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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.

Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"

Spoiler:

They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.

And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.

Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"

Spoiler:

They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.

And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.

Can't help but laugh as when cow-elves were first previewed, I was lambasted for saying exactly this.

 vipoid wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.

Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"

Spoiler:

They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.

And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.

Can't help but laugh as when cow-elves were first previewed, I was lambasted for saying exactly this.

I remember the reveal too. I think an elf hammer could maybe work, theoretically, but the hammers would need to not be giant fething mallets.

But really, in warhammer, hammers are a Dwarf weapon (and by cultural osmosis, a sigmarite weapon).

 Overread wrote:
The main issue is that the model hasn't got a tail so its rear end appears unfinished/ungainly for what's basically a mech-dragon

I've also noticed the butt-hole issue. I think I'd have gone with twin engines under the wings and put a stubby tail on it instead.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I remember the reveal too. I think an elf hammer could maybe work, theoretically, but the hammers would need to not be giant fething mallets.

But really, in warhammer, hammers are a Dwarf weapon (and by cultural osmosis, a sigmarite weapon).

Yeah, I could potentially get behind it if the proportions were remotely sensible.

As it stands, though, all I see is a bunch of elves who are about to get a hard lesson in the laws of physics.

Gah, sorry about the delay in my post but the crab mallet weilding bull hatted Elves broke my brain, no wonder they were so back so far in the Necronomicon, under the chapter heading: things-that-you-should-not-see.

Tyel wrote:
Lumineth are weird because the core range - spears/archers/silver helms are 10/10, some of the best models I think GW has ever made.
But everything else in the faction has this horrible uncanny valley effect to me. The cow-hatted crocket mallet wielding guys were the first bizarre aesthetic choice, but its true of everything else. (I guess the Kangaroo archers aren't so bad as models, but "why?")

Most of the AoS ranges are like that for me: a few models I like, and then a cascade of baffling design choices. Bonelords are especially egregious in that regard.

Primaris Marines are guilty of this too -- the various "basic" armor types look good to great, but the support and elite infantry (and most of the vehicles) are either visually indistinct, goofy looking, or both.

This isn't helped by GW's "Adjective Nounverbs" naming convention, which makes every unit sound the same while being utterly unmemorable. It all decays into a indeteriminate visual and lexographical mush. (One beneficial side effect of this is that the truly excellent ranges, like Cities of Sigmar, stand out even more.)

shortymcnostrill wrote:
These hind legs transform its exhaust into a giant flaming sphincter, making it impossible to take seriously.

Look there are so few Slaaneshi models that don't water the theme down, just let us have our giant flaming sphincters.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.

Imagine these geezers having to walk through a door though.

Oh I finally thought of a 40k unit when I once saw it I was like "I will never buy this"

the Hekaton land fortress

It's probably because it looks like the turtles tank
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/4370611a-b1c4-47d2-9c3c-2dc91397745e.bb2b0337e662233d8aa63be0218b1428.jpeg.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Hekaton_Land_Fortress

The Sagitaur and necromunda's squat thing look so much better..

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.

Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"

Spoiler:

They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.

And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.

*cough* https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/House_of_the_Hammer_of_Wrath#:~:text=The%20Elves%20of%20the%20house,and%20work%20as%20a%20blacksmith.

The problem is we've had decades of Hollywood selling us that swords are the most graceful and ultimate weapon of war.

Meanwhile warhammers are huge oversized lumbering slow weapons held, typically, by either the bad guy who will lose to the hero with a sword; or by the big lumbering giant on the good side who will be slow but smash everything with super-powers.

The idea of warhammers being actual effective weapons in battle and popular ones is - heavily undersupported.

 Overread wrote:
The problem is we've had decades of Hollywood selling us that swords are the most graceful and ultimate weapon of war.

Meanwhile warhammers are huge oversized lumbering slow weapons held, typically, by either the bad guy who will lose to the hero with a sword; or by the big lumbering giant on the good side who will be slow but smash everything with super-powers.

The idea of warhammers being actual effective weapons in battle and popular ones is - heavily undersupported.

In actual battles this version of warhammers weren't even used, at best warriors used hammer picks. (those are actually pretty graceful imho)
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/weapons-of-war-the-war-hammer/

Oh true, but real battles also didn't have dragons and titans nor elves with greater strength and endurance than the average human.

Once you start having heavy beasts and units on the battlefield (heck Warhammer has steamtanks) then something bigger than a pick starts to become a rather attractive choice. Esp if you've the strength to back it up.

I think the sword ones - Bladelords? - look even worse...

I guess to pick something new, and non-SM, I'd possibly go for Neurogaunts. Not sure how Tyranid players are finding them, but they just seem redundant to me. I mean reducing battleshock (maybe) etc is nice, but.... meh? The game is still such that units tend towards either being alive or dead. I guess they are very cheap wounds if you are going down that line. Its probably worth chucking one unit in.

But the models just feel kind of... idk, plasticky? Like the intern had a go at making new Hormagaunts/Termagants but messed it up.

I used to heavily dislike the Repulsor tanks, but a lot of that is how much GW likes to take pictures of them low to emphasize the grav plates. Once a local started running them regularly I found I quite like them on the table. I still think they lack some of what makes the Rhino and in particular the Land Raider so iconic, but I've ended up preferring them to the Predator.

I have zero hate for the Storm Speeder over its prior counterpart, but I do think the gunner is a step too far and would have looked better without him.

 Overread wrote:
Oh true, but real battles also didn't have dragons and titans nor elves with greater strength and endurance than the average human.

Once you start having heavy beasts and units on the battlefield (heck Warhammer has steamtanks) then something bigger than a pick starts to become a rather attractive choice. Esp if you've the strength to back it up.

Except that physics is still a thing. Wielding that much weight at the end of a pole is simply not practical. Even if they were theoretically strong enough, they still wouldn't be heavy enough. Remember - you don't just need strength to control a heavy object, you also need to have enough weight that you're not thrown off balance when you swing it.

And before any one chips in to say that those hammers are actually made of Mithril or something and are actually super light, please bear in mind that making them out of a lightweight material would undermines the entire point of using hammers in the first place. The weight is what gives a hammer the force to penetrate or deform armour and cause significant damage to the person inside it. So they would be far better off using sensibly-sized hammers made out of ordinary steel than spending 10,000gp of Mithril on what amounts to little more than one of the inflatable hammers you can win at a fairground.

/Rant

Tyel wrote:
I think the sword ones - Bladelords? - look even worse...

I guess to pick something new, and non-SM, I'd possibly go for Neurogaunts. Not sure how Tyranid players are finding them, but they just seem redundant to me. I mean reducing battleshock (maybe) etc is nice, but.... meh? The game is still such that units tend towards either being alive or dead. I guess they are very cheap wounds if you are going down that line. Its probably worth chucking one unit in.

But the models just feel kind of... idk, plasticky? Like the intern had a go at making new Hormagaunts/Termagants but messed it up.

Personally I love them. They are tiny and cute, one doesn't realize how small they are until they are next to a termagant or hormagaunt.

And lore wise a horde of cheap chaff extending synapse is cool, as it makes a much sturdier synapse web.

The one I'm struggling to find a justification for is the Screamer-killer, because bigger melee Carnifex is something Haruspexes do better.

Yeah Nerogaunts are cool! Personally I see them as a means to help swarm armies keep that swarmy feel by letting you spread out synapse over the army in a greater amount without having to reach for a "big synapse bug".

I do think that conceptually they suffered from a change of focus during the rules development. Much like how the little aids with the Nurothrope wound up "doing nothing" it seems that the leader beast for the neurogaunts wound up "doing nothing" special though I'm sure conceptually they were.



Screamerkiller/Carnifex is 100% right. The Fex has felt stuck for a while because all the specialist roles it used to be king at got replaced. It's gone from the toolbox powerhouse of the army to the middleweight and its kind of a little lost. It's not cheap/light enough to be a quick addition but its not quite heavy hitting enough to be a heavy weight.

You can even feel this a bit with the Swarmlord getting one-upped by the Norns.

Ogryn could be the dumbest unit

 SirDonlad wrote:
Ogryn could be the dumbest unit

Spoiler:

Hey! They'll keep them robots safe for the Emperor better than any guardsmen!

 SirDonlad wrote:
Ogryn could be the dumbest unit

Spoiler:

Be nice to them.

 Overread wrote:
The problem is we've had decades of Hollywood selling us that swords are the most graceful and ultimate weapon of war.

That's more a matter of most advanced warrior cultures spending the last 2000 years elevating the sword as the weapon the nobility and the warrior elite. (The bow being the second-most popular weapon to idolize.) Even though the sword wasn't the primary weapon of the European man-at-arms or the Japanese samurai it was the weapon that set him apart from the rabble and made him a warrior and not just a soldier. This is probably because swords are really cool -- Hollywood got that right!

 Overread wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
Ogryn could be the dumbest unit

Spoiler:

Hey! They'll keep them robots safe for the Emperor better than any guardsmen!

I wonder who the robots were?

The Ogryn had the greatest rule name back in the days if yore, "It's dark in dere." Good luck putting them back in the Chimera.

The primaris devastators. There's like, three different 10 man squads to replace Devastators, each with their own weapon type. The Beauty of the Devvies, was that you could take them as close-range powerhouses (meltas), sharpshooter tank-hunters (lascannons) or more mid-board general threats (Missiles, Gravs, Plasma). But you also could only take 4 heavy weapons, meaning you could take 5 cannon fodder marines that would serve to protect the Devs, and also have shooting bonuses. Making that into a ten man heavy squad kind of neuters the nuance, and even lore wise makes it seem like they have an infinite supply of weapons, (a full plasma squad, for example is a bit unbelievable to me, because of how hazardous Plasma weapons on the infantry scale are). Not to mention, aside from the bloated codex, they just look a bit silly. Devvies had heavier leg plating, and held their heavy weapons as if they were, actual heavy duty equipment. A lot of the Primaris Devastators (hellblasters, desolators etc) don't really have the heavier look to them, or go way overboard like aggressors. They kind of hold their guns like foam props, like I get they are 10 foot tall superhumans, but heavy weapons designed for them are still heavy, there's no way around it.

Here's something I've always wondered, why does a tiny bolt pistol for a IG Sergeant have the same stats as a Bolt Pistol for a SM Sergeant?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Here's something I've always wondered, why does a tiny bolt pistol for a IG Sergeant have the same stats as a Bolt Pistol for a SM Sergeant?

Because historically all bolters are the same weapons (and the 'tiny' bolt pistol that the guard has is the same design as the normal marine/sisters pistol). It's only with the scale creep power fantasy that GW keeps pushing with marines that the idea that a marine's bolter is different has appeared.

Sisters bolters, guard bolters and marine bolters should all be the same weapon. Marine players like being special though, and can't stand the idea that their guns arent the bestest so this idea that 'astartes bolters' are a thing has appeared which is just dumb. Doesn't help that meme culture has been riding the 'bolt shells are red bull cans' line, despite the largest calibre they've ever been described as using is .998 (which is basically 1 inch, or 25mm).

The interwebs, the chosen voice of the wisdom of the Omnissiah has decreed that the Bolter shells are.75 cal while HB shells are 1.00 cal.

Did GW ever release a prop bolt shell? Or have those all been 3rd party?

 Hellebore wrote:

Marine players like being special though, and can't stand the idea that their guns arent the bestest

Oof, the truth hurts there. We really do.

 LunarSol wrote:
I used to heavily dislike the Repulsor tanks, but a lot of that is how much GW likes to take pictures of them low to emphasize the grav plates. Once a local started running them regularly I found I quite like them on the table. I still think they lack some of what makes the Rhino and in particular the Land Raider so iconic, but I've ended up preferring them to the Predator.

I have zero hate for the Storm Speeder over its prior counterpart, but I do think the gunner is a step too far and would have looked better without him.

My dislike for the space marine repulsor tanks comes from how they muddied the generally defined character of vehicles between factions.

You had each faction effectively occupying their own fuzzy spaces in a 2D plot of protection (typically Armour facing values) vs mobility. IG had maxed protection with limited mobility with vehicles like the Russ variants and few skimmers, then space marines with on average less protection (Land Raider is the exception) but more mobility with fast skimmers, then Tau who were space marine-esque protection but on skimmers and with the ability to fire on the move better, then you had orks with low armour high speed buggies and trukks along with their slower armoured wagons, then you had Eldar with fast skimmers with still okay armour and shield tech, then Dark Eldar who were maxed out speed, minimum armour. Never played enough Necrons to get a feeling of where they really sat.

By giving Space Marines full hovertanks, rather than just the light skimmers they previously had, they stepped into the design space occupied by the Tau.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I used to heavily dislike the Repulsor tanks, but a lot of that is how much GW likes to take pictures of them low to emphasize the grav plates. Once a local started running them regularly I found I quite like them on the table. I still think they lack some of what makes the Rhino and in particular the Land Raider so iconic, but I've ended up preferring them to the Predator.

I have zero hate for the Storm Speeder over its prior counterpart, but I do think the gunner is a step too far and would have looked better without him.

My dislike for the space marine repulsor tanks comes from how they muddied the generally defined character of vehicles between factions.

You had each faction effectively occupying their own fuzzy spaces in a 2D plot of protection (typically Armour facing values) vs mobility. IG had maxed protection with limited mobility with vehicles like the Russ variants and few skimmers, then space marines with on average less protection (Land Raider is the exception) but more mobility with fast skimmers, then Tau who were space marine-esque protection but on skimmers and with the ability to fire on the move better, then you had orks with low armour high speed buggies and trukks along with their slower armoured wagons, then you had Eldar with fast skimmers with still okay armour and shield tech, then Dark Eldar who were maxed out speed, minimum armour. Never played enough Necrons to get a feeling of where they really sat.

By giving Space Marines full hovertanks, rather than just the light skimmers they previously had, they stepped into the design space occupied by the Tau.

For the last 20 years GW has made a concerted effort to mine their xeno armies for ideas and themes to put in marines to sell more of them.

Before white scars, if you wanted to play a fast bike army you played ork speed freeks or saim han eldar. Before marine hover tanks, you had to play eldar or tau to use them. If you wanted specialised single use elite units you played eldar aspect units, now you can just buy primaris units designed the same way.

Basically, GW only wants to maximise its profits so rather than investing in making their other armies more attractive, they've just been stripping their unique features and making a marine army that does the same thing so you don't have to ever not play marines.

If they could figure out how to make ork hordes in power armour, we'd be seeing a new marine chapter called the Space Horde that fights just like orks, but are still space marines...