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You've literally been told why within 40k lore.
Lore: The geneseed process simply doesn't work on females for some unknown reason.
It's not an unknown reason, though. The reason is that the spectacularly ugly female models that GW tried to sell in the late '80s weren't popular, and so they added a line about space marines being men to the background to explain why the models they sold from then on were all men.
It's an anachronism based on an issue that no longer applies to the hobby, and no longer fits with the way the setting has evolved.
Sledgehammer wrote: The brotherhood, self sacrifice and monastic inspiration inherent to the cultural makeup of space marines is exactly what makes them space marines.
What exactly about a monastic lifestyle (let's ignore Space Wolves for the moment!) requires adherents to be men?
Are women not capable of self sacrifice?
Can women not share bonds with those they fight with?
None of what you described needs to be inherently masculine, particularly in a setting that doesn't treat men and women any differently to each other anywhere else, other than in one badly dated joke to justify nuns with guns.
40k is in many ways directly at odds with our sensibilities and moral compass, which has helped to insulate it from some of the broader cultural discourse ongoing in media. Please stop interjecting these issues into a setting that is in its essence diametrically opposed to that kind of discourse.
Conversely, it could be argued that maintaining a gender bias into Space Marines when that bias doesn't actually exist in the culture that they represent does more to 'interject these issues' into the setting than allowing women to be Space Marines would.
The Imperium does not have a gender bias. We're shown no other job in the entirety of the Imperium where women are told 'Nope, can't do it. The genitals are not right for this action!' Just Space Marines.
It was not questioned back when the game was first created, because that gender bias did exist in the minds of the people playing the game. But the longer it goes on, and the more women are represented in the rest of the game, the more absurd it gets.
I'll quote Insaniak here, because I'd like to hear your answer.
This post puts it significantly better than I did.
All of those things are EXACTLY what the sisters of battle are in their own faction. To intermix them is to dilute the image of both and to essentially make one redundant. The monastic structure that they are given is in service to the broader themes of a regressive religious society, that at times forces the viewer/reader/player to question their existence nondiegetically and to come to a conclusion that it is silly in the real world. That is the very essence of the satire in 40k.
40ks best stories illustrate that societies can do evil, but individuals always have a choice to act morally despite the depravity around them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/02 05:19:39
You've literally been told why within 40k lore.
Lore: The geneseed process simply doesn't work on females for some unknown reason.
It's not an unknown reason, though. The reason is that the spectacularly ugly female models that GW tried to sell in the late '80s weren't popular, and so they added a line about space marines being men to the background to explain why the models they sold from then on were all men.
It's an anachronism based on an issue that no longer applies to the hobby, and no longer fits with the way the setting has evolved.
You're right, it's not a secret to those of us here in the real world why GW wrote the lore the way they did. That reason is always Sales/$.
But it IS an unknown reason to the characters within the game.
Sledgehammer wrote: The brotherhood, self sacrifice and monastic inspiration inherent to the cultural makeup of space marines is exactly what makes them space marines.
What exactly about a monastic lifestyle (let's ignore Space Wolves for the moment!) requires adherents to be men?
Are women not capable of self sacrifice?
Can women not share bonds with those they fight with?
None of what you described needs to be inherently masculine, particularly in a setting that doesn't treat men and women any differently to each other anywhere else, other than in one badly dated joke to justify nuns with guns.
40k is in many ways directly at odds with our sensibilities and moral compass, which has helped to insulate it from some of the broader cultural discourse ongoing in media. Please stop interjecting these issues into a setting that is in its essence diametrically opposed to that kind of discourse.
Conversely, it could be argued that maintaining a gender bias into Space Marines when that bias doesn't actually exist in the culture that they represent does more to 'interject these issues' into the setting than allowing women to be Space Marines would.
The Imperium does not have a gender bias. We're shown no other job in the entirety of the Imperium where women are told 'Nope, can't do it. The genitals are not right for this action!' Just Space Marines.
It was not questioned back when the game was first created, because that gender bias did exist in the minds of the people playing the game. But the longer it goes on, and the more women are represented in the rest of the game, the more absurd it gets.
I'll quote Insaniak here, because I'd like to hear your answer.
This post puts it significantly better than I did.
All of those things are EXACTLY what the sisters of battle are in their own faction. To intermix them is to dilute the image of both and to essentially make one redundant. The monastic structure that they are given is in service to the broader themes of a regressive religious society, that at times forces the viewer/reader/player to question their existence nondiegetically and to come to a conclusion that it is silly in the real world. That is the very essence of the satire in 40k.
40ks best stories illustrate that societies can do evil, but individuals always have a choice to act morally despite the depravity around them.
None of that has anything to do with Marines being a boys-only club.
Sisters are not female Marines, they’re the military arm of the Imperium’s religion.
Black Templars are similar, but Space Wolves aren’t. Nor are Ultramarines. Or Blood Angels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/02 05:27:03
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
You've literally been told why within 40k lore.
Lore: The geneseed process simply doesn't work on females for some unknown reason.
It's not an unknown reason, though. The reason is that the spectacularly ugly female models that GW tried to sell in the late '80s weren't popular, and so they added a line about space marines being men to the background to explain why the models they sold from then on were all men.
It's an anachronism based on an issue that no longer applies to the hobby, and no longer fits with the way the setting has evolved.
You're right, it's not a secret to those of us here in the real world why GW wrote the lore the way they did. That reason is always Sales/$.
But it IS an unknown reason to the characters within the game.
The characters in the game change drastically in knowledge and personality all the time. They are also wrong much of the time, or were when the background was more satirical.
Sledgehammer wrote: The brotherhood, self sacrifice and monastic inspiration inherent to the cultural makeup of space marines is exactly what makes them space marines.
What exactly about a monastic lifestyle (let's ignore Space Wolves for the moment!) requires adherents to be men?
Are women not capable of self sacrifice?
Can women not share bonds with those they fight with?
None of what you described needs to be inherently masculine, particularly in a setting that doesn't treat men and women any differently to each other anywhere else, other than in one badly dated joke to justify nuns with guns.
40k is in many ways directly at odds with our sensibilities and moral compass, which has helped to insulate it from some of the broader cultural discourse ongoing in media. Please stop interjecting these issues into a setting that is in its essence diametrically opposed to that kind of discourse.
Conversely, it could be argued that maintaining a gender bias into Space Marines when that bias doesn't actually exist in the culture that they represent does more to 'interject these issues' into the setting than allowing women to be Space Marines would.
The Imperium does not have a gender bias. We're shown no other job in the entirety of the Imperium where women are told 'Nope, can't do it. The genitals are not right for this action!' Just Space Marines.
It was not questioned back when the game was first created, because that gender bias did exist in the minds of the people playing the game. But the longer it goes on, and the more women are represented in the rest of the game, the more absurd it gets.
I'll quote Insaniak here, because I'd like to hear your answer.
This post puts it significantly better than I did.
All of those things are EXACTLY what the sisters of battle are in their own faction. To intermix them is to dilute the image of both and to essentially make one redundant. The monastic structure that they are given is in service to the broader themes of a regressive religious society, that at times forces the viewer/reader/player to question their existence nondiegetically and to come to a conclusion that it is silly in the real world. That is the very essence of the satire in 40k.
40ks best stories illustrate that societies can do evil, but individuals always have a choice to act morally despite the depravity around them.
None of that has anything to do with Marines being a boys-only club.
Sisters are not female Marines, they’re the military arm of the Imperium’s religion.
Black Templars are similar, but Space Wolves aren’t. Nor are Ultramarines. Or Blood Angels.
They are literally elite power armored soldiers that fight with religious zeal in a religiously structured way similar to space marine chapters. The only real tangible difference is that they look slightly differently, and use faith instead of gene modification. There are no legions anymore in the Imperium, only chapters, which are a direct callback to the Teutonic Knights as well. This includes those CHAPTERS you just mentioned.
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
Sledgehammer wrote: All of those things are EXACTLY what the sisters of battle are in their own faction. To intermix them is to dilute the image of both and to essentially make one redundant.
Sisters are the military arm of the church. Space Marines are the elite shock troops of the Imperium. Putting men into the one, or women into the other would not change that in the slightest.
The monastic structure that they are given is in service to the broader themes of a regressive religious society, that at times forces the viewer/reader/player to question their existence nondiegetically and to come to a conclusion that it is silly in the real world. That is the very essence of the satire in 40k.
That monastic structure is not reliant on them being men.
In catholic and adjacent structures, nuns and monks are essentially the same thing. The only reason they're separate is to promote celibacy. That's not an issue for Space Marines, since they have no interest in that sort of nonsense anyway. And once you remove sex from the equation, there is absolutely no reason that your monastic structure shouldn't include women.
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
The only thing preventing that culture of brotherhood from existing in an intersex organisation is the belief that men and women are inherently different. In a society that doesn't view them men and women as being different, there is no reason that culture could not include both men and women. The brotherhood comes from shared experience with fellow warriors, rather than men specifically, because the gender of that fellow warrior simply doesn't matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/02 05:52:23
Sledgehammer wrote: All of those things are EXACTLY what the sisters of battle are in their own faction. To intermix them is to dilute the image of both and to essentially make one redundant.
Sisters are the military arm of the church. Space Marines are the elite shock troops of the Imperium. Putting men into the one, or women into the other would not change that in the slightest.
The monastic structure that they are given is in service to the broader themes of a regressive religious society, that at times forces the viewer/reader/player to question their existence nondiegetically and to come to a conclusion that it is silly in the real world. That is the very essence of the satire in 40k.
That monastic structure is not reliant on them being men.
In catholic and adjacent structures, nuns and monks are essentially the same thing. The only reason they're separate is to promote celibacy. That's not an issue for Space Marines, since they have no interest in that sort of nonsense anyway. And once you remove sex from the equation, there is absolutely no reason that your monastic structure shouldn't include women.
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
The only thing preventing that culture of brotherhood from existing in an intersex organisation is the belief that men and women are inherently different. In a society that doesn't view them men and women as being different, there is no reason that culture could not include both men and women. The brotherhood comes from shared experience with fellow warriors, rather than men specifically, because the gender of that fellow warrior simply doesn't matter.
Their separation in the 40k setting is what helps to give them their very identity due to the call back and mirroring of the real world orders....
And yes, men and women are different, but we will have to agree to disagree.....
Their separation in the 40k setting is what helps to give them their very identity due to the call back and mirroring of the real world orders....
What gives them their identity is that one is the militant arm of the church, and the other is an elite force of bioengineered shock troops.
And yes, men and women are different, but we will have to agree to disagree.....
Sure... but culturally, the vast majority of those differences are entirely sociological, so in a society that views men and women as equal, they wouldn't exist.
Most of the other differences go away when you take said men and women as prepubescent youths and surgically and chemically alter them to match a specific template...
ccs wrote: You've literally been told why within 40k lore.
Lore: The geneseed process simply doesn't work on females for some unknown reason.
And you've literally been told why, "...but the lore!" isn't a valid excuse.
Lore: Cawl figured out the problem and fixed it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sledgehammer wrote: [Sisters] are literally elite power armored soldiers that fight with religious zeal in a religiously structured way similar to space marine chapters. The only real tangible difference is that they look slightly differently, and use faith instead of gene modification. There are no legions anymore in the Imperium, only chapters, which are a direct callback to the Teutonic Knights as well. This includes those CHAPTERS you just mentioned.
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
If Sisters had the exact same stats as Marines, you'd almost have a point, here. Almost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/02 08:34:32
She/Her
"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln
Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Sledgehammer wrote: The brotherhood, self sacrifice and monastic inspiration inherent to the cultural makeup of space marines is exactly what makes them space marines.
Nah. I’m pretty sure it’s the genhancement, lifelong chemical, psychic and hypnotic brainwashing that turns pre-pubescent children into 7’ combat mentalists, doomed from the second they’re brought on board as an aspirant to a life of servitude and an inevitably messy death that truly defines a Space Marine.
Their removal from humanity, to serve humanity.
The monastic thing is not inherent to them. Common across many if not most Chapters? Sure. But not an inherent, indelible part or result of being an Astartes. Nor has it anything to do with their Underpants Area. Thus, should the Y Chromosome limitation be overcome? There’s no reason the monastic vibe would change. At all.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Deus ex cawl is already a damaging thing for the canon of the universe.
Anyone insisting on it falls within the type of people that in essence ask for the accomodation of the Toyota corola in lord of the rings.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
It’s really not.
Whilst certainly a very different approach? Cawl stands as testament to what The Imperium could achieve, if it could just sort itself out.
The dude had 10,000 years and his rank to do what he did, with information and technologies nobody else had access to. He also had the standing permission of not just a Primarch, but Roboute Guilliman.
I get folk don’t like it, and fair enough, I’m not about to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t like. But please in turn acknowledge any dislike for it is also a matter of opinion.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Whilst certainly a very different approach? Cawl stands as testament to what The Imperium could achieve, if it could just sort itself out.
The dude had 10,000 years and his rank to do what he did, with information and technologies nobody else had access to. He also had the standing permission of not just a Primarch, but Roboute Guilliman.
I get folk don’t like it, and fair enough, I’m not about to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t like. But please in turn acknowledge any dislike for it is also a matter of opinion.
No he does not. Cawl does not stand the testament other than he is a cheap deus ex machina type deal to push onto you new marines without seemingly beeing disingenious.
And no that would literally break the canon even more than cawl already did. And the same for robute.
So yes, it's akin to asking for the acomodation of the toyota corola into lotr. Because that is what cawl and his antigrav and his supposedly better marines are in an imperium on total war footing and technological decay supposedly.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Whilst certainly a very different approach? Cawl stands as testament to what The Imperium could achieve, if it could just sort itself out.
The dude had 10,000 years and his rank to do what he did, with information and technologies nobody else had access to. He also had the standing permission of not just a Primarch, but Roboute Guilliman.
I get folk don’t like it, and fair enough, I’m not about to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t like. But please in turn acknowledge any dislike for it is also a matter of opinion.
Thats the point. The Imperium will not sort itself out. It's backwards by design...
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
As a whole?
No. You’re quite right. Indeed part of the tragedy, from which the satire arises, is that Literal Son’s Of The Emperor, Genecrafted Demigods, have finally returned. And are kinda powerless to right the ship.
But we still have instance of individuals providing progress, of a kind.
It could be rediscovery of an STC fragment, a world rich in Archaeotech or Lost Forgeworld returning to the fold. Or, as with Cawl, the result of 10,000 years of R&D, based on the remains of the original Astartes project.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
No. You’re quite right. Indeed part of the tragedy, from which the satire arises, is that Literal Son’s Of The Emperor, Genecrafted Demigods, have finally returned. And are kinda powerless to right the ship.
But we still have instance of individuals providing progress, of a kind.
It could be rediscovery of an STC fragment, a world rich in Archaeotech or Lost Forgeworld returning to the fold. Or, as with Cawl, the result of 10,000 years of R&D, based on the remains of the original Astartes project.
And yet you're arguing for a massive structural and cultural change in imperial society and their perception of their god's literal angels of death? Individuals being more liberal with their tolerance, sure. All of imperial society changing how they view the Adeptus Astartes, when even the Primaris are still met with hesitation and suspicion?
ya'll realize the callidus temple of assassins are all female as well, right? Same as the Sisters of Silence...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/02 10:11:53
insaniak wrote: It's not an unknown reason, though. The reason is that the spectacularly ugly female models that GW tried to sell in the late '80s weren't popular, and so they added a line about space marines being men to the background to explain why the models they sold from then on were all men.
Gabs and Jayne were first on sale in '88 - that's after the release of Rogue Trader, after the RTB01 plastic releases, after the initial marine model release, and long after the marines were defined as a 'boys only' club. Though before geneseeds.
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
This is commentary more about you, and how you view gender, rather than objective observation about reality.
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
This is commentary more about you, and how you view gender, rather than objective observation about reality.
No, your commentary is indicative of someone lacking rather in the logical department and stepping to ad hominem.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Hellebore wrote: You missed every other comment I made about there also being gendered male units. When there is parity, it's not an issue to have that. Selective quoting is not going to make you look clever.
I phrased this part in a general way on purpose instead of calling you out directly on a past quote, as I did not see you specifically arguing against the male identity. So it was not directed at you, but a remark in general. The rest of your reply to this reads to me like you are fighting an ideological battle here. This might be were we differ. My standpoint is from a perspective of "what change to the lore is fitting for the setting and makes for a better story".
insaniak wrote: There are a lot of people out there who just dislike change, regardless of how it is executed. They like things the way they are, and the immediate reaction to any change is to dislike it, because it's not what they're used to. And those people tend to be the loudest complainers, from my experience, because change is 'ruining' the thing they like... but that doesn't automatically make change a bad thing.
Fair enough, I apologise for putting words in your mouth.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Why is the lore a good reason? It's just hashed out fiction. Or is it a case of "old good new bad?"
Because the lore is what makes 40k what it is. If you take it away, it is just a bunch of neat plastic with no meaning. Why did you pick "Inquisitor Gideon" as your nickname? Could it be that you read about him or Inquisitors in the lore and thought they are cool?
It is not about "old good, new bad". It is about what I personally think is in line with the existing lore and would make for a good addition/change.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: We've established that the lore is malleable, so it's not exactly a rock-solid argument. It's hard for players to hold the lore as sacrosanct when GW doesn't.
And every other 'argument' against female Marines has basically boiled down to, 'girls have cooties'. To me, they all look like a six-year-old boy sitting in his treehouse with a paper hat and stuffed tiger dropping water balloons on the girl from across the street.
You won't convince others from your own position if you just swipe their arguments under the rug of sexism instead of engaging with them and "that one argument that you bring is not an argument for me".
Edit:
The lore may be malleable, but not every change is of equal magnitude.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/12/02 10:45:49
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
This is commentary more about you, and how you view gender, rather than objective observation about reality.
No, your commentary is indicative of someone lacking rather in the logical department and stepping to ad hominem.
The comment I was responding to was about what the poster found believable. They do not find it believable, that group composed of men and women would and could feel similar kinship as comrades in arms than a group solely composed of men would. I, on the other hand, do find that believable. I don't think men and women are inherently and essentially mentally different, nor I believe that people of different genders need to see each other as different, especially when brought up in cultures and existing in an environment where such differences are not seen as culturally significant. What we find believable is subjective, and always says something about who we are. That is not an ad hominem. Now saying that one is lacking in logic department probably is though.
No. You’re quite right. Indeed part of the tragedy, from which the satire arises, is that Literal Son’s Of The Emperor, Genecrafted Demigods, have finally returned. And are kinda powerless to right the ship.
But we still have instance of individuals providing progress, of a kind.
It could be rediscovery of an STC fragment, a world rich in Archaeotech or Lost Forgeworld returning to the fold. Or, as with Cawl, the result of 10,000 years of R&D, based on the remains of the original Astartes project.
And yet you're arguing for a massive structural and cultural change in imperial society and their perception of their god's literal angels of death? Individuals being more liberal with their tolerance, sure. All of imperial society changing how they view the Adeptus Astartes, when even the Primaris are still met with hesitation and suspicion?
ya'll realize the callidus temple of assassins are all female as well, right? Same as the Sisters of Silence...
I see you’ve not bothered to read the rest of the thread. Allow me to recap.
Callidus Assassins are predominantly female. This is because, for reasons not explored in any depth in the background, Polymorphine works best on women. But note, they are not exclusively women.
Sisters of Silence? These guys are weird. Blanks are stupendously rare. Yet here, we have a military order comprised entirely of blanks. Yet, they’re also all women. Why is never really explored. But given they came from a single, existing cult, on a single planet? The concentration of Blanks must be treated as highly unusual, and perhaps a bit suspect. I’ve postulated in the past that there’s likely some gene science going on there - and they may even have some kind of Primarch analogous source. Are female candidates clones inherent to that tech, or just a cultural norm? We have absolutely no idea. It’s another of the many mysteries of 40K and indeed the Horus Heresy. But there must be something going on, because when the naturally occurring resource is mind bogglingly rare, there has to be something reason you’re then limiting yourself to just 50% of what’s available to work with.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
This is commentary more about you, and how you view gender, rather than objective observation about reality.
No, your commentary is indicative of someone lacking rather in the logical department and stepping to ad hominem.
Insulting someone and then accusing them of ad hominem in the same sentence is certainly an interesting choice
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
This is commentary more about you, and how you view gender, rather than objective observation about reality.
No, your commentary is indicative of someone lacking rather in the logical department and stepping to ad hominem.
The comment I was responding to was about what the poster found believable. They do not find it believable, that group composed of men and women would and could feel similar kinship as comrades in arms than a group solely composed of men would. I, on the other hand, do find that believable. I don't think men and women are inherently and essentially mentally different, nor I believe that people of different genders need to see each other as different, especially when brought up in cultures and existing in an environment where such differences are not seen as culturally significant. What we find believable is subjective, and always says something about who we are. That is not an ad hominem. Now saying that one is lacking in logic department probably is though.
Why? There was too much data pointing to the biological basis of sex-based cognitive differences to ignore, Halpern says. For one thing, the animal-research findings resonated with sex-based differences ascribed to people. These findings continue to accrue. In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys’ parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks. A much more recent study established that boys and girls 9 to 17 months old — an age when children show few if any signs of recognizing either their own or other children’s sex — nonetheless show marked differences in their preference for stereotypically male versus stereotypically female toys.
Halpern and others have cataloged plenty of human behavioral differences. “These findings have all been replicated,” she says. Women excel in several measures of verbal ability — pretty much all of them, except for verbal analogies. Women’s reading comprehension and writing ability consistently exceed that of men, on average. They outperform men in tests of fine-motor coordination and perceptual speed. They’re more adept at retrieving information from long-term memory.
Men, on average, can more easily juggle items in working memory. They have superior visuospatial skills: They’re better at visualizing what happens when a complicated two- or three-dimensional shape is rotated in space, at correctly determining angles from the horizontal, at tracking moving objects and at aiming projectiles.
Insulting someone and then accusing them of ad hominem in the same sentence is certainly an interesting choice
Browbeating, denial of access to observeable reality and insinuating that reflects poorly on someone isn't an ad hominem? Even when observable reality is actually the supposed "enlightened" position of assuming equality where there is not?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/02 11:57:07
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
And tell me.
Does that study include the brains of chemically, hypnotically and psychically brainwashed post-humans stuffed full of who-knows-what synthetic hormones and organs and dooberries and that? Specifically of participants subjected to such horrifying treatment and “enhancement” before their brain has finished its natural development?
It….its doesn’t?
Y’don’t say!
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Does that study include the brains of chemically, hypnotically and psychically brainwashed post-humans stuffed full of who-knows-what synthetic hormones and organs and dooberries and that? Specifically of participants subjected to such horrifying treatment and “enhancement” before their brain has finished its natural development?
It….its doesn’t?
Y’don’t say!
it doesn't need to since the "material" input already had these diffrences at what was it the age of?
Many of these cognitive differences appear quite early in life. “You see sex differences in spatial-visualization ability in 2- and 3-month-old infants,” Halpern says. Infant girls respond more readily to faces and begin talking earlier. Boys react earlier in infancy to experimentally induced perceptual discrepancies in their visual environment. In adulthood, women remain more oriented to faces, men to things.
whilest SM initiation is at what ? 10 to 14?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
So for your next trick?
Show us, beyond “nuh-uh”, how the Astartes Conversion process leaves the brain entirely untouched?
Only we’re talking about a level of technology used in varying ways. Thunder Warriors, Primarchs, Astartes, Cloneskeins, Goliaths, Abhumans. All share a seemingly common ancestry in technology.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
If you don't like all male Marines, play a game that follows the way you think the world works, and stop trying to change the game as is
Men and women are different. They organize differently, develop differently, and have different roles that is based on biology, not ideology. If this offends you, then reality offends you. That is a you problem, not the rest of the world's problem.
Outside of that the culture of brotherhood cannot exist in the same way or capacity in an intersex organization. It's just quite frankly not believable. The space marines would have to change to accommodate, and thus in my opinion lose their identity in the process.
This is commentary more about you, and how you view gender, rather than objective observation about reality.
No, your commentary is indicative of someone lacking rather in the logical department and stepping to ad hominem.
The comment I was responding to was about what the poster found believable. They do not find it believable, that group composed of men and women would and could feel similar kinship as comrades in arms than a group solely composed of men would. I, on the other hand, do find that believable. I don't think men and women are inherently and essentially mentally different, nor I believe that people of different genders need to see each other as different, especially when brought up in cultures and existing in an environment where such differences are not seen as culturally significant. What we find believable is subjective, and always says something about who we are. That is not an ad hominem. Now saying that one is lacking in logic department probably is though.
Why? There was too much data pointing to the biological basis of sex-based cognitive differences to ignore, Halpern says. For one thing, the animal-research findings resonated with sex-based differences ascribed to people. These findings continue to accrue. In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys’ parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks. A much more recent study established that boys and girls 9 to 17 months old — an age when children show few if any signs of recognizing either their own or other children’s sex — nonetheless show marked differences in their preference for stereotypically male versus stereotypically female toys.
Halpern and others have cataloged plenty of human behavioral differences. “These findings have all been replicated,” she says. Women excel in several measures of verbal ability — pretty much all of them, except for verbal analogies. Women’s reading comprehension and writing ability consistently exceed that of men, on average. They outperform men in tests of fine-motor coordination and perceptual speed. They’re more adept at retrieving information from long-term memory.
Men, on average, can more easily juggle items in working memory. They have superior visuospatial skills: They’re better at visualizing what happens when a complicated two- or three-dimensional shape is rotated in space, at correctly determining angles from the horizontal, at tracking moving objects and at aiming projectiles.
Insulting someone and then accusing them of ad hominem in the same sentence is certainly an interesting choice
Browbeating, denial of access to observeable reality and insinuating that reflects poorly on someone isn't an ad hominem? Even when observable reality is actually the supposed "enlightened" position of assuming equality where there is not?
There are some physical differences in brains, yes, but that wasn't really the point being made, was it? The point was about nature vs nurture as root cause for behavior.
Sledgehammer stated that intersex brotherhood is unbelievable. This merely reveals they think it is unbelievable (note their lack of sources making this an opinion instead of a fact). So it seems like a pretty spot on reaction to me.
You're also conveniently sidestepping the fact that you're insulting someone while calling them out for ad hominem.