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One of the silliest background things in 40K is how big the Primarchs are. It makes no sense at all to me and really hurts some of the pre-existing background - like did Jagatai Khan charge into battle on a really giant horse? Did the human foster families of the primarchs not find it weird that they were towering giants? How did they fit inside normal sized buildings and participate in life?

It's really silly. I know it's mostly so they can make big impressive models and sell them for more money, but it really does sort of make humans like orks - they're lead by the physically biggest people around.

But when did it come about? I've been playing since 2e and I don't recall anything about primarchs being gigantic back then. Was it during the original Forgeworld Horus Heresy stuff? Or was it invented for the novels? Because if so it's such a totally weird thing to invent for a novel series that I'd love to be able to pick the brains of the people who came up with it.

Agreed. Models are expected to have a size that scales with authority and power, but fluff-wise it makes little sense that 10-foot-tall people were living relatively incognito before the Emperor recruited them.

 Da Boss wrote:
but it really does sort of make humans like orks - they're lead by the physically biggest people around.

Just like Orks, I think there's a chicken-or-egg thing going on because of the Warp. What if they're not the leaders because they're the biggest, but on the contrary, are the biggest because they're the leaders? I've read on another forum that the Primarchs are Warp entities (or in some way heavily influenced and shaped by the Warp), so perhaps they grow according to their reputation and the heightened expectations of trillions of people who've heard of their great deeds.

Plus, perhaps the Emperor can (either consciously or subconsciously) bestow them "gifts" such as extra size, in the same way that Chaos gods bestow mutations.

As for the Emperor himself, who's often depicted as a titan despite not being genetically altered and who'd supposedly been around for thousands of years before he decided to take charge, there is some speculation that his appearance is in fact an illusion or projection, and that if you peel it away, he looks fairly normal.

EDIT: Found a similar thread I started in the past, regarding the Emperor's size.

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They weren't living incognito though?

Nearly every single Primarch was found by a family then became the leader of their respective world.

The only ones who didn't were Kurze and Angron, who were murder-batman and space-spartacus respectively.

 Gert wrote:
They weren't living incognito though?

By "relatively incognito" (thanks for omitting that important word), I mean that their status as genetically-engineered sons of the Emperor was not known in their respective homeworlds. I wouldn't say that they "blended in", exactly, but neither were they so freakishly huge as to require a note in their basket saying: "This is my abnormally large baby son, take good care of him. Signed: the Emperor of Mankind XOXO".

Granted, they were all locally famous before the Emperor sought them out for his Great Crusade, but it was all thanks to deeds they did in their own name.

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I assumed the Emperor’s Visage was a Psychic effect.

He projects an image of power, and that's what we see.

I intentionally left the Emperor out because I know he can manipulate perception and perhaps actual size, or simulate it so well with telekinesis it makes no difference. If he is supposed to be from Old Earth I assume he can be normal sized as well.

-Guardsman- wrote:

By "relatively incognito" (thanks for omitting that important word), I mean that their status as genetically-engineered sons of the Emperor was not known in their respective homeworlds. I wouldn't say that they "blended in", exactly, but neither were they so freakishly huge as to require a note in their basket saying: "This is my abnormally large baby son, take good care of him. Signed: the Emperor of Mankind XOXO".

Granted, they were all locally famous before the Emperor sought them out for his Great Crusade, but it was all thanks to deeds they did in their own name.

I mean its not like genetic engineering wasn't something humanity couldn't do.
And when the Primarchs did grow into adults, they were almost messiah like in uniting their worlds. Except for Lorgar who literally was the messiah for Colchis.

It's important to take into account that these were worlds that had suffered the horrors of the Long Night and were being handed the golden ticket.
We've got quite a few examples of people asking questions in the Primarchs books about where the respective Primarch actually came from and the end result is that due to local superstition, political power or the legendary status many of the Primarchs achieved, nobody really cares.

Pertuabo was a weapon for the Tyrant of Lochos to use against his enemies, Angron was a gladiator, Manus was raised in the ultimate culture of "might makes right".
When a giant dude wearing the hide of a feared dragon protects your villages, you give the nice man some bread and soup so he keeps killing the dragons and don't ask too many questions.

Would any of this be worse if the primarchs were normal space marine sized? At least a space marine sized khan could ride an actual horse and the rest could fit into buildings.

 Da Boss wrote:
Would any of this be worse if the primarchs were normal space marine sized? At least a space marine sized khan could ride an actual horse and the rest could fit into buildings.

Maybe it's all propaganda and myth that they are really big.

Stateside we have the Legend of Paul Bunyan, who was a literal giant with Babe, his giant blue ox.

I'm sure in the beginning he was a tall fellow and over countless retellings he became T.Rex sized.

It's probably the same with the Primarchs. The models reflect the myth not the reality.

 Gert wrote:
Except for Lorgar who literally was the messiah for Colchis.

"He's not the Messiah! He's a very naughty boy!"

 Da Boss wrote:
Would any of this be worse if the primarchs were normal space marine sized? At least a space marine sized khan could ride an actual horse and the rest could fit into buildings.

They're supposed to be gods among gods. Sure they could just be normal Space Marines but that's pretty boring for mythical figures.
They're the Heracles, Ajax and Achilles of the Imperium.
The Trojan War is boring when everyone is just a regular dude and it's all about trade or politics rather than the ultimate war between demi-gods on the mortal plane.

Also, the steeds of Chogoris are never explicitly said to be horses but the less definitive term equines.
And have you ever seen a horse IRL? They can be pretty massive and throwing in the genetic engineering we know Golden Age Humanity is known for and it's not like a super-horse couldn't be made.
Just like there aren't any wolves on Fenris, there aren't any horses on Chogoris.

I assume the change came after the release of demon primarchs. Having such huge models represent the minions of Chaos probably influenced the development of subsequent loyalist primarchs. After all, how can these 'brothers' be seen as equals in power when the baddies are twice the size as the 'good' guys?

It's simplistic and stupid, but that's marketing.

Luke Skywalker is boring guys, because he isn't twelve feet tall.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Luke Skywalker is boring guys, because he isn't twelve feet tall.

That's why the real hero of the story is Chewbacca.

 amanita wrote:
I assume the change came after the release of demon primarchs. Having such huge models represent the minions of Chaos probably influenced the development of subsequent loyalist primarchs. After all, how can these 'brothers' be seen as equals in power when the baddies are twice the size as the 'good' guys?

It's simplistic and stupid, but that's marketing.

If we're talking in 30k/40k scale, I'm pretty sure Forge World's resin Primarch series began before Magnus was released in plastic.

I'm discounting the old Epic-scale Daemon primarchs for this purpose, given the long lag time between them coming out and the early HH ones being released.

 Da Boss wrote:
One of the silliest background things in 40K is how big the Primarchs are. It makes no sense at all to me and really hurts some of the pre-existing background - like did Jagatai Khan charge into battle on a really giant horse? Did the human foster families of the primarchs not find it weird that they were towering giants? How did they fit inside normal sized buildings and participate in life?

It's really silly. I know it's mostly so they can make big impressive models and sell them for more money, but it really does sort of make humans like orks - they're lead by the physically biggest people around.

But when did it come about? I've been playing since 2e and I don't recall anything about primarchs being gigantic back then. Was it during the original Forgeworld Horus Heresy stuff? Or was it invented for the novels? Because if so it's such a totally weird thing to invent for a novel series that I'd love to be able to pick the brains of the people who came up with it.

I'm flicking through White Dwarf 277 (UK) and under the notes for Alpha Legion it states

Horus waited for them. As five men burst onto the deck, he shot four of them through the head before they even had a chance to act. Without pause the fifth shot rang out, but the last man was different. More than a foot taller even than the Luna Wolves Space Marines, he had piercing green eyes and looked almost a match for Horus himself. Somehow, even at such close range, the man sidestepped fast enough that the bolt shell only grazed his temple and exploded against the bulkhead behind. As the man charged forwards, a second shot slammed into his shoulder, but still he did not slow. More shots were fired by guards and bridge officers as well as Horus. The man staggered under multiple impacts, but incredibly came on through the firestorm to launch himself at the Luna Wolves Priamrch. Then at the last instant, with his hands inches from Horus's throat, the man stopped. The two stared at each other for a long moment, before Horus started laughing. He had found the last Primarch."


Which..... given that corporate is very dead-set on 7ft tall Space Marines, would imply Alpharius was 8+ foot tall.


And for amusement, i believe one of the video game manuals for Dawn of War 2 (2009) had this to say


The Primarchs were warriors created directly from the genetic template of the Emperor himself. Standing nearly ten feet in height, with superhuman strength, speed and mental capacity, the Primarchs were second only to their father in glory and might.


TLDR: Alphararius was more than 8ft tall in 2002. By 2009, Primarchs became less than 10ft tall

My assumption was that the Emperor did a bunch of gene-modding on himself during the DAoT and was previously human-sized.

Daemon primarchs existed over 35 years ago almost the size of warhound titans. Being huge and powerful was part of the boon of temporal chaos power, at the cost of the soul.

in 2nd ed, Ranulf the Strong was supposed to be larger than Leman Russ and stronger, but he was still just a marine in terminator armour.

The scale creep happened in the early 2000s when they redid the horus heresy with sabretooth games CCG and the IA WD articles. Most of the art people associate with the modern emperor and primarchs all originated with that CCG. The Visions of heresy books BL released are just collections of art from that CCG.

So it might have been in the Sabretooth Games CCG and the art books that came after? Interesting. I wonder if it was with the blessing of GW that they increased the size or by themselves. But that predates the books for sure, so I guess my question is at least partially answered. I wonder if even back then they had in mind to do the minis and change the size or if it was purely an artistic decision for the illustrations?

Btw, I think super powered primarchs can be super powered and spectacular but still be normal space marine sized. Their size doesn't explain their supernatural strength anyway, it's all from psychic/warp stuff, so why not have them be normal space marine sized super heroic characters? I don't see a need for them to be big so that they can be strong. I also think the older background was obviously written from the POV that they just were not that much bigger than the average human and it doesn't make very much sense if you upscale them. Stuff like Konrad Curze lurking in the shadows in back alleys makes a lot less sense when he would barely fit in an alley.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
My assumption was that the Emperor did a bunch of gene-modding on himself during the DAoT and was previously human-sized.

Yes there is supposed to be such a thing as emperor geneseed. I expect the primarchs were made using similar processes that he had used on himself to enhance his own powers beyond what the chaos gods had given him

I assume after Invader Zim was first aired?

mrFickle wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
My assumption was that the Emperor did a bunch of gene-modding on himself during the DAoT and was previously human-sized.

Yes there is supposed to be such a thing as emperor geneseed. I expect the primarchs were made using similar processes that he had used on himself to enhance his own powers beyond what the chaos gods had given him

The Emperor Geneseed made the Grey Knights.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I assume after Invader Zim was first aired?

That doesn’t work though, because as we all know more organs == more human, while there is a lot of fluff effort put into the idea that all these guys with so many extra organs are no longer properly human

I always assumed it started as a BL thing, as certain authors have tendency to inflate sizes of basic marines as well. But I am not that familiar with the card game. Wasn't it a licenced product, not a GW studio product?

In any case, I hate the giant primarchs, they're just silly. They also mess up a lot of the older lore, where there are a lot of primarch relics, helmets, armours, weapons that normal marines can use, and that really doesn't work if the primarchs are so much bigger than the basic marines.

I think a lot of that could well have been influenced by the original Epic daemonic primarchs though. It may never have been intended to lead to that outcome, but they needed to be huge on the epic battlefield to shake out appropriately.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
My assumption was that the Emperor did a bunch of gene-modding on himself during the DAoT and was previously human-sized.

Yes there is supposed to be such a thing as emperor geneseed. I expect the primarchs were made using similar processes that he had used on himself to enhance his own powers beyond what the chaos gods had given him

The Emperor Geneseed made the Grey Knights.

Do we know that for 100%. If we do then it strengthens my belief in one of my theories that one of the missing primarchs was basically emperor v2.0. Maybe a backup incase the emperor dies and he could transfer his consciousness or basically was a PR guy. But if emperor geneseed exists then it suggest a primarch level being a then astartes

mrFickle wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
My assumption was that the Emperor did a bunch of gene-modding on himself during the DAoT and was previously human-sized.

Yes there is supposed to be such a thing as emperor geneseed. I expect the primarchs were made using similar processes that he had used on himself to enhance his own powers beyond what the chaos gods had given him

The Emperor Geneseed made the Grey Knights.

Do we know that for 100%. If we do then it strengthens my belief in one of my theories that one of the missing primarchs was basically emperor v2.0. Maybe a backup incase the emperor dies and he could transfer his consciousness or basically was a PR guy. But if emperor geneseed exists then it suggest a primarch level being a then astartes

Here's my sources:

"Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built on upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul. 8e Codex, page 7.



"When Malcador the Sigilite took the first Grey Knights to Titan, one of the relics he carried with him was rumored to be the ancient force sword. Along with his pure genetic legacy and psychic power, it was one of the Emperor's gifts to the newly founded Chapter." 8e Codex, page 27.



"They create germ cells known as gene-seed needed to mould new recruits into mighty Adeptus Astartes. This is the lifeblood of the Grey Knights, and is their genetic link to the Emperor himself." 8e Codex, page 37.

 Crimson wrote:
I always assumed it started as a BL thing, as certain authors have tendency to inflate sizes of basic marines as well. But I am not that familiar with the card game. Wasn't it a licenced product, not a GW studio product?

In any case, I hate the giant primarchs, they're just silly. They also mess up a lot of the older lore, where there are a lot of primarch relics, helmets, armours, weapons that normal marines can use, and that really doesn't work if the primarchs are so much bigger than the basic marines.

The story was written by Alan Merritt and most of the art was done by GW artists. You can read the story behind it in th visions book, but the fact that sabretooth made the CCG was an opportunity for them to rewrite the heresy and flesh it out, but it was entirely led by GW.