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How do!

Spinning off as I thought it was an interesting concept, even if I do say so myself.

First, I think we all kind of hope to see Epic revisit 40K. It’s a scale of battle most pleasing, and probably best reflects the sheer scale of conflict shown in the background.

It’s also the home of New Big Things. Even Legions Imperialis is doing that with the Dark Mechanicum units and sub-army list.

But we’ve a slight issue, after a fashion.

Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Votann, Imperial Guard, Chaos all make sense at such a grand scale. They’ve the numbers and logistics for such massive engagements.

But what of the less numerous Astartes, Custodes and Sororitas? Also stuff like Inquisitorial Assets. They’re all a cut above the Guard in function and power, but don’t typically have the raw numbers to mount a campaign unassisted. Well, maybe Sisters do. And on rare occasions, someone Very Naughty Indeed will attract the ire of an entire Chapter.

And here’s where my idea comes in. And it goes beyond “just make them really hitty”. Make them specific, additional attachments to the Imperial Guard.

For Marines, stat them appropriately. Decent for infantry Save, above average CAF, accurate firepower, possibly with Traits to reflect their overall discipline and efficiency. But make them a small Detachment of a Demi-Battle Company (so 3 Taccies, 1 Assault, 1 Devastator), which can then include support elements like tanks, Dreads and Speeders. Make their small size their vulnerability. Or just make it Battle Company sized, I guess. Still working on the finer details.

With appropriate Stats, and backed up by the more Spod Like Imperial Guard for holding objectives, providing serious artillery support etc? I think you could end up with a small group of Absolute Mad Lads that, used well by the player, act as the Force Multiplier Marines are “meant” to be.

And the same could work for Custards, Inquisition Assets etc. Perhaps an Inquisitor might do a 2nd Ed Warlock, and allow a nearby unit or two to alter its orders in a reactive way? Sisters could be a Detachment where you can assign elements to Guard Companies, giving them a Stat Boost and some extra muscle?

But outside of the Mechanicus (who absolutely do have the numbers and organisation to be fully independent and unsupported in a scrap), this to my mind would represent The Imperium at its fighting best in a suitably Background way. The Guard are your numbers and backbone. The other Imperial Forces work off that support. Just like Titan Legions and Knights.

Similar could be done for Exodites and Harlequins. Possibly even Dark Eldar if you really want, when fielded alongside a Craftworld force. There it’s not so much Commorites not having the numbers, so much as their preferred method of battle.

Could be an interesting tactical challenge. If that Demi-Company of Marines work as intended and described? You want them out there Marining as hard as they can, for as long as they can. Which would surely encourage following up their trail of destruction with Guard units, so their hard work isn’t squandered.

I like this idea. Not something GW would ever pursue though, specifically launching Epic 40K and not making Space Marines a playable standalone army. I just can’t see GW not leaning on their poster boys to sell the game.

Don’t forget Tyranids and Genestealer Cults, they could also be a combined force.

True.

Though perhaps there’s a middle ground?

Space Marine armies for Space Marine players.

But, when brought in as allies for Imperial Guard? Much less freedom in the Marines you can select.

I’d definitely want to see a full fledged Astartes Army have to contend with much smaller numbers than most foes.

By all means have them deadly, because they should be. But vulnerable to shock upsets, allowing yourself to be too heavily outnumbered etc.

Just when included as Allies? You end up with a small, mixed arms force from strictly limited options.

Depending on the base rules, perhaps the units comprising it can punch above their weight with crossfire type stuff.

Example off the top of my head? Some kind of Supression if the same enemy unit is targeted by a Tactical Squad, and a Predator?

Maybe even some kind of Precision Fire, allowing the Marine elements to target enemy command (reflecting their discipline, accuracy and the sheer amount of battlefield data typically available to Marines), impacting their Orders Options in the next turn?

Just ways to make A Little really feel like A Lot - with matching VPs for the foe should the Marines all get deaded. Force the owning player to treat them like a valuable, critical resource.

There's clearly a disconnect between lore Space Marines and in-game Space Marines. This is clear in the 28mm game, even more so in Epic 40K. A 3,000 point Epic Space Marine army can easily have a couple hundred Space Marines in it, 20% or more of an entire Chapter. Factions like the Imperial Guard would see a 3,000 point game as a relatively minor skirmish.

If GW ever do bring Epic 40K back (I don't think it's likely, but never say never) I don't see much appetite to change the disconnect between the fluff and the rules. Sure, Epic 40K Space Marines would probably just be Primaris, not First Born. A lot of Primaris can be crammed into a 2,000 point 28mm 40K army though, I don't see why the case would be different for Epic.


Having said all that I think both your ideas would be great house rules. Would annoy a lot of people though who want to run Companies of Space Marines in their army. If the people you play with aren't mad on Space Marines then I think it would be fun to explore something more lore friendly.

Epic: Armageddon does represent marines well with the way they reliably act under fire at great violence of action where regular forces would rout or bumble about, as well as being hypermobile precision strike forces that are always outmanned. LI and such struggle to do that without whole paradigm shifts.

The allied contingent idea is generally cool, but not one that is likely going to stick. Players like their monofaction armies, while the allied grand coalitions are seen more often in more infrequent megabattles.

Outside of LI (as mass Space Marines is the setting’s selling point), I think I’d still want Epic Marine Units to feel incredibly potent compared to others, and be comparatively few.

The sort of force where you, the player, can’t really afford many mistakes.

Could you make it so a Company + Support (Predators, Dreadnoughts, Terminators etc) feels and plays like a stupidly potent force?

I know I’m being probably unrealistically Backgroundcentric here. Still fun to offer and discuss ideas.

I mean, in 2nd Ed Epic, Eldar had the unique ability that, with sufficient Warlocks, you issued your Orders after your opponent revealed theirs. In the hands of a skilled player, that perk was damned good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One idea just popped into my head.

Close Combat in Epic isn’t something you rush into blindly. With enough bodies, even Guardsmen can topple a Titan.

What if to represent not just their skill, but an extended lifetime’s experience of Always Being Outnumbered? Rather than +1D6 to their combat roll, enemies outnumbering Marines only gain a limited benefit. Like, +D3, or even a flat +1.

If the Marines start off with a solid CAF, say +6? You can still mob them to death, but really need to work for it.

I feel like sm should be their own army, not a some detachment for militarum cause entire chapter fighting the doom is most Epic thing, like Ultramarines fighting Tyranids on Macrage or BA and successors on Baal. It's this is an epic? And demi company joined some guards isn't an Epic, just regular crusade.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Outside of LI (as mass Space Marines is the setting’s selling point), I think I’d still want Epic Marine Units to feel incredibly potent compared to others, and be comparatively few.

I've been playing NetEA with Guard against a GK opponent, and there are times when 15-20 Terminators wind up rolling a reinforced Mechanized Company (like nearly 100 troops with vehicle support). I feel like the system is already delivering what you're looking for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:
Epic: Armageddon does represent marines well with the way they reliably act under fire at great violence of action where regular forces would rout or bumble about, as well as being hypermobile precision strike forces that are always outmanned. LI and such struggle to do that without whole paradigm shifts.

The allied contingent idea is generally cool, but not one that is likely going to stick. Players like their monofaction armies, while the allied grand coalitions are seen more often in more infrequent megabattles.

Yeah I agree. I think allies is something that can already work, but people tend to prefer the aesthetics of mono-faction. I feel like allies naturally work for larger games though, above 3 or 4k points or whatever.

As a couple of the posters have said here MDG I think Armageddon is the one you are after as Marines are incredibly potent (very annoying if they are on the other side of the table). Their fighting efficacy is portrayed not so much in their stats, which are good, but in their ability to keep on fighting after being shot at lots and suffering lots of casualties. In summary, they need double blast markers to be suppressed, or eventually to break; it's a wonderful way of abstracting how they are described in the lore.
I think Legions probably didn't follow this as its essentially marines vs marines (with a small supporting cast) and so it doesn't make sense to have a base level where everything has that endurance. Also, remember it has probably two or three times the number of miniatures on the table as EA, so by necessity firepower and combat must be more deadly to kill those off. And again, that does kind of portray the utterly brutal marine vs. marine combat you had described in the Heresy books.

One other interesting thought that this topic has prompted is how Epic shows how marines have developed as a concept over the years. 1st and 2nd edition Epic they are not really that tough at all, other than with a good morale score, and instead their mobility is their main strength. Compare, at least with 1st edition, the Toughness 3 'chemically hardened' marines which existed prior to the 40k compendium being released towards 2nd edition 40k.
Then, by the time Armageddon was released, they had become the gene-enhanced 'knights in space' which they now exist as, and correspondingly are very tough on the tabletop, and a much smaller elite force.

Interesting idea for a thread in any case, I really enjoy this sort of discussion.

Was going to comment on game systems but everyone has beat me too it.

Essentially Epic:A isn't that grand a combat system, and is it the limit of a marine deployment, which is essentially a reinforced company, matching the fluff suprisingly well. Indeed Epic:A was one of the few GW games that was basted in the background and tried its best to make every army reflect it. Still with the system mechanics it starts to do poorly if you have more than 100 units (bases of infantry and tanks) in your army.

The only real change I would make to it is cosmetic. I would have more models per stand for guard and ork armies to make them have a bit more mass on the tabletop.

But a sample winning Epic list for space marines would be something like 80 marines of various types, 2 vindicators, 2 hunters, 2 land raiders, 4 predators, razorback or two, 5 land speeders, 20 scouts, 10 rhinos, drop pods as needed replacing rhinos, strike cruiser, 2 thunderhawks, 2 thunderbolts for air support.

Verses something like a mechanised guard list of 3 hydra, 200 guardsmen, 10 ogryn, 23 Chimera, 40 storm troopers, 4 Valkyries, 4 vultures, 4 sentinels, 9 manticores/basilisks and a baneblade.

Of course with how 40k has gone that could be a couple of 40k armies...

Guess I’ll have to check that out!

If you want to replicate an accurate elite SM feel (in Epic: Armageddon), I would recommend playing the DeathWatch army list.

With the Codex Astartes SM army list they don't feel elite and powerful at all, they are too weak (Tacticals have 4+ accross their stats, that's ridiculous...).

SU-152 wrote:
If you want to replicate an accurate elite SM feel (in Epic: Armageddon), I would recommend playing the DeathWatch army list.

With the Codex Astartes SM army list they don't feel elite and powerful at all, they are too weak (Tacticals have 4+ accross their stats, that's ridiculous...).

I'd have to disagree with that, straight up. Marines very much are and feel like an elite force due to their 1+ initiative (very reliable actions in a game where C&C is key), high strategy rating that basically always lets them decide who goes first when it matters, ATSKNF being a superpower in a game about supression and decisive assaults combined with their general mobility that lets them pick which clipping assault they'll go for rather than bash their heads into the only thing in front of them like an armoured Guard battalion. What they are not is an easy army that's good at everything, which is good. That's the idea with E:A lists, they're themed around tighter approaches to war rather than one-upping one another. Codex Marines are mainly a fast air-drop assault force that exploits any opportunities they can find or create to win their objectives, not to pummel the enemy line to the ground wholesale.

While individual Tactical marines are not superheroic, with Epic generally aiming for more grounded depiction of various big baddies of the universe, Terminators certainly are. Especially ones that you can just teleport in your enemy's vulnerable rear areas...

 Sherrypie wrote:

SU-152 wrote:
If you want to replicate an accurate elite SM feel (in Epic: Armageddon), I would recommend playing the DeathWatch army list.

With the Codex Astartes SM army list they don't feel elite and powerful at all, they are too weak (Tacticals have 4+ accross their stats, that's ridiculous...).

I'd have to disagree with that, straight up. Marines very much are and feel like an elite force due to their 1+ initiative (very reliable actions in a game where C&C is key), high strategy rating that basically always lets them decide who goes first when it matters, ATSKNF being a superpower in a game about supression and decisive assaults combined with their general mobility that lets them pick which clipping assault they'll go for rather than bash their heads into the only thing in front of them like an armoured Guard battalion. What they are not is an easy army that's good at everything, which is good. That's the idea with E:A lists, they're themed around tighter approaches to war rather than one-upping one another. Codex Marines are mainly a fast air-drop assault force that exploits any opportunities they can find or create to win their objectives, not to pummel the enemy line to the ground wholesale.

While individual Tactical marines are not superheroic, with Epic generally aiming for more grounded depiction of various big baddies of the universe, Terminators certainly are. Especially ones that you can just teleport in your enemy's vulnerable rear areas...

All you said is better represented by the DeathWatch list, plus closer to the lore of being ultra elite.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Guess I’ll have to check that out!

Rules

https://epic-uk.co.uk/wp/rules/

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

First, I think we all kind of hope to see Epic revisit 40K. It’s a scale of battle most pleasing, and probably best reflects the sheer scale of conflict shown in the background.

Honestly? Not anymore, not really, for two reasons

1) LImps is... not the way I'd like them go, ignoring E:40k and E:A, which IMHO are much stronger games
2) If GW released it again, they'll crack down even harder anything at all that might look even similar, particularly all the Epic STL scene. No thank you.

As to the rest, that's basically how the Imperial faction worked back in E:40k. You had detachments of IG, titans, SMs, whatever else, and you brought it together.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

First, I think we all kind of hope to see Epic revisit 40K. It’s a scale of battle most pleasing, and probably best reflects the sheer scale of conflict shown in the background.

Honestly? Not anymore, not really, for two reasons

1) LImps is... not the way I'd like them go, ignoring E:40k and E:A, which IMHO are much stronger games
2) If GW released it again, they'll crack down even harder anything at all that might look even similar, particularly all the Epic STL scene. No thank you.

As to the rest, that's basically how the Imperial faction worked back in E:40k. You had detachments of IG, titans, SMs, whatever else, and you brought it together.

+1 to this.

The community for Epic already offers a ton of great resources. GW involvement would likely do more harm than good.