ed I kept a marine captain in combat for several turns with gretchin due to outnumbering playing such a massive factor in combat resolution.
I didn’t play a ton of 2nd, but 3rd was probably my most played edition. My impression was not necessarily the offence, but heroes without layered armor/invulnerable/cover/whatever saves just died a lot easier. So while still a beatstick, not an invulnerable one.
^A lot of it was the layered invuln and armor saves, and the other half was the psychic phase and how powerful powers were.
On the whole I think the offensive CC capacities of characters wasn't too far off 2nd aside from the potential morale effects. I admit I can't really remember how Morale resoled in 2nd after fighting though.
Jeez, I know you said it was your favorite, but reading that army list nearly put me in a coma.
I feel ya. But for a guy who loved the theorerical focus on Tactical Squads in codex structure, but never really feeling like I could use them in an actual game, having a list focus on them was pretty great.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/11/05 03:45:11
Insectum7 wrote: ^A lot of it was the layered invuln and armor saves, and the other half was the psychic phase and how powerful powers were.
On the whole I think the offensive CC capacities of characters wasn't too far off 2nd aside from the potential morale effects. I admit I can't really remember how Morale resoled in 2nd after fighting though.
Outnumbering didn't affect breaking. If you lost 25% of your troops in a single turn (from either or both shooting and CC), you immediately took a break test at your unit's highest Ld level. And you could only take 1 test per turn even if you somehow lost more casualties
A failure means the unit is broken. They then immediately flee 2D6" towards the nearest cover unless they were in cover when they broke in which case they immediately hide. Broken units cannot shoot or CC and if attacked in melee must immediately flee 2D6" again.
There was no run down and no Ld modifiers for being outnumbered. So a single tooled up beatstick in 3rd ed could easily charge, force test and run down an enemy unit while a 2nd ed character couldn't.
Psykers in 2nd were definitely powerful though. The highest level ones usually had better stats (1 extra wound) than the army's general (Chief Librarians had the same stats as captains but +1W, which was a common theme across all armies, the psyker equivalent of the same level would have 1 extra wound than a non psyker).
They were the most expensive characters in the game. Put one in terminator armour with expensive wargear cards and you're looking at 300pts....
^Hmm no Ld mod in 2nd, ok. Thanks for the refresher.
Although for your example for 3rd, a single Character wouldn't be outnumbering anybody, so there wouldn't be any modifiers either. I believe modifiers based on casualties dealt came along in 5th.
*Checking*
There's a single modifier for being below 50% if enough casualties are dealt, in 3rd.
Oh, and whilst I’d need to dig out my Cards to remember exactly what power did what? A Chief Librarian could happily cast stuff like Iron Arm on himself, and The Quickening, and become even more Killy.
Store any unspent Warp Cards in your Psychic Sword/Axe/Rod and boost your strength too.
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Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
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