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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
He actually dies to one in the prologue mission, and background Marines get killed by gaunts, rippers, warriors, lictors and an entire squad gets wiped out by a Neurothrope.

Even a random Chaos cultist manages to kill a Space Marine with suicide demo charge.

That's awesome. It'd be cool if a certain type of fan remembered that those things happened though.

Nothing like that happens. Ever.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
He actually dies to one in the prologue mission, and background Marines get killed by gaunts, rippers, warriors, lictors and an entire squad gets wiped out by a Neurothrope.

Even a random Chaos cultist manages to kill a Space Marine with suicide demo charge.

That's awesome. It'd be cool if a certain type of fan remembered that those things happened though.

To be honest it is absurd people want to use Titus as an example of an "average Marine".

We are talking about a guy that personally kills dozens of Chaos Space Marines in the first game, kills a Daemon Prince with his bare hands and kills who knows how many Thousand Sonds Rubrics, Scarab Occult Terminators and even Hellbrutes in the second game.

It is pretty damn evident he is exceptional for Space Marines standards, because he kills many many Space Marines.

You're right, it definitely should be evident. . .

Or people could also take into account that it's very, very possible to see him get killed while playing the game too. I imagine the no-death playthrough is pretty uncommon. That at the very least should make it clear just how deadly opposition forces can be too.

You know... my Gorgutz killed MANY Space Marines in my DOW 1 campaign, it's a wonder there were enpugh Blood Ravens left to help in the Space Marine 1 finale.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
You know... my Gorgutz killed MANY Space Marines in my DOW 1 campaign, it's a wonder there were enpugh Blood Ravens left to help in the Space Marine 1 finale.

No no no. See, the game events only count if it's pro Space Marine. Duh!

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
You know... my Gorgutz killed MANY Space Marines in my DOW 1 campaign, it's a wonder there were enpugh Blood Ravens left to help in the Space Marine 1 finale.

Ah, but that was before they were led by a master tactician like Boreale.

How well do you think Gorgutz would fair against operation Steehl Reehn, wherein SPESS MAHRENS Space Marines launch muhltiple, simuln-tehneous and devashtehting defensive deep strikes?

 Tyran wrote:
He actually dies to one in the prologue mission, and background Marines get killed by gaunts, rippers, warriors, lictors and an entire squad gets wiped out by a Neurothrope.

Even a random Chaos cultist manages to kill a Space Marine with suicide demo charge.

The 'death' at the beginning of the game is classic narrative troping and has 0 effect. It's there for aesthetic. Death means death, not levelling up to your final form...

Which as Orkeosaurus points out, is a given for protagonists. They never die unless the story wants them to. His side kicks are also virtually indestructible as well, which is a common BL trope, there's the protagonist and their immediate squad that gets a 2+ aura save from being in proximity to him. Space Marine follows the Uriel Ventris playbook pretty closely.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
You know... my Gorgutz killed MANY Space Marines in my DOW 1 campaign, it's a wonder there were enpugh Blood Ravens left to help in the Space Marine 1 finale.

There is also the Shootas, Blood and Teef game in which the Ork protagonist kills what seems an entire Marine company and an Imperial knight.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
He actually dies to one in the prologue mission, and background Marines get killed by gaunts, rippers, warriors, lictors and an entire squad gets wiped out by a Neurothrope.

Even a random Chaos cultist manages to kill a Space Marine with suicide demo charge.

The 'death' at the beginning of the game is classic narrative troping and has 0 effect. It's there for aesthetic. Death means death, not levelling up to your final form...

Which as Orkeosaurus points out, is a given for protagonists. They never die unless the story wants them to. His side kicks are also virtually indestructible as well, which is a common BL trope, there's the protagonist and their immediate squad that gets a 2+ aura save from being in proximity to him. Space Marine follows the Uriel Ventris playbook pretty closely.

There's a very real reason anything Warhammer is self-published by Black Library. None of it...none...would ever be picked up by a major publishing house looking to make actual money.

GW uses BL as a marketing tool, and if it happens to turn a profit, that's brilliant in their eyes. If it doesn't, it nothing but a loss-leader, and a cost of doing business.

In Fire Warrior you get to dunk on about a demi company worth of Raptors, including the Captain.

Shootas Blood and Teef is proof that Orks are canonically much more powerful than an Imperial Knight and they should FINALLY be statted appropriately.

 Kagetora wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
He actually dies to one in the prologue mission, and background Marines get killed by gaunts, rippers, warriors, lictors and an entire squad gets wiped out by a Neurothrope.

Even a random Chaos cultist manages to kill a Space Marine with suicide demo charge.

The 'death' at the beginning of the game is classic narrative troping and has 0 effect. It's there for aesthetic. Death means death, not levelling up to your final form...

Which as Orkeosaurus points out, is a given for protagonists. They never die unless the story wants them to. His side kicks are also virtually indestructible as well, which is a common BL trope, there's the protagonist and their immediate squad that gets a 2+ aura save from being in proximity to him. Space Marine follows the Uriel Ventris playbook pretty closely.

There's a very real reason anything Warhammer is self-published by Black Library. None of it...none...would ever be picked up by a major publishing house looking to make actual money.

GW uses BL as a marketing tool, and if it happens to turn a profit, that's brilliant in their eyes. If it doesn't, it nothing but a loss-leader, and a cost of doing business.

Except for Marvel Comics (a Subsidiary of Disney) published a number of Warhammer 40k comics.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
You know... my Gorgutz killed MANY Space Marines in my DOW 1 campaign, it's a wonder there were enpugh Blood Ravens left to help in the Space Marine 1 finale.

The Imperial Guard also lost 100 baneblades in that campaign, but fortunately they can build a new one every 5 minutes.

Early in this thread someone commented that Marines' 'super-solider' status was just meant to put them on an even fitting with the Xenos. As a player from back than, I agree that felt like the original intent.

However, from talking to marine players in my area, many seem to think that to match the current 'lore' Marines should have Custodes level stats!

 Souleater wrote:
Early in this thread someone commented that Marines' 'super-solider' status was just meant to put them on an even fitting with the Xenos. As a player from back than, I agree that felt like the original intent.

However, from talking to marine players in my area, many seem to think that to match the current 'lore' Marines should have Custodes level stats!

And I think standard Custodes should have the strength, Toughness and Wounds of Armiger
Warglaive Knights.

Trajann Valorian on the other hand... easily Knight Gallant level stats... but with more attacks... and better saves...

 Kagetora wrote:


There's a very real reason anything Warhammer is self-published by Black Library. None of it...none...would ever be picked up by a major publishing house looking to make actual money.

Clearly you've never read a Halo novel, about 1/2 of all the Star Wars & Star Trek stuff, alot of Battletech, etc.
And I'm going to go out on a limb here & bet the quality of a great many things in the Romance section are of questionable quality as well.
There's a vast array of drek published by non-GW companies.
Quality is not much of a concern.

I can only assume that GW wanted more $ than these other publishers were willing to part with.

ccs wrote:

 Kagetora wrote:


There's a very real reason anything Warhammer is self-published by Black Library. None of it...none...would ever be picked up by a major publishing house looking to make actual money.

Clearly you've never read a Halo novel, about 1/2 of all the Star Wars & Star Trek stuff, alot of Battletech, etc.
And I'm going to go out on a limb here & bet the quality of a great many things in the Romance section are of questionable quality as well.
There's a vast array of drek published by non-GW companies.
Quality is not much of a concern.

I can only assume that GW wanted more $ than these other publishers were willing to part with.

Fair enough. You're correct that I haven't read any of that drek. I was mostly thinking of TOR, Penguin, and the other "old school" publishing houses. They tend to be "gate keepers," but OTOH, they also don't accept fanfic garbage like the GW self-published dumpster-fare.

 Kagetora wrote:

Fair enough. You're correct that I haven't read any of that drek. I was mostly thinking of TOR, Penguin, and the other "old school" publishing houses. They tend to be "gate keepers," but OTOH, they also don't accept fanfic garbage like the GW self-published dumpster-fare.

Having a bit of a collection of 70s/80s sci-fi/fantasy paperbacks from 'proper' publishers, erm... I got news for you

 Kagetora wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kagetora wrote:


There's a very real reason anything Warhammer is self-published by Black Library. None of it...none...would ever be picked up by a major publishing house looking to make actual money.

Clearly you've never read a Halo novel, about 1/2 of all the Star Wars & Star Trek stuff, alot of Battletech, etc.
And I'm going to go out on a limb here & bet the quality of a great many things in the Romance section are of questionable quality as well.
There's a vast array of drek published by non-GW companies.
Quality is not much of a concern.

I can only assume that GW wanted more $ than these other publishers were willing to part with.

Fair enough. You're correct that I haven't read any of that drek. I was mostly thinking of TOR, Penguin, and the other "old school" publishing houses. They tend to be "gate keepers," but OTOH, they also don't accept fanfic garbage like the GW self-published dumpster-fare.

I assure you that they publish crap every bit as bad as the BL. It just doesn't feature Space Marines (tm)

 Kagetora wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kagetora wrote:


There's a very real reason anything Warhammer is self-published by Black Library. None of it...none...would ever be picked up by a major publishing house looking to make actual money.

Clearly you've never read a Halo novel, about 1/2 of all the Star Wars & Star Trek stuff, alot of Battletech, etc.
And I'm going to go out on a limb here & bet the quality of a great many things in the Romance section are of questionable quality as well.
There's a vast array of drek published by non-GW companies.
Quality is not much of a concern.

I can only assume that GW wanted more $ than these other publishers were willing to part with.

Fair enough. You're correct that I haven't read any of that drek. I was mostly thinking of TOR, Penguin, and the other "old school" publishing houses. They tend to be "gate keepers," but OTOH, they also don't accept fanfic garbage like the GW self-published dumpster-fare.

Twilight.

Fifty Shades.

I rest my case.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Kagetora wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kagetora wrote:


There's a very real reason anything Warhammer is self-published by Black Library. None of it...none...would ever be picked up by a major publishing house looking to make actual money.

Clearly you've never read a Halo novel, about 1/2 of all the Star Wars & Star Trek stuff, alot of Battletech, etc.
And I'm going to go out on a limb here & bet the quality of a great many things in the Romance section are of questionable quality as well.
There's a vast array of drek published by non-GW companies.
Quality is not much of a concern.

I can only assume that GW wanted more $ than these other publishers were willing to part with.

Fair enough. You're correct that I haven't read any of that drek. I was mostly thinking of TOR, Penguin, and the other "old school" publishing houses. They tend to be "gate keepers," but OTOH, they also don't accept fanfic garbage like the GW self-published dumpster-fare.

Twilight.

Fifty Shades.

I rest my case.

You missed Brandon Sanderson's Elantris

Good examples.

I'd counter that some of those book series (Twilight, Fifty Shades) made a literal fortune though. I doubt they'd make nearly as much on Space Marines stories.

Making money =/= automatically mean quality.

See: Harry Potter

 Dysartes wrote:
Making money =/= automatically mean quality.

See: Harry Potter

Transformers movies.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Making money =/= automatically mean quality.

See: Harry Potter

Transformers movies.

I don't think comparing summer blockbusters, which are purposely made to reach the largest audiences (and the audiences like big, dumb, films, traditionally - ie. Independence Day, 2012, Avatar, Transformers, etc.) and novels that were never written to be blockbusters.

 Quixote wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Making money =/= automatically mean quality.

See: Harry Potter

Transformers movies.

I don't think comparing summer blockbusters, which are purposely made to reach the largest audiences (and the audiences like big, dumb, films, traditionally - ie. Independence Day, 2012, Avatar, Transformers, etc.) and novels that were never written to be blockbusters.

There are literal mountains of "trashy novels" designed "for the masses".
Even more if you include those fad biographies of celebrities.

Not everything put to paper is some kind of holy document, even if society tends to earmark reading as a higher level of skill/activity than TV viewing. Heck there's more individual skills and whole teams of people that goes into the production of a film than into the production of the average book - which is typically the work of just one person. A film has so many different skillsets and big films take years to produce.

 Overread wrote:

 Quixote wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Making money =/= automatically mean quality.

See: Harry Potter

Transformers movies.

I don't think comparing summer blockbusters, which are purposely made to reach the largest audiences (and the audiences like big, dumb, films, traditionally - ie. Independence Day, 2012, Avatar, Transformers, etc.) and novels that were never written to be blockbusters.

There are literal mountains of "trashy novels" designed "for the masses".
Even more if you include those fad biographies of celebrities.

Not everything put to paper is some kind of holy document, even if society tends to earmark reading as a higher level of skill/activity than TV viewing. Heck there's more individual skills and whole teams of people that goes into the production of a film than into the production of the average book - which is typically the work of just one person. A film has so many different skillsets and big films take years to produce.

A book is never the work of just one person. With editors, agents, reader groups, publicists, heck, I could go on - but from personal experience the production of a single novella for an omnibus was the work of at least 25 people.

 Quixote wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Making money =/= automatically mean quality.

See: Harry Potter

Transformers movies.

I don't think comparing summer blockbusters, which are purposely made to reach the largest audiences (and the audiences like big, dumb, films, traditionally - ie. Independence Day, 2012, Avatar, Transformers, etc.) and novels that were never written to be blockbusters.

I think if we're comparing both to the "blockbuster" game of 40k, it's relevant enough. The point is that "quality" isn't so directly tied to profit.

40k has gotten bigger. But it's also gotten dumber. The publisher of 40k will obviously happily make that trade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quixote wrote:

A book is never the work of just one person. With editors, agents, reader groups, publicists, heck, I could go on - but from personal experience the production of a single novella for an omnibus was the work of at least 25 people.

I guess I don't know what those 25 people did, but there's still typically one author which is resposible for the creative voice. An author can write a book without an editor. An editor can't write a book without an author.

Of course 40k novels are lowbrow. 40K is inherently lowbrow.

I still enjoy my "Historical War In Spaaaaace" Gaunt's Ghosts novels anyway.

While I've said that high sales =/= high quality, I'd also never say that a book that isn't high quality can't be fun.

Now to read some Flashman-esque Ciaphas Cain stories...