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I’ve had 3 Vypers sitting in boxes for more years than I dare say, but finally built one tonight. Talk about a kit back from the early days of GW plastic and definitely building like one.
Anyway, wasn’t really sure on best weapon choice but opted for the Missile Launcher. I figured that the single shot of the brightlance isn’t reliable enough without rerolls if you’re really wanting to land that -1 to hit instead of kill a target. The missile launcher can be used in a pseudo AT roll but also has the D6 blast option if you want better chances of getting the -1 to hit. Other option I was toying with was Starcannon. Figured if I wanted scatters or shuricannons I would just opt for bikes.
Anybody taking Vypers, and if so, with what loadout?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention Wraith Knights, are they not worth the points this go around?

They are not. Outside of competitive events you'll be fine bringing one, but they're just so many points. I feel the best build right now is suncannon + shield, in a return to ancient days.

 bullyboy wrote:

Anybody taking Vypers, and if so, with what loadout?

Not taking them, not even remotely considering them. Their ability just doesn't really do anything we want - you either want to kill a target, or avoid being shot at entirely. The only exception is probably knights (you'd ideally still just kill them, but neutering one for a turn while focus firing down others might work). If I would bring them, I'd take shuriken cannons to guarantee a hit. As you say though, might as well just bike windriders then, and actually do a good amount of damage.

Vypers are an odd one.

War Walkers have a superior weapon load, and a fancier special rule. An additional -1AP is just amazing.

If you’ve got them, they’re definitely playable, as mobile firepower is always going to be useful, and as said they became quite nasty against Knights.

I think I’d have a look at what my local, regular opponents are fielding. If they like to field big centre piece things, like the honking great Tau battlesuits? A Vyper appeals, as giving those -1 to hit, even if only for a turn or two, has a stronger appeal in the early game. Keep such things slightly on the wonk until the rest of the army has had a chance to obliterate them.

My opinion would be more favourable if they could still swap out the Catapults for a Cannon, but they can’t. And there’s no point pining for what could’ve been.

That being said? Points allowing, a random Vyper dropped in the list could pay dividends. Careful positioning, save it’s shots for last, and wait to see if there’s an enemy unit in need of a quick nerfing before it chews up whatever is near it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
*record scratch*

I’m at an assembly cross roads with my Aspect Warriors.

I’ve now assembled five each of Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions and Swooping Hawks. And I’ve another five of each squad to go.

And I’m paralysed with indecision. Given the points are even, is there a good argument for taking a unit of ten, over two units of five?

The former seems more resilient, better able to survive a whoopsie during the battle. The latter gives me more precious Exarchs, and their hitting power, and allows me to spread the pain a little bit further - though I would miss out on Stratagem Efficiency.

Thoughts?

I like warp spiders in 10 squads. There exarch weapons are not really much better then the normal attacks and the CC version doesn’t really support the unit all that well. Also the 10 man is good for if you lose guys during the warp jump and for use with over watch.

Don’t forget that GW stores have the free fire dragon this month. I grabbed mine today so can easily do 10 fire dragons or 2x5 with exarchs.
I mostly think MSU is going to better, but I may be wrong.

Can units share transports these days? I swear I’ve seen people mention it, but dunno if I’m thinking of a previous edition?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Can units share transports these days? I swear I’ve seen people mention it, but dunno if I’m thinking of a previous edition?

Yes. For example, 1x5 Banshees and 1x5 Avengers can both go inside the same Wave Serpent.

Ok, that opens up options, squad size wise.

For instance, and not saying this is a good idea, but the above example. Dragons slag an enemy transport, Banshees charge and ideally dispatch the occupants.

Swooping Hawks I think I do want two squads of 5. I get the same number of Grenade Pack attacks, and provided I pick on the same target (easy enough to arrange), I’m increasing my maximum MW from 6 to all 10.

Hmm.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*record scratch*

I’m at an assembly cross roads with my Aspect Warriors.

I’ve now assembled five each of Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions and Swooping Hawks. And I’ve another five of each squad to go.

And I’m paralysed with indecision. Given the points are even, is there a good argument for taking a unit of ten, over two units of five?

The former seems more resilient, better able to survive a whoopsie during the battle. The latter gives me more precious Exarchs, and their hitting power, and allows me to spread the pain a little bit further - though I would miss out on Stratagem Efficiency.

Thoughts?

Depends on specifics, I think. Generally, I haven't been *super* impressed by most of our strats for aspect warriors outside of Sanctuary in the Sky. So the extra exarchs probably outweigh stratagem efficiency as a rule of thumb. That said:

* Banshees have fight first. So getting to swing with 10 girls after your opponent charges is a lot more scary than swinging with 5 and then having to wait for your opponent to potentially kill the other 5 before they swing.

* I'm kind of iffy on swooping hawks, but the obvious use case is with Baharroth dropping them in grenade range. In which case, I think the 10 man squad is probably the better choice.

* 10 spiders overwatching is a lot more scary than 5.

* Dragons really like Sanctuary, so it's tempting to hop them back in a serpent using that. Which means that strat efficiency actually kind of matters here. Also, 2 shrine tokens means that you can have an attached Fuegan get sustained hits with his beam profile multiple times.

Smaller and big squads both generally seem viable though. Except maybe in the case of shining spears. I'm not sure if those guys are still hard to get fully within engagement range due to their base sizes now that they have a way to move through walls. I'll also mention that I've been enjoying disembarking reapers from a falcon and Sanctuary-ing them each turn so that they have to-wound rerolls every turn.

Hadn’t thought of Overwatch.

It is a nice problem to have though, knowing that a minimum sized squad isn’t automatically useless!

Banshees I’d definitely want 10 in a squad. They’re good, but really want to be deleting the enemy unit, or at least only leaving a model or two for safety, as they really can’t take it.

Scorpions too, as they’re the lads I’d want for churning up large units. The 10 bods there bring a load of extra, perfectly fine, attacks, and will keep the squad fighting fit should something go a bit wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I’m kind of tempted, just for Lols, to go off the reservation and make an army comprised of an Avatar, 3 Glaive Knights and 3 Shooty Knights.

Mostly because I’m an adult, and there’s nothing to truly stop my idiocy.

The only aspects I'd consider in 10 man units are Reapers and Avengers.

Everything else works better (or works well enough) in minimum sized units, and makes it significantly easier to hide them.
Banshees benefit from having a leader (Autarch or Jain Zar) to ensure they have enough punch to take out their targets.
While 10 spiders make for a credible overatch threat (or damage unit in general), I almost exclusively use them to hunt backfield units and do actions - and 5 spiders is enough for that. I'd much rather have two of those units instead of one big one.

How are people finding Wraith Blades?

Of the two loadouts, I think I’m more convinced by Axe and Shield. Whilst 4+ to hit isnt great, they at least hit like a ton of bricks, and they seem very resilient.

Unaccompanied and unaugmented, they look to be pretty capable of holding up Terminators and similar, and cutting Nids beasties down to size.

Coming back to 40k after some months hiatus only to discover that we have a new codex. Intriguing.

Reading trough the detachments, I find it to be a mixed bag - in terms of how much the notion of playing them excites me that is (not talking powerlevel, it's way to soon to tell and I'm way to inexperienced with them to judge properly already.)

Aspect Host - 4/5.
The clear winner in the "makes me wanna play"-department. Solid and easy to understand detachment rule, with some fun and good enhancements/stratagems.
Good variation with focus on all the various aspects, autarchs and the avatar. I also can't stress enough how happy it made me to see that Autarchs can join aspect warriors now!
Will most likely be the detachment I play in my first codex-game.

War Host - 3/5
Seems like a solid allround detachment for mixed lists. Will probably be my go-to detachment in lists where I don't want to focus on anything in particular.
Movement shennanigans is always fun and very Eldar-y.

Spirit Conclave - 3/5
I have always had a softspot for Wraith-lists. I can easily see myself playing this detachment when I want to try out a Wraith-heavy list.

Guardian Battlehost - 2,5/5.
This feels very meme:y. A very restrictive detachment, but I do have 50-60 Guardians, 20 Dire Avengers and some Support Weapons, and I can easily see myself write a list centered around these.

Windrider Host: 1/5.
Saimhann/Jetbike and Vyper-spamm has never been my thing. Doubt I'll ever play it.

Armoured Warhost: 1/5.
I can see the appeal, but as with the Windrider host, focusing on (spamming) skimmer-tanks has never been my thing. Doubt I'll every play this either.

Ghost of the Webay: 0/5.
Harlequin-detachment. I don't play them, bye.

Devoted to Ynnead: 0/5.
Ynnead-detachment. I don't play them, bye.

Seer Council: ??? /5.
I got a mild headache reading trough the rules.I'll read trough them again when I'm not tired.

Time to start writing an Aspect Host-list.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How are people finding Wraith Blades?

Of the two loadouts, I think I’m more convinced by Axe and Shield. Whilst 4+ to hit isnt great, they at least hit like a ton of bricks, and they seem very resilient.

Unaccompanied and unaugmented, they look to be pretty capable of holding up Terminators and similar, and cutting Nids beasties down to size.

With Ghostswords being D2 I see myself prefering those.
A 4++ on a unit with a 2+ isn't worth *that* much, and +2S isn't worth losing 2 Attacks.
Swords also get much better mileage out of the Blades From Beyond-stratagem if you're playing Spirit Conclave.

Huh, thought the swords were D1. But I’m wrong.

Hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For slicing up Marines, without Psyker support?

5 with Swords generate 20 attacks, 10 of which will hit. Against T4, that’s 3+ to wound. I’ll round up, giving 7 wounding hits. -2 to save, against Sv 3+, that’s…5 unsaved wounds. Again I’m rounding up.

5 with Axe generate 15 attacks. 8 hits (rounding up), 7 wounds.

Seems they’re exactly equal, rounding up.

But, the Axes begin to perform better as enemy T increases. And we get that tasty 4+ Invulnerable. Which, tough as they are I think tips it for me.

Yes Blades will, having significantly more attacks, always have higher damage potential. But that 4+ Inv means I can confidently engage otherwise scary units.

Swords are A5, so wouldn't it be 25 attacks, 12,5 which hit?

It seems….I cannot Basic Arithmeric today.

Well if they were even with 20% less attacks, they should be that much better.

And that’s against the optimal target; killing MEQ. Against tougher targets the axes look better. I think that’s a fair balance.

And due to their statline the 4++ might be more relevant. They are going to draw the ire or more nasty gins, some of which are going to be packing ap3+

I think the Blades will edge out the Axe against stuff like Orks, where you don’t tend to see a lot of decent save values. And against Tyranids, where you never know what sized bugs might come a-bothering, the Blades again have slightly better ubiquity, mostly due to the base 2+ Save.

Aren't you using then as Objective denial-due to the fact that they are very difficult to dislodge?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It seems….I cannot Basic Arithmeric today.

Keep it up and you'll get your US Citizenship.

With Eldar, I think I’m going to favour a very aggressive playstyle. We’re typically squishy enough I don’t think it’ll pay to let the enemy come to you.

Yes, Wraithblades and Wraithguard are tough, and on their feets comparatively so. But I’d still want them being an active menace to my opponent, something he has to deal with.

Ideally, I’ll claim objectives when my opponent doesn’t have any legs left

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With Eldar, I think I’m going to favour a very aggressive playstyle. We’re typically squishy enough I don’t think it’ll pay to let the enemy come to you.

Yes, Wraithblades and Wraithguard are tough, and on their feets comparatively so. But I’d still want them being an active menace to my opponent, something he has to deal with.

Ideally, I’ll claim objectives when my opponent doesn’t have any legs left

I agree I think aggressive is the way to play this army and just constantly moving and disrupting is how they play. I personally don't really like the wraith units outside of their own detachment, in which case you are building into them. For like 15 more points than 5 wraith bales and a wave serpent to get them anywhere or less than 10 wraith blades, you can take an avatar of Khanie. It is tougher, and has better damage out put, and can use battle focus. So if you want a mid-board threat that is hard to kill and can scrap over mid-board objectives I think the Avatar is better in any other detachment. Also the model is surprisingly smaller than I thought. I just got the new one and thought he would be like Daemon Primarch size, but he is much smaller, like maybe Abadon or Imperial primarch size. It makes hiding him really easy, especially after using some kind of move trick.

The army is very specialized, and very different from other armies. In most armies you find the couple of data sheets that are awesome, and then just spam them with a sprinkle of support. Unless you are building into one of the very specialized detachments here (i.e. bikes, wraiths, guardians, mech), I find myself wanting a wide variety of units usually just one, as they are specialists in what they do. The only thing I have brought more than one of, and would say you always want two to three of is war walkers.

I think they did a great job with this dex. For me it plays how Eldar should feel, fast, powerful but fragile if you catch them, and most everything is usable with only a couple really sub-par units that I would probably never take. I also think the points feel right, maybe be a few being slightly to cheap, and a few being slightly to much, other than like I said a couple of misses.

Trying to get another game in soon, so hopefully.

For me, the Eldar Codex is one I think I’d feel fairly confident if asked to comprise an army of randomly selected units.

Whilst there are clear synergies to be had, inclining Stratagems, I don’t think any unit needs or relies on them to get stuff done.

The only duds (if I may be so bold) in the codex I'd say are Nighspinners (way to expensive), Rangers (won't do anything but die) and - outside of Guardian Battlehost - regular Guardian Defenders.

I may be a bit harsh on the Defenders though. They're not bad or anything, I just feel that they don't really *do* anything other than bring a heavy weapon (no more resource generation), and now Autarchs don't need them for a bunker anymore. Their thing now seems to be being able to go "Eeek! " when something shoots at them and then scurry to relative safety assuming they survive.

I guess you'd still potentially want one unit to put your Farseer in, but thats about it.

 MinscS2 wrote:
The only duds (if I may be so bold) in the codex I'd say are Nighspinners (way to expensive), Rangers (won't do anything but die) and - outside of Guardian Battlehost - regular Guardian Defenders.

If all your Rangers do is die then youre probably using them wrong.
My own Rangers generally serve me very well.
I infiltrate them onto either NML objectives & then do actions turn 2+. Or sometimes infiltrate them just to block my opponents infiltrate. And then do actions T2+
Or onto nice tall vantage points not in my DZ & enjoy plunging fire.
Yes, I could be infiltrating with Scorpions. But at a higher cost. (My 3 ranger squads are barely more than 2 squads of Scorpions). They also aren't regarded as being as threatening as Scorpions. More of a nuisance. And I'm bringing plenty more for my foe to concentrate on than imedietly killing off some action monkey snipers. (Yhough they should...)

As for the Guardians?
They make a nice unit to bring along when I'm playing a lighter list for some reason Like when I'm playing new people. Not everything has to be tourney-hard....
And theyre an important aspect of an Ulthwe themed force you know.
I'm quite content to have a pair of Guardian squads holding my backfield, plinking away with thier platforms in such games.

 MinscS2 wrote:
The only duds (if I may be so bold) in the codex I'd say are Nighspinners (way to expensive), Rangers (won't do anything but die) and - outside of Guardian Battlehost - regular Guardian Defenders.

I think I disagree with Defenders, as they are pretty good for a line Battleline units, and the reactive move is very disruptive. I do think 100 points for them is to high though, probably would be nice at say 90.

I did not care for Rangers either, I think scorpions do the same thing but better, although they are 20 points more.

I don't have and did not play the nightspinner, but yeah it doesn't really look great.

I would probably classify the only dud units as the farseer on bike (his ability is terrible for a unit that wants to sit back and shoot), the warlock on bike (he is better, but to expensive and doesn't really add much), the foot warlock (cool little trick with -2 to charge, but not worth it for extra points to a guardian squad that is already slightly over costed, but if you could put him with aspects oh boy), I think the normal farseer might be on the line, he doesn't bring much, the +1 to hit is kind of cool, but that's it, and again he can't go with aspects, so it is guardians, or conclave, who have flamers. I think if he was like 10 or 15 points cheaper he would be better, but at 70 I find myself not even bringing him with the conclave. Also on the line are the shining spears in my opinion. They are really fast, and and a threat, I just think they are like 10 to 15 points to expensive.

Although on the opposite end, at the next balance pass where they make changes (might not on the next due to how close the book came out to the dataslate), I expect Asruman's ability to be nerfed, and slight point increases on War walkers, fire dragons, dark reapers, and maybe a few others.

But I agree, you could use pick like 2 characters 3 vehicles, and 5 infantry randomly, and still probably have a useable list for a friendly game, which is a good showing, and something I cannot say about CSM.

It helps that as an army of specialists it’s pretty obvious what units do. So when putting together a TAC list you know what you are getting from everything.

 xeen wrote:

I think I disagree with Defenders, as they are pretty good for a line Battleline units, and the reactive move is very disruptive. I do think 100 points for them is to high though, probably would be nice at say 90.

Defenders are okay but not great. In a vacuum, their shtick is that you can keep your opponent from shooting at them more than once (assuming good cover/positioning), but that kind of means that their job is to output mediocre damage and then bleed slowly. They don't feel "tough", and they don't really feel "slippery" (because you still have to take the initial attack to the face), and they also don't hold ground well because their special rule encourages them to dance behind walls. But their special rule *is* useful, and their damage output is okay for their points, and sticking a farseer with them to auto-6 with a bright lance attack is decent. Plus they have some value as a place to hide your d-cannon (which can be the target of that auto 6 from the farseer to guarantee dev wounds or high damage.)

I did not care for Rangers either, I think scorpions do the same thing but better, although they are 20 points more.

Rangers are great for the same reasons they were great in the index. Cheap infiltrators/speed bumps/utility units that can also have a decent chance of sniping characters if you really want to use them for that instead. They're definitely less good at killing stuff without Illic and his Strands of Fate auto-6 attack though.

I don't have and did not play the nightspinner, but yeah it doesn't really look great.

I have nightspinners and used them a fair bit in the index. They're useful but just more expensive than they should be. The utility of slowing a unit down can really mess with your opponent's plans, and S7, D2, TL is actually pretty okay against certain targets. But the combination price hike + Indirect Fire nerf makes them hard to justify. Losing DW in the codex also makes their offense a lot more niche. I can't use them to fish for 6s to get through an enemy's good armor save any more.

I would probably classify the only dud units as the farseer on bike (his ability is terrible for a unit that wants to sit back and shoot), the warlock on bike (he is better, but to expensive and doesn't really add much), the foot warlock (cool little trick with -2 to charge, but not worth it for extra points to a guardian squad that is already slightly over costed, but if you could put him with aspects oh boy),

I think the bikeseer is okay. Yeah, you have to get danger close to that thing that you debuff, and ideally you'd just kill that thing anyway. But if you don't have the offense to just kill the target of the debuff, and if that target doesn't particularly want to go after your bikes, it can be a nice way to help keep your other units alive. Plus, an auto 6 for your shuriken cannons can make the unit a bit better at doing chip damage to tough targets.

Warlock skyrunners turning off cover functionally makes your shuriken bikes AP-2 (-3 if there's a war walker around), which is pretty nice. Add in the destructor, and you can boost your shooting significantly. Plus a second singing spear in the squad means you might get lucky and squeak through 3 damage from a spear every now and then.

Footlock doesn't look super impressive, but I think he actually has decent synergy. If you're trying to use those defenders as a screen/frontline unit, then their Fade Back rules plus the warlock's rule effectively makes the enemy's charge d6+3" harder. If you stick him with a storm guardian unit, you now have 3 torrent weapons in one squad plus a singing spear to maybe get lucky and help out the fusion guns. Plus they're a cheap way to spread around some (relatively) cheap psyker presence for the seer council detachment.

I think the normal farseer might be on the line, he doesn't bring much, the +1 to hit is kind of cool, but that's it, and again he can't go with aspects, so it is guardians, or conclave, who have flamers. I think if he was like 10 or 15 points cheaper he would be better, but at 70 I find myself not even bringing him with the conclave.

The +1 to-hit is nice. Consider: aspect host hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s army-wide. Even without aspect host, making an extra 1/6th of the shots going into an enemy brick can help a lot. Plus, see above about using branchign fates on guardian/support weapons. With stormies, you'd probably be using him to help out your fusion guns, but stormies are probably a less attractive platform for her. Honestly, I think she's really solid as-is.

Also on the line are the shining spears in my opinion. They are really fast, and and a threat, I just think they are like 10 to 15 points to expensive.

Idk. I think they were finally in a good place in the index at 90, but they work a lot better now. Their special rule means they're way easier to deliver, and you're getting 10 attacks that hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ against vehicles at D3 with a mix of AP-2 and AP-3. Pretty sure that maths out to roughly one dead W10 vehicle, and that's without factoring in their shooting. Seems hard to keep them alive after that, but I can see them trading well against any army with a 130+ point monster/vehicle.

 xeen wrote:

I did not care for Rangers either, I think scorpions do the same thing but better, although they are 20 points more.

I disagree as I've never seen a scorpion provide sniper fire. Wich is 1/2 the reason I take Rangers.

I'd argue Scorpions are worth it for the turn-1 Scout move, but its probably matchup/meta/table dependent. Against certain armies its really good to mess with their early movement.

Beyond that though, I think certain units are very list/detachment dependent. They need to do something rather than just be explicitly better versus 40k as a whole.

I mean if you are running the Aspect Host, for instance, I think Guardian Defenders would feel very average if you keep it basic. But equally.. I'm not sure points is impacting stuff here. I can't see how you'd say "never run this at 100, maybe run it at 90." The issue is you'd probably always want another squad of Aspect Warriors and are unlikely to be maxed out.

You can soup things up with a Farseer and D-Cannon, but now this unit - which is still fragile - is costing nearly 300 points. I feel if your opponent has some dedicated fast stuff they can probably just chase you down regardless of the ability to move D6+1 inches - and at that points level it hurts.

I like the idea of jumping back with a Warlock and hopefully prompting a failed charge. But... again we get into this question of investment. A guardian defender unit with a warlock still isn't really doing very much to my mind. At 145 points would I prefer to just have 2*5 Dire Avengers (that probably aren't worth taking) for say 150? I think you need your army to work with it. Its going to be more interesting in a Guardian Battlehost or Seer Council army. Maybe even Ynnari (although in that case you may want it kept cheap and throw-awayable to buff hammer units).

I think there's kind of an argument for Storm Guardians instead (something not said for most the last 30 years) because they bring sticky objectives and two flamers/fusion guns vs a Bright Lance feels like a potentially reasonable trade into a variety of targets.

The Storm Guardians also get a 5++ and you can always get lucky. The counter argument on that is "if your opponent is using AP-2 (or higher) stuff into Guardians you are already winning" - but sometimes the dice force their hand.

I think Shining Spears are just a bit awkward. In an Aspect Host I think the odds for a 3 man unit - with shooting - are just about good enough into a W10 vehicle. Without that boost, without any support, its not that reliable. And if you lose one model (not exactly hard, its a Marine with a 5++) those odds narrow sharply. They are a prime target for indirect shooting, overwatch, anything that chucks out mortal wounds etc.

But... I think if they got much cheaper (say 100 points for 3) they'd be a near auto-take. So I can't see that happening.

Simpleton opinion on Rangers?

The potential to snipe out enemy characters, and their buffage, is something I’d far rather have and not use or it not work, than go into battle without it.

They do need some help from the rest of the army and rules (Plunging Fire, War Walkers for a total of -3 AP and maybe Shroud Runners for No Cover) to become a properly credible threat. But even on their own? To be able to wreck my opponent’s synergy just feels like an essential tool. Even if that tool is finnickety and a bit on the wonk.

And it’s that flat Damage 2. That’s pretty peachy.

I’m also certain others more immediately familiar with the stacking of buffs could find a way to make them horrific. Spesh as, ultimately, if they do their job once per game, against the right target? They’ll be pulling their weight.

Shining Spears are an odd duck. No tokens, no Phoenix Lord, can’t be joined by any character.

BUT

Lance. For a flat Damage 4? And multiple attacks per model on a pretty reasonable WS3+? And knacking Vehicles and Monsters on a flat 3+? They’re a useful wildcard. Decent potential to wreck something big on the charge, but super reliable when polishing something off that you really need gone.

That all being said? I do accept they’re the odd ducks of the Codex. But they’re still full of potential.