Next Space Marine Codex Rumors

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**CaptainLoken**

I have really enjoyed the stuff on the next Chaos Codex thread, but I saw some posts about a new Space Marine Codex in there as well. I was just wondering what people have heard. Please feel free to post.

**goblinmedics**

Heard that it's in the works, but we've got another year or two.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Is Codex SM Redux the next SM codex? We know BAs are a way away, no Space Wolfs?

Of course obviously we still have codex Bad Space Marines v5 but no Good Space Marines?

**Moopy**

After doing BT, DA, and BA, there's no way they won't nerf SW too. Don't worry, just give it time, just take solice that they're nerfing every armies choices/ability to be customized equally.

While I haven't heard of anything about SM: Redux, I can make these predictions:

Most options to take skills will go away.
Most options to take wargear for your Vet. Sgts (other than 2-3 options) will go away.
At most 2 speeders in a squad will be able to take AC. Expect their prices to go up.
Expect Scout Bikes to disappear.
Expect scouts to go to elite choices. This is silly as scouts aren't full marines yet.
Extra armor will go from 5 pts to 15pts.
Rhinos to go down in prices and drop pods to go up in price.
Combat squads for the majority of your choices. Thanks to this it will be really hard to get your IC to the front lines unless you take a JP, Land raider/ LRC, razorback, or a half full rhino or a half full drop pod. Some named IC will not let you take a JP so your choices are even more limited.
Crusader will probably go to 250 pts.
Terminators will have only 1 heavy weapon option.
Plamsa weapons will go up in price.
Jump packers will be able to drop their jump packs for a free transport (rhino/dp). Too bad on you if you want to take the packless assaulters and put them in a LR/LRC since your paying for those jump packs and will loose those points if you do this.

I make these predictions after what's happened to the DA and BA. I have no idea if they will keep

**Moopy**

Stupid return button... stupid "Critical Error" if you try and edit your posts. >

... keep the trait systems.

**Pariah Press**

From what I can tell, there is no concrete information on Space Marines Redux because they haven't even started on it yet. I've heard that they are planning to eventually release a new Codex, presumably before 5th edition. All else is baseless rumor and hearsay.

**Destrado**

I can't find the exact post in Warseer, but Gav Thorpe compared these rumours of a SM Redux to "pulling someone's leg".

**Stu-Rat**

True, but didn't Jervis Johnson confirm Redux at Adepticon? Not that the two are mutally exclusive, of course.

**dietrich**

Jervis made the comment at Adepticon that they hadn't decided if the SM codex redux will be Codex: Space Marines (which requires some variety since not all of the 1,000 chapters are 'codex chapters') or if it will be Codex: Ultramarines (or as I like to call it, Codex: Codex Marines) which would feature combat squads, 1 heavy weapon per termie squad, etc. If the release schedule is Chaos Marines, Chaos, and Orks (or maybe CM, Orks, Chaos) - that covers a year's time, so Redux would be fall 08 at the earliest.

**two heads talking**

Posted By Moopy on 05/28/2007 10:19 PM
After doing BT, DA, and BA, there's no way they won't nerf SW too. Don't worry, just give it time, just take solice that they're nerfing every armies choices/ability to be customized equally.

While I haven't heard of anything about SM: Redux, I can make these predictions:

Most options to take skills will go away.
Most options to take wargear for your Vet. Sgts (other than 2-3 options) will go away.
At most 2 speeders in a squad will be able to take AC. Expect their prices to go up.
Expect Scout Bikes to disappear.
Expect scouts to go to elite choices. This is silly as scouts aren't full marines yet.
Extra armor will go from 5 pts to 15pts.
Rhinos to go down in prices and drop pods to go up in price.
Combat squads for the majority of your choices. Thanks to this it will be really hard to get your IC to the front lines unless you take a JP, Land raider/ LRC, razorback, or a half full rhino or a half full drop pod. Some named IC will not let you take a JP so your choices are even more limited.
Crusader will probably go to 250 pts.
Terminators will have only 1 heavy weapon option.
Plamsa weapons will go up in price.
Jump packers will be able to drop their jump packs for a free transport (rhino/dp). Too bad on you if you want to take the packless assaulters and put them in a LR/LRC since your paying for those jump packs and will loose those points if you do this.

I make these predictions after what's happened to the DA and BA. I have no idea if they will keep

making scout an elite choice does not necessarily mean they are elite units, but rather that their availablity is the same as elite choices and thus less likely to be added to your army.. also by making them elites, if you take a unit or two you also limit what ever else you can take in that choice again, reminding all that certain unit choices are not the standard unit sent to battle, but a unit that is less readily availabe.. space marines don't sent 100's of scouts, but they do send in 100's of space marines and some scouts end up going as well..

anyways, it's also a way to control min/max..

**Pariah Press**

Yeah, those all-scout armies were winning too many tournaments!

**stonefox**

Maybe to prevent another version of the Lysander terminator bomb using scouts with beacons.

**Stu-Rat**

Posted By dietrich on 05/29/2007 6:40 AM
Jervis made the comment at Adepticon that they hadn't decided if the SM codex redux will be Codex: Space Marines (which requires some variety since not all of the 1,000 chapters are 'codex chapters') or if it will be Codex: Ultramarines (or as I like to call it, Codex: Codex Marines) which would feature combat squads, 1 heavy weapon per termie squad, etc. If the release schedule is Chaos Marines, Chaos, and Orks (or maybe CM, Orks, Chaos) - that covers a year's time, so Redux would be fall 08 at the earliest.

"Finally, he [Jervis] also commented that the SM codex was considered a failure within the company because as the codex most commonly purchased by new players, it fails to properly introduce them into the hobby (as it doesn't have the weapon diagrams like the new DA codex does). That gives GW a reason to 'fast track' a new version of the codex into production. When and if this new SM codex is released Jervis said that it will likely incorporate many of the new concepts found within the DA codex."

Yakface's words (my emphasis), taken from here: www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/view/topic/forumid/6/postid/153659/Default.aspx

Sounds very different to what you are thinking. Although neither argument is conclusive or exclusive.

**Tribune**

Paraphrasing shamelessly: SM codex to be fast-tracked because the current one doesn't have enough priddy piccies of guns?

Now I've heard it all.

**Toreador**

No because it is a failure for what they want. Got it out over the wekend to browse through it again. I remember again why the doctrine system is so horrible.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Maybe to prevent another version of the Lysander terminator bomb using scouts with beacons.

Yeah, because everyone knows the power of the Lysanderwing is due to the game-breaking cheese that is the space marine scout.

**Frazzled**

Posted By Toreador on 05/29/2007 12:49 PM
No because it is a failure for what they want. Got it out over the wekend to browse through it again. I remember again why the doctrine system is so horrible.

IE pics of "wargear?"

Funny it wasn't the doctrines I hear people complaining about.

**Hellfury**

Posted By stonefox on 05/29/2007 11:24 AM
Maybe to prevent another version of the Lysander terminator bomb using scouts with beacons.

I dont now about that. Scouts arent getting beacons anymore it seems, in fact not much gets beacons if at all. If scouts cant be equipped with homers in the DA or BA lists, I dont see how that is preventative of making lysander like lists.

Moving scouts to elites equals GW making even less money on scout than they already are.

A move that make little sense.

**Hellfury**

Posted By Stu-Rat on 05/29/2007 12:14 PM

Posted By dietrich on 05/29/2007 6:40 AM
Jervis made the comment at Adepticon that they hadn't decided if the SM codex redux will be Codex: Space Marines (which requires some variety since not all of the 1,000 chapters are 'codex chapters') or if it will be Codex: Ultramarines (or as I like to call it, Codex: Codex Marines) which would feature combat squads, 1 heavy weapon per termie squad, etc. If the release schedule is Chaos Marines, Chaos, and Orks (or maybe CM, Orks, Chaos) - that covers a year's time, so Redux would be fall 08 at the earliest.

"Finally, he [Jervis] also commented that the SM codex was considered a failure within the company because as the codex most commonly purchased by new players, it fails to properly introduce them into the hobby (as it doesn't have the weapon diagrams like the new DA codex does). That gives GW a reason to 'fast track' a new version of the codex into production. When and if this new SM codex is released Jervis said that it will likely incorporate many of the new concepts found within the DA codex."

Yakface's words (my emphasis), taken from here: www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/view/topic/forumid/6/postid/153659/Default.aspx

Sounds very different to what you are thinking. Although neither argument is conclusive or exclusive.

Which is bollocks because the SM codex plainly lists what units look like, what weapons look like better than any other codex made yet. The imperial weapons diagrams are plainly shown in the rulebook. if you dont have that, you arent playing...

Nope, I am not falling for it. This is a blatant attempt to change rules and double up on cash made from marines in the same edition.

If they want to do that so badly, they could have easily made sublists to make people happy. but they arent going to do that because of balance reasons.

The next year or so will be very interesting to see what GW does to pull itself out of the gutter. I hope they do better than the excuses Jervis made.

**Green Bloater**

"Heard that it's in the works, but we've got another year or two."

In one to two years the fifth edition of 40k will be released. So probably what you are thinking of as a redux will be the first fifth edition codex. By then we Space Marine players will know how to fully exploit combat squads.

And yes I hear many things too, such as the sky is falling... poor poor Henny Penny!

- Greenie

**Asmodai**

It'll be interesting to see. Chaos and Space Marines are the too most popular armies, so any attempt to 'fix' the rules needs to begin there (and of course the main rulebook).

I'd like to see Ultramarines given a separate book - they have at least as many unique units and Dark Angels (Deathwing and Ravenwing) and Blood Angels (Baal Predators, Death Company) with Tyrannic War Veterans and Honor Guard.

The upshot is that removing the Ultramarines from the Space Marines book would give the space to add the other Chapters in - following the current trend, each will probably get a unique veteran skills (White Scars get Expert Riders, Imperial Fists get Lysander and Tank Hunters on Dev and maybe Tac, Ravenguard get Infiltrate, etc.).

**CaptainLoken**

Posted By Toreador on 05/29/2007 12:49 PM
No because it is a failure for what they want. Got it out over the wekend to browse through it again. I remember again why the doctrine system is so horrible.

Are you talking about the Chapter Trait System? I, for one, really like the Trait System. I could see something like this in a Chaos Codex. It would limit the cheese, as you have to give something up in order to get something else. You could use it to represent the different Cult Legions, as well as other Renegade armies. No need for special rules because, just like the Space Marine Codex, each faction/cult could be explained in a "trait" like system.

I do understand your concerns with game balance, but I feel like there is balance in the Trait System. Now, there are those that take certain Flaws that really don't hinder their army, such as Eye To Eye. I have no desire to purchase ANY Land Speeders, so is this a limitation for me? Sure it is, as I now only have access to Assault Marines, Bikes, and Transports in order to cross the game boad quickly. Transports just plain suck. That leaves Assault Marines and Bikes. Assault Marines are great, but can be brought down without a great deal of effort. Bikes are tougher, but can still be brought down by standard troop types. So, I have a Chapter Flaw that really DOES limit my army's abilities. Balance.

Have Pride in your Colors, We Stand Alone, and Death Before Dishonor can be a little weak, but you only get 1 small advantage for selecting them. Advantages that you have to pay for no less. It's not that bad.

I don't mind the the loss of an Assault Cannon in a Terminator squad as much as everyone else seems to. Are Terminator squads not powerful enough?

**commisar-Kaine**

aww, poor marines are getting nerfed....

poor powergamers

**Moopy**

Again: I'm forcasting what I've seen happen to the subchappters will mostly happen to the main one.

x2 Heads talking: If you REALLY want to limit scouts make them 0-2 in the troop choices. They have NO business being the elite section. That takes care of your too-many-scouts problem AND puts them where they belong. I really don't see how hard it is for the designers to do this.

**H.B.M.C.**

Posted By commisar-Kaine on 05/29/2007 10:17 PM
aww, poor marines are getting nerfed....

poor powergamers

What an unbelievably naive and ignorant statement.

The Marine codex is probably the most balanced Codex in 40K. Virtually everything in it is useful in some way, with very little 'fat' or 'waste'. Somethings are overpowered, as they always will be as GW has to buff their new plastic kits to sell them, and the Traits System is a complete mess, but the Codex is a good example of how to write rules by GW.

Now like their recent attempts with Codex: No Options and Codex: Falcon Grav-Tanks.

Furthermore, to touch on the naive nature of your statement Kaine, the people here are not lamenting a loss of power in the Marine list, they're lamenting a loss of options. People are going to have models and combinations that simply aren't legal when the new 'Dex hits (Terminators and Combat Squads being the two main culprits of this), combined with a very restricted Wargear section... or simply no Wargear section as seems to be the trend. Everyone's worried about that, not about losing power.

BYE

**Moopy**

c-kaine. Just wait till your codex get nerfed. We'll save our crocodile tears for you.

**puree**

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/30/2007 12:59 AM

Posted By commisar-Kaine on 05/29/2007 10:17 PM
aww, poor marines are getting nerfed....

poor powergamers
What an unbelievably naive and ignorant statement.

The Marine codex is probably the most balanced Codex in 40K. Virtually everything in it is useful in some way, with very little 'fat' or 'waste'. Somethings are overpowered, as they always will be as GW has to buff their new plastic kits to sell them, and the Traits System is a complete mess, but the Codex is a good example of how to write rules by GW.

Now like their recent attempts with Codex: No Options and Codex: Falcon Grav-Tanks.

Furthermore, to touch on the naive nature of your statement Kaine, the people here are not lamenting a loss of power in the Marine list, they're lamenting a loss of options. People are going to have models and combinations that simply aren't legal when the new 'Dex hits (Terminators and Combat Squads being the two main culprits of this), combined with a very restricted Wargear section... or simply no Wargear section as seems to be the trend. Everyone's worried about that, not about losing power.

BYE

Balance usually implies a comparison with something else - what are you comparing it with?

It may be that units within the codex are balanced against other units in the same codex, but that doesn't necessarily mean the codex itself is balanced against other codices.

**Da Boss**

If they release a codex ultramarines...won't that mean...
...
There will be...
*takes a deep breath*
SIX EDITED MARINE CODICES!
How many flavours of vanilla do you *fudge*ing want?
Graaaagh.
So. Angry. At. Prospect.
If the edition changes in two years I will be furious.

**Stu-Rat**

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/30/2007 12:59 AM
Furthermore, to touch on the naive nature of your statement Kaine, the people here are not lamenting a loss of power in the Marine list, they're lamenting a loss of options. People are going to have models and combinations that simply aren't legal when the new 'Dex hits (Terminators and Combat Squads being the two main culprits of this), combined with a very restricted Wargear section... or simply no Wargear section as seems to be the trend. Everyone's worried about that, not about losing power.

Agreed. Although I'd also add that our frustration and annoyance is compounded by the fact that not only are the options being stripped away and thus our armies being made illegal, but GW is also lying to our faces while doing so.

It's no surprise, unfortunately. It's their usual lack of customer service/sales technique.

Insisting on calling 40k 3.5 "4th edition" is one thing. Telling us continually the obvious untruth that "...all the hard work and effort you have sunk into your modelling, converting and collecting projects has not, in any way, been a waste of time." is downright insulting.

**Frazzled**

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/30/2007 12:59 AM

Posted By commisar-Kaine on 05/29/2007 10:17 PM
aww, poor marines are getting nerfed....

poor powergamers
What an unbelievably naive and ignorant statement.

The Marine codex is probably the most balanced Codex in 40K. Virtually everything in it is useful in some way, with very little 'fat' or 'waste'. Somethings are overpowered, as they always will be as GW has to buff their new plastic kits to sell them, and the Traits System is a complete mess, but the Codex is a good example of how to write rules by GW.

Respectfully, I'd disagree with that to an extent. There are multiple no brainer choices-assault cannons vs. cyclone or heavy flamers, assault cannon vs. non assault cannon speeders, dreads with assault cannons.

Having said that I really like the marine codex (second in favorite to the chaos codex). With minor tweaks to the trait system (stronger negatives or priced as needed) and an adjustment to the A cannon (or even institution of some fo the DA limitations) then the codex would be excellent. I can see absolutely no reason for this shift to vanilla only. The DA limits could be imported (a cannon limit to termies and speeders, cheaper rhino that sort of thing) but there's no reason at all to knock out the trait system.

Frankly this "return to early V3" methodology strikes me as boring. Not better, not worse, just boring.