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Got an email from Shapeways this morning.

https://www.shapeways.com/model/material-configurator/upload

I am delighted to announce that Shapeways is coming home.


Two original co-founders along with the highly-skilled leadership team from our Eindhoven factory have stepped in to steward the company into its next chapter. After Shapeways Inc. filed for bankruptcy in July, we knew we had to resurrect the company and preserve the digital manufacturing engine we all helped to build - a combination of dedicated, skilled people, cutting-edge machinery and sophisticated software. Moving forward, our focus is on rebuilding Shapeways and leveraging our digital manufacturing engine for our customers’ success.

We regret to inform you that our marketplace cannot be revived as it previously existed, as all marketplace accounts and accompanying data were deleted in the bankruptcy. We still believe in the Shapeways Shops concept and are actively pursuing new ways to replace this service for the Shapeways community. This exploration will take time and we ask for your patience on this journey. We hope to find a solution that allows you to access a similarly eclectic array of unique objects as you came to expect from the Shapeways marketplace. Stay tuned for details.


If you are a creator yourself you can upload and order your models here - we’d love to have you back.


In the meantime, you can learn more about the new Shapeways in our press release, here. We have compiled a FAQ around the bankruptcy and loss of the marketplace here. And you can learn a bit more about me, the new leadership team, and our vision for Shapeways here.


Warmly,


Marleen Vogelaar, CEO

Website is back up, looks like they're currently only Print on Demand until creators start uploading again.

Pretty much all Shapeways had going for them was that they had run long enough they had some nice archive stuff that the creators hadn't bothered uploading anywhere else.

Now that's going they are going to have to have a quantum leap in user experience, shipping and pricing to keep up with other entrants.

So we're all assed out of the money owed from our last month sales before the shutdown, but they'd like us to trust them and come back to do it all over again from scratch.

I echo those sentiments.

I kinda feel "fool me once, shame on you..." here. When they launched originally, home/community 3d printing was a lot rarer than it is now. I'm not sure it's got the market it had anymore. Plus, with the loss of all their old assets and having to build back from scratch, I don't know how many folks are going to upload there versus just doing MMF or Cults or whatever (which, yes, that's digital only and doesn't generally have a print service, but there are a lot more of those out there in the wild now).

The biggest thing that got me to stop ordering anything from them (and that was generally only a couple small things from a couple companies that did NOT sell the STLs, only had a Shapeways shop) was that the quality level of the prints was garbage compared to what I can do at home now, and stupidly high for said quality. Unless that changes massively from where they were, I don't foresee this being a "game changer."

 Valander wrote:
I kinda feel "fool me once, shame on you..." here. When they launched originally, home/community 3d printing was a lot rarer than it is now. I'm not sure it's got the market it had anymore. Plus, with the loss of all their old assets and having to build back from scratch, I don't know how many folks are going to upload there versus just doing MMF or Cults or whatever (which, yes, that's digital only and doesn't generally have a print service, but there are a lot more of those out there in the wild now).

The biggest thing that got me to stop ordering anything from them (and that was generally only a couple small things from a couple companies that did NOT sell the STLs, only had a Shapeways shop) was that the quality level of the prints was garbage compared to what I can do at home now, and stupidly high for said quality. Unless that changes massively from where they were, I don't foresee this being a "game changer."

Agreed. Maybe they should just use their machines to cooperate with some of MMFs (or others') printing services.

Content Missing? Fear not you Digital modelling print guys, once a certain Artificial digital interface gets more robust and kicks in, you will have millions of digital content in no time at all. You asked for this right?

Just seen literally this advert for AI modelling on Facebook. Not going to say what company because I despise this.

"What if you could skip the boring parts of 3D modeling?
Generate custom models with AI, export directly to Blender, and focus on what you do best. Your time is too valuable to waste on basic modeling"

I predicted this would happen to all digital content the moment many turned their backs to traditional companies and production models...
Many were on board to 3d Sculpting being totally out of bounds for pretty much any kind of regulation, so there you go.
Have fun this is just the beginning.

Can't say I'm excited or anything...

I'm just a consumer. I have zero skill in modeling/printing myelf, but these guys used to be the king of the hill...

Now... not so much.

 NAVARRO wrote:

I predicted this would happen to all digital content the moment many turned their backs to traditional companies and production models...
Many were on board to 3d Sculpting being totally out of bounds for pretty much any kind of regulation, so there you go.
Have fun this is just the beginning.

I really don't have any idea what the feth you are trying to say here. 3d sculpting is a tool. That's it. Christ this is a stupid hang up that gets really tiresome.

AI is going to hurt all kinds of artists, and you seem like you are tap dancing on a grave here. Ghoulish and gakky.

 Taarnak wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

I predicted this would happen to all digital content the moment many turned their backs to traditional companies and production models...
Many were on board to 3d Sculpting being totally out of bounds for pretty much any kind of regulation, so there you go.
Have fun this is just the beginning.

I really don't have any idea what the feth you are trying to say here. 3d sculpting is a tool. That's it. Christ this is a stupid hang up that gets really tiresome.

AI is going to hurt all kinds of artists, and you seem like you are tap dancing on a grave here. Ghoulish and gakky.

You seem confused. Its not the tools, its what people do with them and many of you seem perfectly fine with that... For some extremely bizarre reason most found totally acceptable 3D using other companies content and IP, ripping of other sculptors ( both traditional and 3d) work and selling as their own in an unprecedented volume. Also driving the miniature prices to new lows...
Never seen nothing quite like it... so excuse me if I find that now AI is horribly finding new lows and Im totally sure many "artists" will adopt it and people will buy it.

Its a race to the worst possible outcome and the consumers are loving it.

Not happy or dancing at all I keep saying the same thing over and over again... Unregulated activities should not be allowed to continue trading side by side with honest business. The results are here.

 NAVARRO wrote:
For some extremely bizarre reason most found totally acceptable 3D using other companies content and IP, ripping of other sculptors ( both traditional and 3d) work and selling as their own in an unprecedented volume.

Well, the unprecedented volume is right, but IP theft was always a staple of garage sculptors like Hasslefree, Heresy, etc.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For some extremely bizarre reason most found totally acceptable 3D using other companies content and IP, ripping of other sculptors ( both traditional and 3d) work and selling as their own in an unprecedented volume.

Well, the unprecedented volume is right, but IP theft was always a staple of garage sculptors like Hasslefree, Heresy, etc.

Sure that's like saying a snowflake is the same as an avalanche.

Today many find that acceptable just because its a 3D digital STL like its somewhat a magic thing totally deprived of any regulation... now we have exact copies of models clearly not licensed you can even have full armies etc..so yeah big freaking diference.

Were you ever in Metallica? Just wondering.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Were you ever in Metallica? Just wondering.

Cute, seems like your the problem then. I would love that your boss would change your contract and said Dear Mr. Lord_blackfang from today you will be required to work for us for free.

This conversation is going completely outside of the shapeways reopening, but IP theft was a thing even with "traditional methods", after all recasters were a thing and if I recall some people actually sought them out due to being cheaper and looking like FW models.

On topic though, since the company was selling rather expensive stuff and went under due to not being competitive I think it makes no sense to continue to use the same business model, even under new management (which is not really the case since it is part of the initial management back).

It's a good business if the costs are right. Shapeways allowed printing access to people who couldn't/wouldn't do it themselves, along with a ton of more exotic materials that there's no consumer-level access to. The discussion here focuses on miniatures and such, but SW was the go-to place for a lot of other applications that there's not yet a replacement for.

Reading around their FAQ and such it sounds like this is basically a case of them getting the brand name and website for Shapeways and just one of the original factories (which interestingly they note as one of the profitable factories; suggesting others were not, which fits with the eventual Bankruptcy).


I'm wondering what they'll actually do (besides ceo marketing speak) to make them stand out against other factories and 3d printing services that have risen up over the last few years. Granted they've a head start with experience and a functional factory setup; but I'm not sure if the Shapeways brand is the best to relaunch with considering how it likely left many customers and creators without anything after closing down.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Were you ever in Metallica? Just wondering.

Cute, seems like your the problem then. I would love that your boss would change your contract and said Dear Mr. Lord_blackfang from today you will be required to work for us for free.

Didn't you sell Ymgarl genestealer heads at some point
By your own bizarre analogy you forced someone at GW to work for free.

 GreenScorpion wrote:
This conversation is going completely outside of the shapeways reopening, but IP theft was a thing even with "traditional methods", after all recasters were a thing and if I recall some people actually sought them out due to being cheaper and looking like FW models.

On topic though, since the company was selling rather expensive stuff and went under due to not being competitive I think it makes no sense to continue to use the same business model, even under new management (which is not really the case since it is part of the initial management back).

Recasters were a thing for sure but they were a few in between companies mostly in a foreign country with unenforceable laws etc and most of the times singled out and shamed by the community. Today the difference is considerable since its a vast number of them, done everywhere including Europe, UK, US etc its not recasting its a digital copy or scan distributed digitally.
The fact that its digital makes it far easier to distribute, copy etc and because the community itself does not single them out like they did in past with recasters its all "acceptable" practice. Apparently.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 GreenScorpion wrote:
This conversation is going completely outside of the shapeways reopening, but IP theft was a thing even with "traditional methods", after all recasters were a thing and if I recall some people actually sought them out due to being cheaper and looking like FW models.

On topic though, since the company was selling rather expensive stuff and went under due to not being competitive I think it makes no sense to continue to use the same business model, even under new management (which is not really the case since it is part of the initial management back).

Recasters were a thing for sure but they were a few in between companies mostly in a foreign country with unenforceable laws etc and most of the times singled out and shamed by the community. Today the difference is considerable since its a vast number of them, done everywhere including Europe, UK, US etc its not recasting its a digital copy or scan distributed digitally.
The fact that its digital makes it far easier to distribute, copy etc and because the community itself does not single them out like they did in past with recasters its all "acceptable" practice. Apparently.

Dog, nobody cares.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Were you ever in Metallica? Just wondering.

Cute, seems like your the problem then. I would love that your boss would change your contract and said Dear Mr. Lord_blackfang from today you will be required to work for us for free.

Didn't you sell Ymgarl genestealer heads at some point
By your own bizarre analogy you forced someone at GW to work for free.

So dodging the arguments then? Nothing to bring to the table?
Just for your gaslighting exercise buddy. I dont sell, produce or distribute anything, ever. I was commissioned to sculpt those pincer heads with claws instead of tentacles for mouths before there was even official Genestealers with tentacled mouths, those came later on. And whats even funnier neither my Pincer or later on the GW tentacled mouths matched what was the Ymgarl concept art.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 GreenScorpion wrote:
This conversation is going completely outside of the shapeways reopening, but IP theft was a thing even with "traditional methods", after all recasters were a thing and if I recall some people actually sought them out due to being cheaper and looking like FW models.

On topic though, since the company was selling rather expensive stuff and went under due to not being competitive I think it makes no sense to continue to use the same business model, even under new management (which is not really the case since it is part of the initial management back).

Recasters were a thing for sure but they were a few in between companies mostly in a foreign country with unenforceable laws etc and most of the times singled out and shamed by the community. Today the difference is considerable since its a vast number of them, done everywhere including Europe, UK, US etc its not recasting its a digital copy or scan distributed digitally.
The fact that its digital makes it far easier to distribute, copy etc and because the community itself does not single them out like they did in past with recasters its all "acceptable" practice. Apparently.

Dog, nobody cares.

Speak for yourself, and yeah many don't thats the point Im making... but I don't believe that, like you say everyone is ok with theft. UK is actually trying to regulate Ai... but yeah greedy corps and individuals are in for the easy money and could care less about the legality of using someone else assets.
So like I said soon you will have another flood of digital content even cheaper and done by AI... Any print Farm will be packed with that sort of content so you should be very very happy.

 NAVARRO wrote:

So dodging the arguments then? Nothing to bring to the table?

You don't have arguments, just the luddite rage of an old man who feels he was made obsolete by something he doesn't understand?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

So dodging the arguments then? Nothing to bring to the table?

You don't have arguments, just the luddite rage of an old man who feels he was made obsolete by something he doesn't understand?

Try to read next time and use some thought then, not sure you can.

@NAVARRO What I get from your posts is that you believe the marketing that says "AI" is a miraculous tool that does everything you want.
I work mostly in Software so I can give you an example of why that is not the case.
Code generators have been around for decades now, especially in sectors where code needs to be certified, as the generators help standardize the output code to a certain level of quality. Code generators have never replaced actual humans being required, just different roles are available and you still need people who know how to code as the standard output of good code generators can still be wrong (for a variety of technical reasons).
Most AI algorithms pretty much regurgitate results based on inputs they have received over time (they are essentially tools that analyse big chunks of data over time and use tendencies to provide a somewhat predictable output).
While I am far from being a great programmer, most AI tools my colleagues were experimenting with this year (authorized by the company) provided at best code that was roughly as good as mine. Most times it was worse or had lots of extra stuff that was unnecessary.

With art the process is mostly the same, yes you have tools that can generate something based on tendencies they have seen online or through some other inputs, but the correction of issues and other things on the output file is going to require a 3d designer to fix, not someone without that kind of skills.
The designer might stop having issues with setting up a basic humanoid model, but for most established designers that is what they do by reusing their own models already so not much will change.

 GreenScorpion wrote:
@NAVARRO What I get from your posts is that you believe the marketing that says "AI" is a miraculous tool that does everything you want.
I work mostly in Software so I can give you an example of why that is not the case.
Code generators have been around for decades now, especially in sectors where code needs to be certified, as the generators help standardize the output code to a certain level of quality. Code generators have never replaced actual humans being required, just different roles are available and you still need people who know how to code as the standard output of good code generators can still be wrong (for a variety of technical reasons).
Most AI algorithms pretty much regurgitate results based on inputs they have received over time (they are essentially tools that analyse big chunks of data over time and use tendencies to provide a somewhat predictable output).
While I am far from being a great programmer, most AI tools my colleagues were experimenting with this year (authorized by the company) provided at best code that was roughly as good as mine. Most times it was worse or had lots of extra stuff that was unnecessary.

With art the process is mostly the same, yes you have tools that can generate something based on tendencies they have seen online or through some other inputs, but the correction of issues and other things on the output file is going to require a 3d designer to fix, not someone without that kind of skills.
The designer might stop having issues with setting up a basic humanoid model, but for most established designers that is what they do by reusing their own models already so not much will change.

Firstly thank you for a good and structured reply, sometimes is increasingly difficult to discuss anything.

I have been following AI closely from a professional Art Production point of view... (disclaimer, sculpting both digital or traditionally is not my professional activity and its simply a fun hobby so AI digital sculpting specifically is something I have not looked too much into yet, but I speculate it will follow the current online harvesting that the non 3d art is struggling with.)
AI engines have been harvesting content totally unchecked before most of us were even aware it was a thing. On the internet and social media theres almost infinite numbers of digital art which was and still is been taken without consent. There are plenty of issues been raised today regarding that and UK is trying to regulate it.
We are dealing with AI initial software versions but each new version they are getting better. Prestigious photography competitions has been won by AI for example.
Yes they are still not there but some companies have trialed " AI replacing designers and artists". AI is still one trick pony and very limited if you need to amend something to the initial artwork. So trials still not satisfactory. You need artists to amend them.
The industry already embraced it though, Adobe has it incorporated, Photoshop/Illustrator will have that even more embedded and the popular AI generators are gaining immense ground since the current companies and copyright etc laws are slow at adjusting. It's a free for all.

What does this have to do with Shapeways you may ask.
I think it's clear that since 3D digital sculpting erupted to the miniature industry it became considerably easier to share a file, and so was stealing it and selling it again. Thats common sense but what I was not expecting was that the skewed ratio of dubious behaviours was so widely accepted by 3d Print,users etc. It's actually OK to brag about Printer goes brrrrrr a new army of space marines.
Once I read here concerns about Shapeways recent past behaviour and currently having no Artist content and that it will be difficult to build up the catalogue again, I can be cynical about it and cheer for a future of NO actual artists with AI doing the heavy lifting.

What is the problem of having no artist direct input if you will have a robust software that collected all the art libraries and regurgitates it? It's an open question. But I find almost no difference from an individual stealing a 3D asset or IP from an actual artist or company and sell it as their own for quick money.

Do I like it? No. This will make incredibly hard if not impossible in the future for a good 3D artist to sculpt something and profit from his work in this or any industry.

AI is going to struggle to replace traditional 3d sculpting in the short term future, whatever a conman shilling ads on facebook says. For a few reasons, any of which is enough to scupper the concept.



1) AI works on the process of pattern recognition, that is to say, it needs a sufficiently large database to draw upon with accurate tags/descriptions attached to each item. But no such 3D database currently exists for easy scraping. You can't just set a program running on google images or whatever. Video game 3d models aren't good enough either - they rely on image textures for detail (ruling out sites like cgtrader which specialise in selling those assets). There's only two companies out there with a file database even remotely big enough to even try, and that's Cults3D and MMF. Neither of those sites has permission in the user terms to sell/utilise existing uploaded files for AI generative/training purposes. So most of the content is locked behind a paywall where it can't be scraped, and the hosting companies have no legal right to sell the data.

2) 3d files are way, waaaay bigger than your average .png or .jpg. Your average AI machine already is a hungry monster, devouring vast amounts of electricity for text and image based output. When each item it has to process and learn from goes from, say, 1MB (aka an image file) to something more akin to 20MB for the most efficient/decimated model right up to several hundred megabytes for the worst? It's intensely more demanding in terms of resources, and companies are already struggling with the lower rate.

3) 3D filesets for tabletop are usually sold as kits, like traditional models. You can download a dragon kit for your AI to mull over, but it has no idea how it fits together in order to process it. It can't discern between the pin for the leg to body, the five different heads, or the scenic base. Most makers don't label fileparts in detail - heck, sometimes you're lucky if you don't have to open every bloody file to find out what they are! This slows and makes it even more difficult for the AI to learn - even if it gets access to a large enough dataset. It'll be reading a leg as 'part26x' of 'dragon', which is a fat lot of good for generative purposes.

4) Copyright is a massive ballache for the AI company in 3D in a way it isn't for 2D. When dealing with images, there's always countless fanarts that get around copyright using fair use providing easily accessible data to mine. But there's more than a few companies out there which fiercely guard IP for 3d printed stuff, GW included. Not only does that reduce the sample size to be learned from, it also means vast amounts of stuff online is deliberately mislabelled. When half the Adeptus Custodes files out there are labelled as 'Banana Guardian' or something, it means that AI will never learn to apply them to the right concept of 'Custodes'. This further skews/diminishes the pool of useful content.

5) Following on from the individual components point, making a 3D model kit isn't just about making the model - it's about designing it for printability. Where do you make the cuts and how? How do the components fit together? Your AI needs to understand 3D printing and supporting better than your average 3D sculptor (or even printer) does right now.

The only way to circumvent this right now is to try and develop an AI that can generate 3D files out of 2D images. Which isn't impossible, some minor progress has been made in that direction already, and that's probably what the ads are drawing upon. But.....don't expect detailed printable models out of that. 3D space is much more complex than 2D. Those programs are aimed at creating animated videos, not stuff you can physically make and hold.



tl;dr, I don't see AI taking the work of 3D artists for a good 5-10 years at least. If ever. You need a very specific set of circumstances to arise (more powerful computers, a company with the right to sell the data, a large enough pool of well labelled work, and a much more discerning AI program than currently exists). It's not impossible, but it's certainly not imminent.

What does any of that have to do with Shapeways restarting their model marketplace??

Nowadays, the average 3D print seller on Etsy can print at Shapeways quality for a fraction of the price.

 Ketara wrote:
half the Adeptus Custodes files out there are labelled as 'Banana Guardian'

Thank you you've just turned my perception of legally distinct names from annoying to delightful.