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Just be ready in case it's another "here's Kratos rules for 40k guys, it's totally usable in 40k haha" situation.

It would be nice if 11th Ed eased up a bit on strict model lines- Adding the HH custodes units to the codex and things like the plastic Cerastus knights would help, and if the Malestrom book has kitbash HQ models maybe they will start showing up again...

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
It would be nice if 11th Ed eased up a bit on strict model lines- Adding the HH custodes units to the codex and things like the plastic Cerastus knights would help, and if the Malestrom book has kitbash HQ models maybe they will start showing up again...

Here's the rub for me. The single thing from that whole show I'm most excited about is the make-your-own-hero rules from The Maelstrom, so I'm really hoping the whole thing can survive past... ::checks watch:: ...this summer.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
It would be nice if 11th Ed eased up a bit on strict model lines- Adding the HH custodes units to the codex and things like the plastic Cerastus knights would help, and if the Malestrom book has kitbash HQ models maybe they will start showing up again...

Here's the rub for me. The single thing from that whole show I'm most excited about is the make-your-own-hero rules from The Maelstrom, so I'm really hoping the whole thing can survive past... ::checks watch:: ...this summer.

Could be like AoS Path to Glory anvil of apotheosis. That’s a decent framework to build and grow custom characters.

IIRC they did a custom character thing in a prior edition, but it was just for open play, not matched.

Those Red Corsairs are HOT. I had some of the new EC on my to-buy list, but they might get bumped for those guys. Best renegade marines I've ever seen. I didn't see the stream, is there a separate Corsairs list in the books?

Eldar Corsairs are nice additions, too. Initially I though it was just a bad angle on Yriel, but I don't know what he's doing with his left arm. Using the shield part, i guess? I'd chop it off real quick. That Vyper, though. Fantastic.

Slimmer Custodes are nice updates on the sculpts.

This gives me hope, that Johan, the Sentient Cyclops Demolition Vehicle can finally command a regiment of Astra Militarum!

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
This gives me hope, that Johan, the Sentient Cyclops Demolition Vehicle can finally command a regiment of Astra Militarum!

Would fit right in with the Kreig.

Yeesh, I want those Eldar Corsairs so much, and I don't even play 40K any more.
I already have a Corsairs Kill Team. Maybe I'll pick up a box of the Skyreavers when they come out separately. I just wonder if they will be 5 or 10 per box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BorderCountess wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
It would be nice if 11th Ed eased up a bit on strict model lines- Adding the HH custodes units to the codex and things like the plastic Cerastus knights would help, and if the Malestrom book has kitbash HQ models maybe they will start showing up again...

Here's the rub for me. The single thing from that whole show I'm most excited about is the make-your-own-hero rules from The Maelstrom, so I'm really hoping the whole thing can survive past... ::checks watch:: ...this summer.

If they released those in epub, I would buy it in a heartbeat. I don't have room for more stinkin' box sets of books though.

The Power Cosmic wrote:Those Red Corsairs are HOT. I had some of the new EC on my to-buy list, but they might get bumped for those guys. Best renegade marines I've ever seen. I didn't see the stream, is there a separate Corsairs list in the books?

Eldar Corsairs are nice additions, too. Initially I though it was just a bad angle on Yriel, but I don't know what he's doing with his left arm. Using the shield part, i guess? I'd chop it off real quick. That Vyper, though. Fantastic.

Slimmer Custodes are nice updates on the sculpts.

There's a new book set, like the 500 Worlds, coming out too.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:
Yup, because only incels can dislike arbitrary change for the sake of change that adds nothing of value.

No, you can dislike them, but we all know a bunch of people who don't even follow, let alone, play, Warhammer are going to be making a lot of angry videos again.

Fairy nuff. That CriticalDrinker video a while ago was pretty embarassing, it sounded like the 40K version of Malcom Tucker trying to describe Star Wars in The Thick Of It

https://www.youtube.com SLASH watch?v=Cg-pnGFbwMQ - content warning spicy language.

Check the preview video comments, sort by new (or w/e, all in the same ballpark whatever the order) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjJuAQqXD6U

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:
Yup, because only incels can dislike arbitrary change for the sake of change that adds nothing of value.

No, you can dislike them, but we all know a bunch of people who don't even follow, let alone, play, Warhammer are going to be making a lot of angry videos again.

Fairy nuff. That CriticalDrinker video a while ago was pretty embarassing, it sounded like the 40K version of Malcom Tucker trying to describe Star Wars in The Thick Of It

https://www.youtube.com SLASH watch?v=Cg-pnGFbwMQ - content warning spicy language.

Gw had almost 40 years to say that custodes genetics worked like marines and precluded women, but they never did.

At most you can say they had a tradition of recruiting males. Which is less restrictive than the law that makes sisters all women and can be changed at a moment's notice.

But this idea that gw have had custodes being gene restricted to only be male is a big assumption fans have made in the gap where any actual information could be. They were never described as space marines and those are the only genetics in the imperium that has been explicitly locked to men only. And assassin's have been engineering women for over 30 years, so it's not like the imperium has a male only genetics program.

So arguments about arbitrary changes are far less definitive than people like to make it seem

I'm impressed at the volume of new sculpts today revealed across all game systems. Combine all that with the skitarii, myradoms, and vultarax kits, it's a cornucopia of new kits.

 Hellebore wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:
Yup, because only incels can dislike arbitrary change for the sake of change that adds nothing of value.

No, you can dislike them, but we all know a bunch of people who don't even follow, let alone, play, Warhammer are going to be making a lot of angry videos again.

Fairy nuff. That CriticalDrinker video a while ago was pretty embarassing, it sounded like the 40K version of Malcom Tucker trying to describe Star Wars in The Thick Of It

https://www.youtube.com SLASH watch?v=Cg-pnGFbwMQ - content warning spicy language.

Gw had almost 40 years to say that custodes genetics worked like marines and precluded women, but they never did.

At most you can say they had a tradition of recruiting males. Which is less restrictive than the law that makes sisters all women and can be changed at a moment's notice.

But this idea that gw have had custodes being gene restricted to only be male is a big assumption fans have made in the gap where any actual information could be. They were never described as space marines and those are the only genetics in the imperium that has been explicitly locked to men only. And assassin's have. Ren engineering women for over 30 years, so it's not like the imperium has a male only genetics program.

So arguments about arbitrary changes are far less definitive than people like to make it seem

I don't agree obviously. I think if something has been described exclusively in one way for their entire existence without any ambiguity - I've certainly never seen a situation in the fluff prior to the retcon where there was any doubt on the matter - then clearly a change is being made, and given that it's not being made for any in-setting reason then I think it also can be fairly described as arbitrary. I think it's a bit dishonest to try and frame things as if there is any in-setting reasoning at play when we all know the reality - previously the idea that a warrior society would be male-only was uncontroversial IRL - in much the same way the notion that a warrior society might be female-only was uncontroversial, though that's apparently still fine... - now some people believe it should be, and evidently people with that opinion now hold some sway over decisionmaking at GW.

Honestly what grinds my gears about the whole thing is the gaslighting of it all. There was a way to do this that would have been uncontroversial with everyone bar the previously mentioned outrage merchants; focus on the Sisters of Silence in the here and now, who dearly actually need proper model support in a way Custodes simply did not, and then when Age of Darkness transitions over to The Scouring as I'm pretty sure everyone now accepts it will at some point in the next few years they could have come out with a bunch of new fluff about the losses during the Heresy necessitating a change to the longstanding tradition of recruiting only the sons of the Terran nobility because they had to manufacture so many Custodes at once that there simply weren't enough suitable "recruits" available. And that a largely uncontroversial option exists and is so blindingly obvious that even a dipper like myself can see it makes me believe that the controversy is the point at least in part.

Its only potentially deceptive if your premise is true and I've yet to see a quote from any book that says the custodes are genetically restricted to being men. Not one.

I was just looking at the entry for them in the RT Rulebook and not only does it not say that, it didn't even use gendered terms to describe them. Calling them warriors and inner guard. Their inception doesn't gender lock them.

Therefore anything after that is a retcon. Which makes this AT MOST an undoing of any subsequent retcons - of which the only one anyone has been able to show me is from their last codex where it says they were recruited from the sons of nobles, just like they describe the men of the guard, the imperium of man and every other such instance of man being used in a gender neutral way.

You are entitled to your opion and free to not like it. But that has no bearing on the facts. And calling it gaslighting is a gross misuse of a term that was specifically used to highlight real issues of emotional abuse by intimate partners.


EDIT; according to the information in the 2nd ed codex imperialis, they aren't gendered their either, but they do have 300 companions that guard the emperor directly. You are free to decide that your version of them started at some arbitrary point after 2000, where you decided that they had to be exclusively men, but you dont get to claim that's their original form or that it's any kind of retcon when your preferred version is itself a retcon.

EDIT EDIT: just looked at the Horus heresy book 7 inferno by Alan Bligh from 2017, the magnum opus everyone crows over. You will never guess but in the section on the creation of the custodes he managed to avoid using
Any gendered pronouns whatsoever when describing them, only using child to refer to their recruits. Also going on in some length to show how different from astartes their creation is. It is actually quite remarkable that a 9 year old book managed to talk about their creation without saying they must be men or only works on men.

Good high effort rationalisation there but what explains the 30 year absence from all lore and product? Oversight?

Oh goody, the alerts panel is flashing and screaming at me again, kindly take all that discussion to a thread of its own.

Same reason Dorn Tanks weren't in early books and Alpharius was referred to in the singular as a Primarch.

Being male only is not and was not a core element of the Custodes faction identity. Space Marines have a ton of geneseed enhancements and Sisters were created as a loophole for "no men under arms" but Custodes have always been the elite private guardians of the Emperor.

JWBS wrote:
Good high effort rationalisation there but what explains the 30 year absence from all lore and product? Oversight?

ADB posted publically on this a while ago to explain that there was a GW mandate from on high preventing authors from writing lore about female custodes, because that is what the official model range supported at the time. GW generally don't like BL authors writing about things they don't plan to sell. That's the Doylist explanation for the change anyway.

It also seems obvious to point out, but Custodes also didn't have any products for much of that 30+ year period. It's only after GW got around to making the original talons of the emperor box that they began fleshing out the minimal existing lore. And like many other Warhammer factions, that expanded lore has since gone through some iteration.

 Hellebore wrote:
Its only potentially deceptive if your premise is true and I've yet to see a quote from any book that says the custodes are genetically restricted to being men. Not one.

I was just looking at the entry for them in the RT Rulebook and not only does it not say that, it didn't even use gendered terms to describe them. Calling them warriors and inner guard. Their inception doesn't gender lock them.

Therefore anything after that is a retcon. Which makes this AT MOST an undoing of any subsequent retcons - of which the only one anyone has been able to show me is from their last codex where it says they were recruited from the sons of nobles, just like they describe the men of the guard, the imperium of man and every other such instance of man being used in a gender neutral way.

While the 8E codex was in print Custodes were implicitly (but not explicitly) male. At the time it would be reasonable to infer female custodes didn't exist. Fun fact, GW actually deliberately removed all the gendered pronouns for the 9E Custodes codex, but nobody noticed at the time. It was only when 10E rolled around that they decided to spell things out.
It's true that they never spelled out "all Custodes are men", it was just heavily implied for a couple of years out of the last few decades. So I would say that it is a retcon, but also a relatively small one.

However for anyone still struggling with this adjustment I do have a question. 40k has seen soooo many retcons of various shapes & sizes over the years, and many had more impact than this.

At one point there was no Rogal Dorn, but then they had Always Been There.
At one point there were no Necrons, but then Necrons had Always Been There for millions of years.
The Horus Heresy product range is a constant cycle of troops, weapons, and wargear that were never mentioned before but suddenly had Always Been There.

Why is this (largely cosmetic) retcon in particular an issue?

JWBS wrote:
Good high effort rationalisation there but what explains the 30 year absence from all lore and product? Oversight?

What explains the absence of "always existed" Rogal Dorn tanks in the old fluff?

This is just how GW does things. They avoid mentioning stuff that could have models but don't, but once the models are made the thing has "always existed." There is nothing new or controversial about this, except certain people freak out about this like they do not about thousands of similar instances. Thus it is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is not actually motivated by dedication to the lore purity but rather by more unsavoury reasons.

Do I need to the subject equivalent of Tap The Sign, and share an image of the original, Rogue Trader Custards?

Because if you complain about Custodes now being created from male and female candidates? You’ve surely no basis for also not complaining that they’re now clad in Auramite and not Posing Pouches and Lycra, yeah?

Yeah?

Disingenuous to frame it as being in the same category as any other common or garden retcon. Whether you like it or not it was a hot button issue, there was never a vicious pro / anti-auramite argument, there weren't any social media campaigns pushing for an auramite update to bring the hobby inline with the expectations of a modern audience, quite bad faith to argue it that way.

(so no).

The problem with female custtodes is that they look terrible imo. Mixing these big bulky bodies with a feminine face just dont work.

There was a social media campaign for female custodes?

JWBS wrote:
Disingenuous to frame it as being in the same category as any other common or garden retcon. Whether you like it or not it was a hot button issue, there was never a vicious pro / anti-auramite argument, there weren't any social media campaigns pushing for an auramite update to bring the hobby inline with the expectations of a modern audience, quite bad faith to argue it that way.

(so no).

So…..why is changing from Elven Type Masques, tight Lycra strides, posing pouch and a rather dashing off the shoulder cloak to Massive Suits Of Massively Embellished Armour just fine. But some of those inside said massive suits of massively embellished armour possibly having tits bad?

Because the weirdos lost their mind when a tract of flavour text first mentioned a Custodes that originated as a female human. That’s what started it. No social media campaign. A tract of text.

If you really want to play this game? Buckle up, because I can happily go grab my Rogue Trader book and start gutting the game and setting as we know it, by demanding the erasure of each and every single change ever made. And I’ll keep doing it until you start feeling a bit silly.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Was there ever an image or description of Pertubaro as a daemon prince?

He's described slightly in the Storm of Iron Collector's Edition bookend short story:

"Even before his elevation to daemonhood, the primarch had been colossal, but now he was a giant plated in silver and steel, encased in armour that was more a fortified sarcophagus than anything wrought for a living being. Edged in yellow and black, scarred from ten thousand wars and seamed with weld-line like scars, it was known as the Logos, its textures strangely alive, like a skin of metal and flesh combined.

Perturabo, the Lord of Iron himself.

He went without helm, his head a nightmare of pallid, dead flesh, necrotic and bleached of colour - like a corpse dragged from a depthless ocean trench. Thick cords of ribbed cabling pierced his skull, running back across his scalp in hissing cornrows. Eyes that were gimlet black, yet lit from within by the coldest light, stared out from a face that had known only bitter disappointment and had been cursed by inevitable betrayal."

I wouldn't expect GW to stick closely to any previous description Perturabo anyway - the Silent King diverged significantly from the relatively detailed description he had before his model, for example.

Yet, we’ve seen the 40K Daemon Primarchs echo the appearance of their Heresy Models.

Twisted and modified? Yes. But still recognisable as what they once were.

Likewise Heresy Daemon Prince Fulgrim and now Angron stand as recognisable intermediaries.

I see no reason Perturabo would break that approach.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet, we’ve seen the 40K Daemon Primarchs echo the appearance of their Heresy Models.

Twisted and modified? Yes. But still recognisable as what they once were.

Likewise Heresy Daemon Prince Fulgrim and now Angron stand as recognisable intermediaries.

I see no reason Perturabo would break that approach.

We have quite a different definition of them echoing their appareance. Yes they have somme similarities, but the end result is pretty much unrecognisable (Fulgrim is a snake man FFS).

Im asking cause i've seen a few speculations that Perturabo is going to be a Defiler-like

As well, the Logos is such an iconic part of Perturabo's aesthetic, would be really weird not to include it on a 40K version.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
There was a social media campaign for female custodes?

I don't think so? I'm pretty indifferent to this entire situation, but blatant and possible inflammatory retcons without offering an explanation seems kind of weird on the part of the GW. I read the little QA news blurb on WarCom and they didn't seem answer why.

Was it for inclusion purposes when women are already prominently featured in the Warhammer universes? Was it pressure from a progressive activist within GW who just wanted to "own the chuds"? Or maybe something to do with this whole Amazon production?

I suspect it'll be like the whole Cursed City incident and we'll just never know.