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I don’t really see the imperium as fascist, that never rang true with me, I see them as much more of a Stalinist regime. Much more utilitarian than the nazis, yes they are intolerant and xenophobic but only to protect the state, the state (imperium) is all. Which is may the no female marines makes no sense. The imperium being very utilitarian and Stalinist is very happy to make use all people in the state.
And to be clear calling it Stalinist is not a good thing, they were as evil as the nazis, and so is the imperium.
Andykp wrote: I don’t really see the imperium as fascist, that never rang true with me, I see them as much more of a Stalinist regime. Much more utilitarian than the nazis, yes they are intolerant and xenophobic but only to protect the state, the state (imperium) is all. Which is may the no female marines makes no sense. The imperium being very utilitarian and Stalinist is very happy to make use all people in the state.
And to be clear calling it Stalinist is not a good thing, they were as evil as the nazis, and so is the imperium.
Yeah, no. The Imperium is fascist. The Imperium seeks to maintain a highly stratified society ruled by literal noble bloodlines where power is hereditary. That's about as far from Stalin as you can get who hated rich landowners so much that he had them all killed.
The state was everything in Nazi Germany as well. It also utilised a strict hierarchical structure for its society based on nazi pseudo-biology which separated the people into different groups, like the untermenschen. This is also seen in the Imperium where abhumans occupy a lesser role in imperial society relative to non-mutant humans based on their biology, and many mutants are literally classed as needing to be genocided, just like the classes that the Nazis considered impure like the Jews, the disabled, the Romani etc.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/12/18 15:07:38
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
My history is sketchy, but didn't Stalin then just impose new rich land owners by the end of the regime. Or if not impose they would arise within the system anyway.
It's a common practice with a violent or rapid succession of power to oust the old rich and steadily bring in new rich.
Kings and Queens did it for generations - kill the ruling powers; wipe them out and then put your own in their place.
The Imperium is a mish-mash of different ruling systems. It has a top end, but at the local system end it can be almost anything. Royals, democracy, etc....
You can also argue that in many ways its basically a military dictatorship since every wing of power is basically a military force.
The one joke Space Marine 2 DOES get right consistently is the Mechanicum. They constantly order you perform some sacred right or complete a ritual prior to having you press a button or flip a switch. It definitely leaves you aware that no one has any idea how any of this works.
Beyond that there's not really a depiction of the Imperium itself. By the time the game starts the world is already fully engaged with the Tyranids and you're basically playing through the ruins of a world that's already dead.
The Imperium is characterized by authoritarian rule, extreme nationalism, and a rigid hierarchy, which are common traits associated with fascism.
Key aspects that contribute to this perception include:
1. Authoritarianism: The Imperium is ruled by the God-Emperor, and there is little tolerance for dissent. The Adeptus Terra, the governing body, enforces strict control over the populace.
2. Militarism: The Imperium places a strong emphasis on military power and expansion, often engaging in brutal warfare against perceived threats.
3. Cult of Personality: The Emperor is venerated as a god, and this cult-like devotion mirrors aspects of fascist regimes that glorify their leaders.
4. Xenophobia: The Imperium is highly xenophobic, viewing alien species as threats to humanity and often engaging in genocidal campaigns against them.
5. Suppression of Individualism: The needs of the state and the collective are prioritized over individual rights, with citizens often expected to sacrifice for the greater good of humanity.
While these elements can be seen as fascist, the Warhammer 40,000 universe is intentionally exaggerated and dystopian, drawing on various historical and political influences to create a grim dark setting.
The portrayal of the Imperium serves as a critique of authoritarianism and the consequences of extreme ideologies.... at least it used to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/18 15:10:01
BorderCountess wrote: Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Fascist Regency now Guilliman has returned and been declared, well, Regent.
But prior to his return, it was still some form of Regency, where The Emperor was the de facto head of state. But due to being mostly all dead, couldn’t play an active role, so the High Lords spoke for him.
I dare say there is a term for that, but I’m not sure what that term might be,
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Overread wrote: My history is sketchy, but didn't Stalin then just impose new rich land owners by the end of the regime.
I think you are thinking of the people who benefitted from the New Economic Policy under Lenin, which was a roll back of the original Bolshevik policy towards farming, in which farmers who produced more than the required quota were allowed to sell the excess and make profit. The people who were able to effectively utilise this policy were the richer landowning peasants called the kulaks. They were effectively liquidated as a class by Stalin via executions, land confiscation and deportation during the collectivisation of soviet farmland which put the vast majority of it effectively under control of the soviet state, mostly via "worker co-operative" collective farms called Kolkhozes. By 1940, around 78% of soviet farmland was under the control of Kolkhozes, 9% under directly state controlled farms, and 9.5% individual peasant farms. In 1928 96% of farmland in the Soviet Union had been under the control of individual peasant farms.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/18 15:24:19
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
You can make the argument that Stalin himself was fascist with the cult of personality he build around himself, all the wars of conquest and expansion he did, all the repression and genocide and how he centralized power on the Communist Party and on himself.
And while that's a Rogue Trader image, there's a modern version of the Ultramarines (the "good guys") in military parade, it's just from the side looking down the rows of troops. The composition is less overt, but it's essentially the same thing.
You know LOADS of countries do that right?
Parading your army before your leaders in the capital is kinda a thing countries like to do. Many do it every single year.
Like if they were to do one for the Krieg they'd probably pick some photos based on the UK mounted cavalry parading with the Krieg Cavalry parading
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/12/18 16:20:22
And while that's a Rogue Trader image, there's a modern version of the Ultramarines (the "good guys") in military parade, it's just from the side looking down the rows of troops. The composition is less overt, but it's essentially the same thing.
George Lucas did the same thing for Star Wars.... which Abrams would steal and wedge into his Trilogy.
BorderCountess wrote: Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
Overread wrote: You know LOADS of countries do that right?
Parading your army before your leaders in the capital is kinda a thing countries like to do. Many do it every single year.
Like if they were to do one for the Krieg they'd probably pick some photos based on the UK mounted cavalry parading with the Krieg Cavalry parading
It's very likely that a bunch of people in the UK growing up in the post-war era and leaning towards a major interest in the history of warfare would reference nazi propaganda to immediately convey "vicious dictatorship" to what they thought would be mostly people similar to themselves.
And while that's a Rogue Trader image, there's a modern version of the Ultramarines (the "good guys") in military parade, it's just from the side looking down the rows of troops. The composition is less overt, but it's essentially the same thing.
George Lucas did the same thing for Star Wars.... which Abrams would steal and wedge into his Trilogy.
Leni Riefenstahl movies obviously had an impact on Hollywood's depiction of armies in formation. Even moreso than the actual parades.
And while that's a Rogue Trader image, there's a modern version of the Ultramarines (the "good guys") in military parade, it's just from the side looking down the rows of troops. The composition is less overt, but it's essentially the same thing.
George Lucas did the same thing for Star Wars.... which Abrams would steal and wedge into his Trilogy.
Leni Riefenstahl movies obviously had an impact on Hollywood's depiction of armies in formation. Even moreso than the actual parades.
Oh is that image from the Riefenstahl film/s? Makes sense.
In the context of the greater argument we should be honest and say that at least in the Star Wars usage it was clear that those were the bad guys. The tension in 40k is that the outward presentation is heroic, and then as you dig deeper you get the "wait . . Are we the baddies?" moment.
So either way, the imperium are douche bags who exploit everything and everyone in it, so why not have the whole population eligible to become super soldiers?
Because its the same Imperium that has the technology and resources to create the Space Marines and yet they choose to rely most upon the Imperial Guard - an armed force that uses meat-grinder tactics and trench warfare.
The same Imperium that will request munitions from a world under siege to send to a munitions depo that's so over-stocked that they are destroying munitions upon arrival.
And while that's a Rogue Trader image, there's a modern version of the Ultramarines (the "good guys") in military parade, it's just from the side looking down the rows of troops. The composition is less overt, but it's essentially the same thing.
George Lucas did the same thing for Star Wars.... which Abrams would steal and wedge into his Trilogy.
Leni Riefenstahl movies obviously had an impact on Hollywood's depiction of armies in formation. Even moreso than the actual parades.
Oh is that image from the Riefenstahl film/s? Makes sense.
In the context of the greater argument we should be honest and say that at least in the Star Wars usage it was clear that those were the bad guys. The tension in 40k is that the outward presentation is heroic, and then as you dig deeper you get the "wait . . Are we the baddies?" moment.
The scene in Star Wars is the award ceremony at the end of A New Hope. I certainly hope the rebellion weren't the bad guys.... or were they?
BorderCountess wrote: Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
Overread wrote: Because its the same Imperium that has the technology and resources to create the Space Marines and yet they choose to rely most upon the Imperial Guard - an armed force that uses meat-grinder tactics and trench warfare.
The same Imperium that will request munitions from a world under siege to send to a munitions depo that's so over-stocked that they are destroying munitions upon arrival.
They have the technology and resources to create Custodes (which aren't gender-locked), so why do they even bother with Astartes?
The answers to your question and mine have nothing to do with the core question of: "Why can't girls be Marines?"
She/Her
"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln
Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.
Overread wrote: Because its the same Imperium that has the technology and resources to create the Space Marines and yet they choose to rely most upon the Imperial Guard - an armed force that uses meat-grinder tactics and trench warfare.
The same Imperium that will request munitions from a world under siege to send to a munitions depo that's so over-stocked that they are destroying munitions upon arrival.
They have the technology and resources to create Custodes (which aren't gender-locked), so why do they even bother with Astartes?
The answers to your question and mine have nothing to do with the core question of: "Why can't girls be Marines?"
The issue that a lot of people have is that there isn't a good reason to deny this.
And after reading 4 hours of lore changes to the frigging Necrons, I've learned nothing is set in stone.
BorderCountess wrote: Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
The Oldcrons/Newcrons break was my stepping off point for the fluff. It’s when 40k went from a great setting with lore that I felt must be respected to the equivalent of a JJ Abrams reboot for me. There’s still some fun to be had thanks to Black Library, but my emotional investment in 40k dropped dramatically.
And yet, I bought plenty of the Newcron models to use in my Oldcron army. I even bought a Tombkings Sphinx to use as my C’Tan. If they ever release plastic Ushabti, I’d probably get one to use as a rival C’Tan. I got to keep my dudes as my dudes, despite the lore changes. And I’ve found many better game settings since losing my GW-only hobby.
The only reason to keep Marines as all male is politics, real life politics. However well meaning or toxic it’s only your politics that makes you against female marines if you are. There is nothing to debate beyond that.
. . .
It is time for GW to make the change and bring in female marines. And if it drives a few toxic people to quit the hobby then the community will be better off for it.
Breton wrote: How much less toxic does it get when you tell people who disagree with you its only because of their toxic politics protecting the status quo. . .
1) If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
From this exchange it seems like the idea that "the only reason to oppose FSM is toxic politics" is a MOD supported view.
So a "lore conservative" like myself is just gonna catch that labeling, I guess?
Read carefully what I wrote in your quote there.
I clearly said there was room for well meaning politics as well as toxic, it is you attaching the word toxic to every use of the word politics, I accept that some people will have genuine beliefs that are well intentioned and not harmful that mean they would prefer to keep gender politics out of 40K. You quotation that "the only reason to oppose FSM is toxic politics" is entirely your own creation and not anything I said.
Fair call, I misread that. My bad. There was something more blatant earlier in the thread, but that wasn't you.
My point about there being no debate beyond that is that there is no point rehashing the same lore arguments over and over because they have been shown to be completely baseless. Yourself as a “lore conservative”, you must have some tolerance for lore changes or you wouldn’t have stayed with 40K over all the sweeping lore changes that have been across the decades of its existence. Or do you not acknowledge tau, dark eldar, leagues of votan, every spacemarine tank that isn’t a landraider, rhino or predator all the new and wonderful marine units added over the years??? Where your red line lore wise, just female marines? I suspect, because the lore arguments don’t add up that there are other reasons, but I have no idea how toxic or wholesome they are.
Hehe. I have to say it's you who are making assumptions here though. I've been vocal about many, many changes over the years. Primaris, Centurions, the addition of SM flyers to the army. The changes making Necrons into "Newcrons", degradations or shifts in statlines changing factional balances etc. and I disliked it when the Salamanders went from being "black" to "coal-black-mutation". I dislike generally moving the story forward, The Great Rift, the returning of the Primarchs, and to be fair, I'm not too keen on anything that isn't the classic Land Raider loadout either, although it's easier to waive that one because it HAS been 10,000 years and chassis-weapon-variants has some history. If you want to get nitty gritty, I didn't mind things like Tau and Dark Eldar because they didn't actually change any pre-existing lore or themes that I'm aware of, they just added to the 40K tapestry.
And my money has already gone where my mouth is. I don't give any money to GW anymore. My collection is extensive and I've got what I want, and if I really want anything else I get it secondhand. When I field my Space Marines they'll look quite a bit like an army that could have been fielded in 2nd edition. And when I field my Eldar infantry, they'll be all metal.
Mind you, I'm vocal about the FSM not because I'm particularly passionate about it, but more because the topic is interesting. Can there be products or stories aimed primarily at young men? I think so. Are Space Marines one of those products? I think so. Does a fictional universe have a right to impose restrictions or sensibilities some find problematic? Spicy, but yeah they have that right. Where's the cutoff? Oooh, I dunno.
Andykp wrote: The reason that the lore as is creates a toxic environment is because it enables those that do hold toxic beliefs and gives them authority to enforce those. And THAT needs challenging to create an environment where abuse and exclusion are not tolerated and have no support. And a faction of the community claiming to be the victims whilst attempting to exclude people from the hobby does nothing but reinforce the toxic culture. The only people I want to see out of the hobby are those that will abuse and exclude others, and I’m pretty sure most would agree with that stance.
I see where you're coming from, but I just disagree. I think the "enabling" argument is somewhat flawed because you could make a similar "enabling" argument about the fascist underpinnings of the Imperium ("40K is the gateway drug to fascism!"), and I certainly wouldn't want the Imperium to be changed for the sake of political correctness. I see it as part of the "edge" or flavor of the 40K universe. I think the universe is more interesting when it has these ideological tensions within it, and I don't think the reasoning of "some people might use it to be a jerk!" is a good enough one to change it. I imagine those that do are going to be obnoxious anyhow.
More/better female representation can be had in 40K without resorting to lore changes. It's already happening and I'm all for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: @MDG, You say marines never had any fundamental changes since 2nd, but didn’t they undergo a massive change to their progression path in 5th? From scout->tactical->specialist, wasn’t it changed to scout->specialist->other specialist->tactical marine? It was something that changed the lore in a pretty big way for people reading BL books, playing Dark Heresy etc., or keeping track of their individual marines.
I actually don't know where progression was described prior to the Ward 5th edition book, or what it was.
I thought I should take the time to reply to you directly as you did with me, and it’s really refreshing to have a reply like yours, thank you.
I grant you I may ave some assumptions and fair play to you making a stand and not buying GW stuff etc but you do admit that you have “some” tolerance to lore changes but you clearly like your lore old school.
I have nothing against products and things being aimed at young men, but they shouldn’t be “exclusive” to them, something like Warhammer 40K that aims to build a community should be inclusive.
For me, the reason the lore needs to change is that that bit of lore is used to exclude real people and defend really unpleasant attitudes and views. It would be a huge step for inclusion in the hobby and would disarm the Misogynistic minority who want to exclude women. Not only that, in this day and age it sounds silly that girls aren’t allowed.
When I compare this thread to one I started on this topic years ago that was closed down after a barrage of hate and bile in a matter of hours, we are seeing real progress. And if that progress is just that those who spout that hate just don’t feel able to do so anymore that’s still progress. The community is still better off because of it. If those people have left, even better, off you feth. Hopefully some of those will actually have seen how stupid they were being and changed their mind. People who just disagree but can be civil and respectful of others don’t need to go anywhere.
Would Space Marines stop being aimed at "young men" if there were women in their ranks?
Surely it didn't stop (new) Star Wars if you look at any Kindergarten.
It never stopped Star Trek from being popular among young men.
It doesn't stop Tau, to stay at 40k, they're pretty similar in their appearance to SM: giant suits with pew pew. They also have women (and they're aliens) but I wouldn't say they don’t appeal to boyz?
Overread wrote: Because its the same Imperium that has the technology and resources to create the Space Marines and yet they choose to rely most upon the Imperial Guard - an armed force that uses meat-grinder tactics and trench warfare.
The same Imperium that will request munitions from a world under siege to send to a munitions depo that's so over-stocked that they are destroying munitions upon arrival.
They have the technology and resources to create Custodes (which aren't gender-locked), so why do they even bother with Astartes?
The answers to your question and mine have nothing to do with the core question of: "Why can't girls be Marines?"
The issue that a lot of people have is that there isn't a good reason to deny this.
And after reading 4 hours of lore changes to the frigging Necrons, I've learned nothing is set in stone.
On Guardsman - Astartes - Custodes?
It’s a matter of resources.
The Imperium is vast. Mind bogglingly so.
Guardsmen, like non-com smelly hoomans are very much ten a penny. And man’s inhumanity to man, to protect, erm, *checks notes*….man? That’s a central part of the satire. Millions killed every day by brutal and uncaring tactics, to prop things up so tomorrow….Millions can be killed by brutal and uncaring tactics, to prop things up so tomorrow….and so on and so forth.
Astartes? Well to make one, you need Geneseed. And Geneseed is a strictly finite resource. Yes the more Marines you create, the more Geneseed you can harvest. Eventually. Plus you then need to arm, equip and transport them.
Custodes? We still don’t know exactly how they’re made beyond “hand wavey bio space magic science stuff”. But being His personal bodyguard? You only need so many. And whatever the underlying process is? If it could’ve been done on a massive scale, we simply wouldn’t have Astartes as they are now.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
The problem is its hard to apply sensible logistical issues to 40k.
If Marines were as scarce as regularly mentioned in lore - i.e. 1000 chapters of 1000 marines (before Primaris anyway), then they'd have long ceased to exist.
Thats about a million Marines.In a universe of... what? Countless trillions? Quadrillions?
I mean Eldar are "a dying race". Sure - but they've got nothing on say the Ultramarines or Blood Angels etc, who in demographic terms may as well not exist - and would almost certainly be wiped out in even a small engagement. (This is in turn why you need/get Movie Marines).
Its "there are as many elves as the plot requires" all the way down.
Guardsmen, like non-com smelly hoomans are very much ten a penny. And man’s inhumanity to man, to protect, erm, *checks notes*….man? That’s a central part of the satire. Millions killed every day by brutal and uncaring tactics, to prop things up so tomorrow….Millions can be killed by brutal and uncaring tactics, to prop things up so tomorrow….and so on and so forth.
Astartes? Well to make one, you need Geneseed. And Geneseed is a strictly finite resource. Yes the more Marines you create, the more Geneseed you can harvest. Eventually. Plus you then need to arm, equip and transport them.
I'm not sure how the development of Primaris disrupted the 1k limit on marines, which I think I read once upon a time, was imposed after the Heresy to limit the potential for another Heresy. If so, and if Primaris DID disrupt that prohibition, GW could be laying the groundwork for another Heresy four or five editions from now... Except Hersy 2.0 won't exclude Sisters and Xenos in the same way as HH.
Either way, however, if we're assuming that the conversion process from human to Marine is what give the Marine its strength and durability and not so much the traits of the pre-transformation human, the rarity of Marines isn't really an argument for excluding women. I think chapters may look for strength of character to ensure that candidates stay true to chapter and Imperium post conversion knowing that the physical stuff will be taken care of by the transformation itself.
Custodes? We still don’t know exactly how they’re made beyond “hand wavey bio space magic science stuff”. But being His personal bodyguard? You only need so many. And whatever the underlying process is? If it could’ve been done on a massive scale, we simply wouldn’t have Astartes as they are now.
I think a big part of the Custodes is that they have to be tough enough to defend AGAINST renegade Marines. But Guilliman's decision to deploy Custodes as part of the Indomitus Crusade may mean that production was stepped up in order to ensure that the defenders of Terra are still plentiful enough despite the Indomitus deployments.
Tyel wrote: The problem is its hard to apply sensible logistical issues to 40k.
If Marines were as scarce as regularly mentioned in lore - i.e. 1000 chapters of 1000 marines (before Primaris anyway), then they'd have long ceased to exist.
Thats about a million Marines.In a universe of... what? Countless trillions? Quadrillions?
I mean Eldar are "a dying race". Sure - but they've got nothing on say the Ultramarines or Blood Angels etc, who in demographic terms may as well not exist - and would almost certainly be wiped out in even a small engagement. (This is in turn why you need/get Movie Marines).
Its "there are as many elves as the plot requires" all the way down.
There are around 3,000 Navy SEALs to 345,000,000 Americans. Small numbers are only an impediment if you treat Marines like the de facto fighting force of the Imperium while everyone else cheerleads behind them, rather than as special forces used to carry out sensitive missions or act as force multipliers.
Tyel wrote: The problem is its hard to apply sensible logistical issues to 40k.
If Marines were as scarce as regularly mentioned in lore - i.e. 1000 chapters of 1000 marines (before Primaris anyway), then they'd have long ceased to exist.
Thats about a million Marines.In a universe of... what? Countless trillions? Quadrillions?
I mean Eldar are "a dying race". Sure - but they've got nothing on say the Ultramarines or Blood Angels etc, who in demographic terms may as well not exist - and would almost certainly be wiped out in even a small engagement. (This is in turn why you need/get Movie Marines).
Its "there are as many elves as the plot requires" all the way down.
Sources back around 4th edition implied 100’s of trillions to quadrillions of Imperial Guard, 100’s of quadrillions to quintillions of humans in the IoM. There are likely a million times as many blanks in the galaxy as there are space marines.
Tyel wrote: The problem is its hard to apply sensible logistical issues to 40k.
If Marines were as scarce as regularly mentioned in lore - i.e. 1000 chapters of 1000 marines (before Primaris anyway), then they'd have long ceased to exist.
Thats about a million Marines.In a universe of... what? Countless trillions? Quadrillions?
I mean Eldar are "a dying race". Sure - but they've got nothing on say the Ultramarines or Blood Angels etc, who in demographic terms may as well not exist - and would almost certainly be wiped out in even a small engagement. (This is in turn why you need/get Movie Marines).
Its "there are as many elves as the plot requires" all the way down.
There are around 3,000 Navy SEALs to 345,000,000 Americans. Small numbers are only an impediment if you treat Marines like the de facto fighting force of the Imperium while everyone else cheerleads behind them, rather than as special forces used to carry out sensitive missions or act as force multipliers.
Yeah, Space Marines should have been an elite option for the Imperial Guard, not whole armies complete with large scale battle tactics (on open fields, no less!) and armoured vehicles.
I suspect its because of the move from 2nd ed to 3rd ed.
IIRC 2nd ed was more of a skirmish game where having a faction dedicated to an elite faction like marines makes sense, but 3rd ed was a company level system. Instead of designing marines to make sense to reflect the change in scale (such as making them incredibly powerful but rare unit choices for imperial armies or having them accompanied by chapter serfs to explain how they can deploy in open battle without relying on plot armour), they kept them as they are and had to make them more ridiculous to keep up.
Marine favoritism and its consequences have been a disaster for the game's system and setting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/12/19 22:25:48
What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
~4100
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