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The alcohol made for Space Wolves is, due to their enhanced biology. The mortals? Less so.

I’d imagine it’s still comparatively potent stuff.

My summary of the last few pages, marines recruit any old dregs while they’re young and put them through harsh to lethal trials. None of that means aspirants must be male or are more likely to succeed if they are male. It makes no difference at all.

And as the limitation is of a purely technological nature? It remains possible for that limitation to be removed.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
In a world where Adepta Sororitas plastic models exist (and Sisters of Silence could possibly be expanded as a faction), the need for "female Space Marines" and another "we are modern and progressive look at us" retcon (hello Adeptus Custodes), seems like a very politically oriented agenda to me, that is unnecessary to the settings, and also to the model range.

That said, given what we have seen in the videogame industry during the last 10years, and the Custodes precedent, it is only a matter of time i guess.

I have Sword Angels (Dark Angels and Blood Angels) for the bling, Ultramarines for the classical look, Space Wolves and a small force of Egyptian themed ‘loyalists’ because I love all those flavors. SOB only come in one flavor, one which pisses off my wife, which is extremely limiting. If they start selling Classical, werewolf and Egyptian flavor Sisters of Battle, maybe you’d have a point.

If you think the existence of a whole gender is political?

Just….take a deep breath. Or a few. And remember to keep breathing.

 Crimson wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except there are repeated parts in the fluff where they do die. So yes, they are sending children off to their deaths, with only a few individuals passing.

Some certainly will die. But the tests are generally not pass or fail binaries. Many chapters recruit failed aspirants as chapter serfs, which sorta implies that those failed aspirants are alive...

In Wraight’s Space Wolf books, aren’t there like dozens of serfs for every Space Wolf? Granted, most of them were born into the role, but I recall they’re all failed aspirants or descendants of failed aspirants.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
In a world where Adepta Sororitas plastic models exist (and Sisters of Silence could possibly be expanded as a faction), the need for "female Space Marines" and another "we are modern and progressive look at us" retcon (hello Adeptus Custodes), seems like a very politically oriented agenda to me, that is unnecessary to the settings, and also to the model range.

That said, given what we have seen in the videogame industry during the last 10years, and the Custodes precedent, it is only a matter of time i guess.

I have Sword Angels (Dark Angels and Blood Angels) for the bling, Ultramarines for the classical look, Space Wolves and a small force of Egyptian themed ‘loyalists’ because I love all those flavors. SOB only come in one flavor, one which pisses off my wife, which is extremely limiting. If they start selling Classical, werewolf and Egyptian flavor Sisters of Battle, maybe you’d have a point.

They really should. Marines and Guard (or used to rather, before GW axed most of their lines leaving just Cadia and Catachans. At least Krieg is coming out) get a bunch of variants, but sisters? A bit limited.
I like their overall baroque aesthetic but some Eastern Orthodox, Shield Maiden or Middle Eastern inspired variants would be nice.

Deathmosfear wrote:

ccs wrote:

Deathmosfear wrote:
Hi all. I'm going to share my opinion

Thanks for kicking this dead horse just to tell us that you don't have a real position on this subject.

I think I’ve made my "position" quite clear when I said that personally, I don’t like FSM and won’t include them in my lore. As I mentioned, I’m an old-school player and won’t get into debates about whether the lack of female Astartes is due to political reasons or if it makes sense within the 'science' of 40K. That’s just how it used to be, and that’s how it will remain for me.

I also don’t play with Primaris or Primarchs, and I have nothing against their sale—I simply don’t care about the current lore. Cheers.

This is a stance I respect, as I also don’t do Primaris marines*. GW can sell them, but I chose not to let them into my hobby.


*I did buy a bunch of the skull mask stealth Primaris heads to make chaplains, though.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
SOB only come in one flavor, one which pisses off my wife, which is extremely limiting. If they start selling Classical, werewolf and Egyptian flavor Sisters of Battle, maybe you’d have a point.

I mean "only one flavour" is how pretty much EVERY faction that isn't a Space Marine or WW2 army comes in most games.

In the lore there are LOADS but in the game as physical models GW only makes 1 type of each brand unless its a Marine because they are an abnormality that just sells like crazy even when its the same design language and model just one has a horse hoof on its shoulder and the other a teardrop and another has some wolf pelts on it.

I'd love to see Tyranids from different Hive Fleets; different Craftworlds and more - but I also accept that sales wise that doesn't work for GW unless those armies are bonkers popular and just nothing else touches on marines. Especially in a consistent manner over the decades.


Of course today you've got 3d printing and 3rd parties - you can find alternatives out there that aren't just "GW model", but hwich fit the scale, army slots and basic design language.




Lets not forget until recently with the plastic, SoB were a back-burner army that didn't even get a proper codex for ages nor even an advance upgrade of models into finecast.

Sisters have also had an odd ride.

Originally? Chaff unit in the form of Freataris Militia.

Then the chaff was Redemptionists.

Then you had no chaff, but got more metal models, sans Codex if memory serves. But what you’ve always had, until what feels relatively recently? No Plastic Infantry. Indeed, the only plastic model in their range was the old Rhino chassis. Then the new Rhino chassis.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sisters have also had an odd ride.

Originally? Chaff unit in the form of Freataris Militia.

Then the chaff was Redemptionists.

Then you had no chaff, but got more metal models, sans Codex if memory serves. But what you’ve always had, until what feels relatively recently? No Plastic Infantry. Indeed, the only plastic model in their range was the old Rhino chassis. Then the new Rhino chassis.

Sisters were basically all metal until very recently yeah. They did that whole "skipping an edition" with their codex; didn't get any updated plastic models nor any new models for utterly ages. So basically they got zero attention which chipped away their sales and popularity to theory popularity. If they'd been removed entirely it would not have been a shock.

Instead GW went all in and honestly should have kept going all in featuring them more in marketing alongside Marines

And as someone who was there at the time? A slightly tongue in cheek quote.

Tim Bisley wrote: You are so blind! You so do not understand! You weren't there at the beginning! You don't know how good it was, how important!

Sisters of Battle released right at the very arse end of 2nd Edition. And they were mega.

Not just all female, at a time when pretty much any female model was a genuine novelty? But a whole new Imperial army, and a deep dive into the Ecclesiarchy and its foibles, like we’d never had before. Even when their range comprised of assorted characters, Frateris Militia, Sisters Infantry, Seraphim, Rhino and Immolator.


They were John Blanche artwork brought to the tabletop. They had a gothic, severe aesthetic, and some of my favourite helmets ever sculpted by anyone anywhere.

See, in 2nd Edition? New armies were rare. Necrons followed after, but other than that? It’s basically Tyranids, which weren’t New new, but had a major refresh and that.

Then? For years, lip service (not that, dirty Dakkanaut) at best. Years. The only army done anywhere near as dirty would be Dark Eldar, who basically got two thirds of fifty percent of absolutely feth all until….when did I sort my life out? 2010/2011, having been introduced and promptly shoved down a Warhammer Giant’s undies since 1998.

Yeah I have to say for all the Gothic themes in the Imperium its really only the SOB army that REALLY brings the gothic to the table.

Space Marines are honestly actually on the bland side in terms of gothic designwork. The Imperial Guard are more Grim-Dark WW1 and the Mechanicus are more pisons and machines but get some gothic elements with the servo skulls and such.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
In a world where Adepta Sororitas plastic models exist (and Sisters of Silence could possibly be expanded as a faction), the need for "female Space Marines" and another "we are modern and progressive look at us" retcon (hello Adeptus Custodes), seems like a very politically oriented agenda to me, that is unnecessary to the settings, and also to the model range.

That said, given what we have seen in the videogame industry during the last 10years, and the Custodes precedent, it is only a matter of time i guess.

I have Sword Angels (Dark Angels and Blood Angels) for the bling, Ultramarines for the classical look, Space Wolves and a small force of Egyptian themed ‘loyalists’ because I love all those flavors. SOB only come in one flavor, one which pisses off my wife, which is extremely limiting. If they start selling Classical, werewolf and Egyptian flavor Sisters of Battle, maybe you’d have a point.

In the words of other posters, nothing stops you from cutomizing your SoB/SoS models however you see fit with third-party bits.

You could also retrofit Stormcast Eternals as space marines if you so wished.

Wanting "female Space Marines" officially recognized in the lore after 40 years of it not being the case, is a very strange obsession when other options are available.

Some people browbeat anyone who would go against that specific piece of lore.

And it’s a sizable enough population that people can really be made to feel unwelcome.

I only had to wait, what? 27 years for a Mechanicus army... or a viable Custodes force (still not there yet, as the good tanks and dreadnoughts are still FW resin).

Waiting a long time for something you want shouldn't be penalized or held against you.

You should reward people that have stuck around waiting for you to release what they've always wanted.

And please don't quote the lore as if it I'd written in stone. Even GW has said that the canon is mutable, and they've changed things all the time.

They could release a book tomorrow in which one of the many time travelers from the future (and this trope happens a lot) brings back female space Marines on board... people will grumble on the interwebs.

And we will go on playing, and waiting for more cool stuff... together.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See, in 2nd Edition? New armies were rare. Necrons followed after, but other than that? It’s basically Tyranids, which weren’t New new, but had a major refresh and that.

Then? For years, lip service (not that, dirty Dakkanaut) at best. Years. The only army done anywhere near as dirty would be Dark Eldar, who basically got two thirds of fifty percent of absolutely feth all until….when did I sort my life out? 2010/2011, having been introduced and promptly shoved down a Warhammer Giant’s undies since 1998.

Tau say hi.

Also obligatory "DE haven't meaningfully had anything in the intervening 13-14 years so no change there."

I think Sisters were hit especially hard because IIRC they had no plastic models at all. So they were very expensive to start. And then GW kind of abandoned them.

Anyway I think its highly likely GW will create female Space Marines at some point by 12th edition. I guess whether they go "yes, there were always female marines, just, uh, don't ask where they were in all the historic lore" is more open to question. Its hardly costing much to add a female head or two in each sprue. Pretty sure most people prefer all helmets anyway.
There will be much outcry and then the overwhelming majority of people who spend money on Games Workshop stuff will shrug and move on.

Tau were 3rd/4th Ed. And had five plastic kits out the gate. And have done pretty well every edition for new units

 Lathe Biosas wrote:


Waiting a long time for something you want shouldn't be penalized or held against you.

You should reward people that have stuck around waiting for you to release what they've always wanted.

There are people that are still waiting for updated aspect warriors, Eldar Corsairs, plastic armageddon steel warriors and other guard variants and Pariahs. And they've probably been waiting a lot longer than those who want female space marines.
Where's their reward? Why should they play second fiddle?
Games Workshop once again ignoring those in favor of yet more marines that not everyone even wants and seems to be a point of contention seems off to me.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:


And please don't quote the lore as if it I'd written in stone. Even GW has said that the canon is mutable, and they've changed things all the time.

Yeah, and it's crap. If they actually put some effort then it wouldn't be so bad, but they do it in such a half-arsed manner that it's mildly insulting to anyone who actually cares about narrative consistency and world-building.
Imagine if the first two Lord of the Rings books started off normally, and then suddenly in book 3 Sauron himself showed up in an Eva unit and Tolkein was like "nah bro, there have always been Eva units in the setting, they were just invisible".
That's basically what GW does, and its dumb.

Updated Aspect Warriors? The units that have, barring Warp Spiders, had multiple incarnations, and now we get them all in plastic early next year?

Eldar Corsairs? You mean the short lived Forgeworld variant list, which was never a “full Codex? Or do you mean these lads and lasses?

Guard variants? There’s Krieg just around the corner. Problem there is GW added too many, too fast. But the vast majority of the Guard is now 100% plastic.

Pariahs? They seem to be gone my dude. And it’s not as if we didn’t get rough equivalence in Lychguard and Praetorians. Plus remember, Pariahs stuck out in their army. No Ressurrection. No teleportation. No transport.

And time for the big question again. In a world where Female Astartes become a thing? What exactly does anyone lose?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Updated Aspect Warriors? The units that have, barring Warp Spiders, had multiple incarnations, and now we get them all in plastic early next year?

Eldar Corsairs? You mean the short lived Forgeworld variant list, which was never a “full Codex? Or do you mean these lads and lasses?

Guard variants? There’s Krieg just around the corner. Problem there is GW added too many, too fast. But the vast majority of the Guard is now 100% plastic.

Pariahs? They seem to be gone my dude. And it’s not as if we didn’t get rough equivalence in Lychguard and Praetorians. Plus remember, Pariahs stuck out in their army. No Ressurrection. No teleportation. No transport.

Even Vostroyans and Steel Legion? Pretty sure those aren't plastic, so no, its not 100%.

Per the corsairs...I might have done goofed. When I wrote that I was thinking of the guys with dinosaurs, which I thought were they but apparently its the Exodites that get those, which I'm pretty sure never had any sort of release. Given that the likes of Custodes and Sisters of Silence have a codex though, Corsairs might as well have one too.

Just as Sisters of Battle are not Space Marines, as seems to be the mantra, Lychguard are not Pariahs. I've been wanting those for a very long time, "my dude", so where's my "reward"?

No one in the Necron army had transport (no, teleportation via monoliths doesn't count as transport, it was just glorified deep strike), and whilst they didn't have WBB they didn't contribute to Phase Out either, so it sort of balances out. Not that Phase Out was a good rule anyway. Perhaps it was needed in 3rd ed, but it didn't seem to age well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


And time for the big question again. In a world where Female Astartes become a thing? What exactly does anyone lose?

From what I've read what other marine players think, army identity apparently. Similar to have having male Sisters of Battle. And no, clergy don't count, they aren't Sisters of Battle, just as an servitor in a space marine army doesn't count as a space marine.
Also time and resources spent on yet more marine bits that could have been used for literally anything else.

Operative word re Guard was majority.

The rest is just arguing semantics. I wouldn’t say no to Pariahs returning meself, as I like their concept. But to pretend they’re just gone, with no direct equivalent replacement isn’t arguing in good faith.

As for the question I posed, and your response? What part of the Marines would be lost by such an occurrence?

It is the monastic lifestyle? The horrific alteration process by which mankind’s most powerful defenders are no longer really human in body, spirit or experience? Is it their preference for jumping straight on the enemy command and ripping it out root and stem, making life an awful lot easier for the other Imperial forces? Is it their signature arms and armour?

Or is it in fact….none of the above?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


It is the monastic lifestyle? The horrific alteration process by which mankind’s most powerful defenders are no longer really human in body, spirit or experience? Is it their preference for jumping straight on the enemy command and ripping it out root and stem, making life an awful lot easier for the other Imperial forces? Is it their signature arms and armour?

Or is it in fact….none of the above?

I mean, there's the whole thing about battle-brothers and the fact that one of the chapters is called Sons of the Emperor and the idea that they are supposed to be over blown pastiches of hyper aggressive macho-men action heroes too. So yeah, that might get lost.
If it doesn't look like a male Rob Liefield character, its probably not a space marine


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


The rest is just arguing semantics. I wouldn’t say no to Pariahs returning meself, as I like their concept. But to pretend they’re just gone, with no direct equivalent replacement isn’t arguing in good faith.

They don't have a direct replacement. Lychguard are NOT pariahs. Pariahs are dedicated anti-psyker units armed with unique warscythes that have built in blasters with special rules that separate them from your typical necron, to give the idea that they are something unique, something "advanced". They even had a rule that limits how many you can have in an army to highlight just how experimental and new they were.
Lychguard are elite melee infantry that are just glorified immortals who chop instead of shoot.
Saying that they are the same because they both have warscythes completely misses the point. They are not equivalent at all.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:


And please don't quote the lore as if it I'd written in stone. Even GW has said that the canon is mutable, and they've changed things all the time.

Yeah, and it's crap. If they actually put some effort then it wouldn't be so bad, but they do it in such a half-arsed manner that it's mildly insulting to anyone who actually cares about narrative consistency and world-building.
Imagine if the first two Lord of the Rings books started off normally, and then suddenly in book 3 Sauron himself showed up in an Eva unit and Tolkein was like "nah bro, there have always been Eva units in the setting, they were just invisible".
That's basically what GW does, and its dumb.

You can’t compare a literary work, where consistency is crucial to the story, with a tabletop game where the lore is there solely to embellish the matches. The problem is that it’s gotten out of hand, and they’ve started publishing books with overly significant stories when it would have been better to release side stories without any major arcs. The lore should be a framework for each person to create their own stories, not a script to follow.