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Going through my "goal" theory hammer list, it looks like I was mostly right in my predicitons:  http://www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/18/postid/199687/view/topic/tpage/2/Default.aspx

HQ
Warboss on Bike
Bike, Power Klaw, Cybork Body, Attack Squig

Elites
13 Lootas
12 Lootas

Troops
20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

Fast
20 Storm Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw

1500 Points

There are some things you can do to switch it up.  Killa Kanz could replace lootas, I'd arm them with Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, and Kustom Mega Blastas and put them in 3 mobs of 2. 

Mek's with KFF's just don't seem completely worth it, and having the monster of the Boss On Bike, being a very threatening "strike almost anywhere" CC unit seems useful.

This is just my first impressions of building the kind of list to take to an RTT or a Games Day tourney.  I may tune it out some more, but this is what stands out right away as an optimized list.

have you got the new book? guessing you do since the prices are correct, although I find it hard to believe since you seem to be ignoring a lot of the cool (and powerful) stuff that's now available. have you seen the new deffkoptas? or what snikkrot can do? it looks like a really boring list. mix it up and make it a little less one dimensional. have you considered 'ardboys in a trukk, or trukks in general? they're pretty sweet for what they do.

Deffkoptas look decent, but they're a lot of points for not a whole lot of bang. I mean they're S6 powerklaws that can get a turn 1 charge, but they're EXPENSIVE kitted that way. Sure you can hide one in a unit, but it's not going to work in escalation and if you don't go first they can be hosed. They may be decent, but not optimal I think.

Snikkrot is expensive, doesn't ignore armor saves, and then they can't take a PK Nob. He's problematic for the same reason Zaagstruk is. The main strength is the PK Nob, lose that and they're just not all that appealing.

Trukks also look nice. I'm considering a KoS style army, but I think the horde will work out better, mainly because of Mech Tau and Mech Eldar. Skimmer lists will be a problem. Still though, if I really wanted a fast CC army, I think maxing out on Storm Boyz is the way to go instead of Trukks, which I'm also considering for a list.

That all said, there are 126 Orks in this list.  How many 1500 Point armies can kill 126 Orks in 6 Turns? 

The only problem is a double monolith list since only power claws can hurt the AV14. That being said, it is the problem any New Ork list will have.

Anyway, how many doube 'lith lists will you see at 1500? Few.

Man, I can't wait to play my guard against the Ladz!

Warboss says "Hi" to the Lith. He's got 7 Attacks on the Charge with a S10 PK. Nobz get 5 Attacks on the charge with a S9 PK. My list has got fast moving PK's in the boss and Storm Boyz. I see being able to catch the lith and nail it.

Sure there are lists that will be hard. Mech Tau will hurt if the player knows what he's doing, but I think that this will screw over Zillas & Mech Eldar, especially at 1500 points.

Personally, one of the strengths I see in the ork codex is the ability to flood the force org chart with scoring units. If you have an empty fast slot, a warbuggy or a death kopta should be in it. Objectives have become so central to most missions that cheap fast scoring units are a huge game winning ally.

To a lesser extent, same goes for Heavy support and single scoring Big guns. They go away if someone sneezes on them, but they can spend all day behind a piece of terrain and contest an entire quadrant. Try this on for size:

HQ
Warboss on Bike
Bike, Power Klaw, Cybork Body, Attack Squig

Elites
10 Lootas
10 Lootas

Troops
20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

20 Shoota Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw, 2 Rokkits

Fast
16 Storm Boyz
Nob, Power Klaw

Warbuggy

Death Kopta

Heavy Support:

Lobba

Lobba

1497 Points

Shoota Boyz Mobs cannot get Nobs with Power Klaws. 

I definitely think the Big Mek is worth it. Let's face it. People are going to shoot you. The KFF essentially adds 1/3 more Orks to your army. That's like 500pts extra! Especially since yours is mostly foot slogging. Ok, 500pts is a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

Maybe I'm just too irrationaly in love with KFFs...after the one time a submunition wounded 11 Boyz, and the KFF saved 9 of them...

Zoned

deadshane - what are you talking about? they can in the old book and they can in the new one

to the op - get a big mek with a shokk attack gun. please.

 

 

See what I mean by it in the news section under the "ork codex leaked" thread.

....its sort of the same thing as the old "bolt pistols cant shoot and charge because the model also carries a boltgun" claim.  RAW may well interpret that Nobs in shoota units cannot have power klaws.

I've removed all the points values from this thread. Please refrain from using actual points values in posts until the codex is legally released.

I'm personally thinking that Bosspoles are almost mandatory in Ork units, but especially so in Trukk mounted or other smaller units (less than 15 Orks).

This is because there has been a dramatic reduction in the effectiveness of the Orks' morale abilities. Before you'd get two tests: one on the Ld of the unit and then if that test failed you'd get a second shot on the size check for the unit. Also, you could buy +1Ld for your Nobs (in the form of Big Horns/Iron Gob) that would give you a better chance at passing that first test. And even then if you failed the unit could mob up with other units and keep fighting.


Now, (if the mob is below 11 models) you just get a single, normal morale test and if you just fail it. You can use the Mob's size as your Ld if its better than their base Ld of 7, but no matter how you look at it once you start making morale checks there's a decent chance your mob is already under 50% (if we're talking about those bigger footslogging units) and if you fail the morale check that's going to be it for the unit for the game! Worse still, if you're failing that morale check in combat you are almost assuredly going to have that unit rundown with the Ork's palty I2.

And watching a unit spend the rest of the game fall back (or get run down) is particularly painful since the last few models will certainly be the potent ones: The Nob with the claw and the Heavy Weapons for the unit.

I think the extra few points to get a re-roll on your morale test (when you need it) is absolutely worth it especially considering that it can be used when your mob is still 8-10 Orks strong and you get an unlucky morale roll.


Yep I will definitely be giving all my Nobs a bosspole to start with and then, after some testing, I may drop them out of the bigger (20+ Ork units) but it may just be the type of upgrade that is a good bet for every unit.

You have no reliable way of dropping down the Falcons, so you shouldn't be talking about screwing the Mech Eldar. You'll produce a tough game for sure, but the list doesn't have any more firepower than the usual Chaos and SM armies that tri-Falcon Eldar have to deal with. If you know anything about mech Eldar it's the fact that usually even if everything else in the Eldar army has been traded off to enemy units and sacrificed, as long as the Falcons are mobile at the end of the game the Eldar player will atleast get a draw out of it.

So how will Eldar play against that army? Take out everything that is VP heavy, meaning the Boss, the Lootas and the Stormboyz. Tyranids on the other hand need two dual Devourer Hive Tyrants plus the usual suspects to do well. A Hive Tyrant killing ten or eleven Stormboyz per turn in the shooting phase alone should be enough to keep you from writing off the Tyranids like you just did. We're simply talking about another reasonably balanced matchup.

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 1:16 AM

but I think that this will screw over Zillas & Mech Eldar, especially at 1500 points.

You have no reliable way of dropping down the Falcons, so you shouldn't be talking about screwing the Mech Eldar. You'll produce a tough game for sure, but the list doesn't have any more firepower than the usual Chaos and SM armies that tri-Falcon Eldar have to deal with. If you know anything about mech Eldar it's the fact that usually even if everything else in the Eldar army has been traded off to enemy units and sacrificed, as long as the Falcons are mobile at the end of the game the Eldar player will atleast get a draw out of it.

So how will Eldar play against that army? Take out everything that is VP heavy, meaning the Boss, the Lootas and the Stormboyz. Tyranids on the other hand need two dual Devourer Hive Tyrants plus the usual suspects to do well. A Hive Tyrant killing ten or eleven Stormboyz per turn in the shooting phase alone should be enough to keep you from writing off the Tyranids like you just did. We're simply talking about another reasonably balanced matchup.

Zilla Nids
Their Elite Fex's should go down before my Storm Boyz, at least at 1500 points anyway.  Sure concentrated devourer fire can take down 20 Boyz (a Dakka Fex kills 5 on average), but that's assuming you get the LOS on them.  I can't see putting the Storm Boyz anywhere where there isn't a decent amount of cover to advance under, with movement of 13-18" they should be able to manuver around the Fex's and get their charge off, and once they're into the line of fex's I think they should be able to clean up.  Likewise the Boss on Bike can try and break through to get into CC using his IC status.  If the Tyrants are running around with 2x Devourers, then they're not that bad vs. the Boss in assault.  Sure the Boss will die eventually, but with 7 Attacks on the charge he should be able to take out 1-2 TMC's if played right.  Abusing his IC status should get him where he needs to go.    Additionally, DakkaFex's face a decent threat via Rokkits, Shoota Boyz, and Lootas, and once you're in devourer range, you're risking a Waaagh-Assault move from the big mobs.    And they're out ranged by the Boyz mobz Rokkits, who can try and walk out of devourer range of the big fex's to lure you in, while still hitting you with Rokkits and Lootas (who should do a decent job of putting wounds on Dakka Fex's).

Nothing is going to be an easy game vs. Zillas when played well, but at 1500 points they can't do the mass of gaunts as well and they are light on other support and mainly just go for the TMC count.  Plus when you add escallation into the mix things start to get much worse as it's less guns to put the hurt on the big mobs throughout the game.   My main reason for stating that the list will screw over Zillas is that they have to get within 18" to really do the damage.  Sure the Orks will take a hit, no question, but once they're close, and the Mobz are close enough to support eachother, they're getting into the dangerzone to get hit in CC where they will fold.   Even if they do the gaunt screen, that just means the Orks can get to the gaunts, assault and wipe them out and eventually catch the TMC's. 

Mech Eldar
Since you yourself even said that Mech Eldar will have to play for the Draw, I'd consider that screwing them over.  Necrons are the only other list out there that will really put those kinds of screws on Mech Eldar that people will field in a tournament, where if the Eldar player gets that matchup they face a draw or worse. 

The probelm is that they don't have the firepower to put down enough mobz, or even any.  Sure a Falcon can come out and shoot, put a dent in a Mob, but the Ork shooting is decent enough now that we should be able to keep 3 Falcons shaken, and Lootas can put out enough glances on Falcons to worry them about losing one.  At 1500 points where is the long range volume of shots going to come from in normal Mech Eldar armies that will get to the Lootas to stop them from putting glances on Grav Tanks the minute they're exposed?  At 1500 points all the armies I've seen (including ones you've posted) completely revolve around the Falcons and cargo.  Harlies and Dragons won't do enough damage to the Orks to matter.   You say they're going to go after the Storm Boyz and Lootas.  How?  Harlies won't catch them, Dragons shooting them won't do much, and the Boss should be protected from Harlies by speed and Dragons from using his IC status.    If the Ork deploys right, they'll have a hard time getting to the Lootas.  And if the Orks do manage to take down a Falcon, which it looks like is a decent possibilities with Lootas and Rokkits, things go down hill for the Mech Eldar player very quickly. 

No, neither matchup is an easy fight (but Mech Eldar should be easier than Zillas for the horde), but the army will present a challenge to those top two lists in ways most others can't manage. 

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/30/2007 8:49 PM
Shoota Boyz Mobs cannot get Nobs with Power Klaws. 

You wont make any friends of ork players by trying to convince them through shady wording they cant take nobs with power klaws.

plus deadshane's logic is skewed. you could conceivably reverse the order - upgrade to a nob, then replace all the choppas and sluggas with poweklaws, and avoid the mess he's talking about. anyway I guarantee there's gonna be shootamobs with klawnobs in the new codex

Posted By Recklessfable on 10/30/2007 6:59 PM

The only problem is a double monolith list since only power claws can hurt the AV14. That being said, it is the problem any New Ork list will have.

Anyway, how many doube 'lith lists will you see at 1500? Few.

Man, I can't wait to play my guard against the Ladz!

A double monolith list should make every enemy player smile..... every point of monolith on the table is less and less warriors that you have to kill to make the necrons phase out

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/31/2007 4:12 AM

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 1:16 AM

but I think that this will screw over Zillas & Mech Eldar, especially at 1500 points.

You have no reliable way of dropping down the Falcons, so you shouldn't be talking about screwing the Mech Eldar. You'll produce a tough game for sure, but the list doesn't have any more firepower than the usual Chaos and SM armies that tri-Falcon Eldar have to deal with. If you know anything about mech Eldar it's the fact that usually even if everything else in the Eldar army has been traded off to enemy units and sacrificed, as long as the Falcons are mobile at the end of the game the Eldar player will atleast get a draw out of it.

So how will Eldar play against that army? Take out everything that is VP heavy, meaning the Boss, the Lootas and the Stormboyz. Tyranids on the other hand need two dual Devourer Hive Tyrants plus the usual suspects to do well. A Hive Tyrant killing ten or eleven Stormboyz per turn in the shooting phase alone should be enough to keep you from writing off the Tyranids like you just did. We're simply talking about another reasonably balanced matchup.

Zilla Nids
Their Elite Fex's should go down before my Storm Boyz, at least at 1500 points anyway.  Sure concentrated devourer fire can take down 20 Boyz (a Dakka Fex kills 5 on average), but that's assuming you get the LOS on them.  I can't see putting the Storm Boyz anywhere where there isn't a decent amount of cover to advance under, with movement of 13-18" they should be able to manuver around the Fex's and get their charge off, and once they're into the line of fex's I think they should be able to clean up.  Likewise the Boss on Bike can try and break through to get into CC using his IC status.  If the Tyrants are running around with 2x Devourers, then they're not that bad vs. the Boss in assault.  Sure the Boss will die eventually, but with 7 Attacks on the charge he should be able to take out 1-2 TMC's if played right.  Abusing his IC status should get him where he needs to go.    Additionally, DakkaFex's face a decent threat via Rokkits, Shoota Boyz, and Lootas, and once you're in devourer range, you're risking a Waaagh-Assault move from the big mobs.    And they're out ranged by the Boyz mobz Rokkits, who can try and walk out of devourer range of the big fex's to lure you in, while still hitting you with Rokkits and Lootas (who should do a decent job of putting wounds on Dakka Fex's).

I agree that given some decent terrain placement and a small amount of good judgement, Storm Boyz should be able to charge Dakkafexes without getting shot by them. The fact that they roll to see what extra movement they get  as part of their basic movement means that you can see what roll first, and if doesn't appear to be enough to get you in charge range you can always just move them a short distance and keep them hidden behind cover another turn.

Stormboyz are definitely dangerous looking.

Posted By Angron on 10/31/2007 8:38 AM

Posted By Recklessfable on 10/30/2007 6:59 PM

The only problem is a double monolith list since only power claws can hurt the AV14. That being said, it is the problem any New Ork list will have.

Anyway, how many doube 'lith lists will you see at 1500? Few.

Man, I can't wait to play my guard against the Ladz!

A double monolith list should make every enemy player smile..... every point of monolith on the table is less and less warriors that you have to kill to make the necrons phase out

Double Liths could hurt this army at 1500 Points, if used right.

You don't deepstrike the lith close and rapid fire with it, lord no don't do that - it'll just get charged by S9 or S10 PK's and die.

Keep the lith nice and far away and keep on re-rolling WBB's.  Most of the Ork shooting will require failed saves to work, Necrons can get around this.  Liths at range can keep you away from the Orks and alive, while doing damage. 

It'd have to be done right, and differently than usual, but it could hurt.  As a Necron player, "Ignore the Lith" is only true for armies that can't do anything about it.  The Orks will have to get into CC with the Crons to really win it, and Liths can keep you out of CC and get shot up. Bad things can happen here.

The thing is, if your enemy brings double liths, you ignore them and kill everything else. While you could try getting into combat to kill the lith with powerklaws... which need 6's to glance the dang thing, I'd much rather assault the necrons and kill them. IF worried that the liths will keep you out of combat... take more stormboyz and trukks, and less shoota boyz. Trukk boyz have a 21-26" charge range for one turn..... if you can't get into combat on 21-26 inches... there's too much terrain on the board.

Ork Power Klaws are S9 on the charge, and you will always be "charging" the lith anyway.

I just don't see shooting as the Ork solution to killing necrons, I see it as CC. Shooting Necrons means that for every wound you do, most of them allow the armor save. That's a 3+ Save and a 4+ WBB, with a re-roll with the Lith.

Sure, get to the army and phase them out, but you can't just ignore the 'Lith. You have to try and start taking them out or they can be something that keeps the Necrons alive. At least sending the Boss on Bike after one, somewhat safely, means I can kill one which will hamper the rest of the list.

One attack less than normally. 12 attacks in the shooting phase, 5 in the assault phase. Still packing implant attacks, and still attacking before the Boss. Yes, they are BAD against the boss in assault.

Each Tyrant shoots 12 times.

They can get 30-40 Gaunts just fine and still get for example the full choir, some Tyrant Guards and 2 or 3 independent Raveners.

You said your Orks would 'screw' Godzilla which to me implies that you think they would get an easy massacre. You're going to lose so many models that it can definately go either way, which was my point all along. One of the sides is going to get away with a solid victory.

No that's incorrect, since the Orks will be playing for a draw also. I could likewise say the Mech Eldar screw your Orks, since you can't simply rack up enough VPs to screw them over. If they feel threatened they can trade off points on a one by one basis to your Orks units.

Lootas cause the same amount of glancing hits than a standard Havoc squad with autocannons. Those 12 man mobs cause either 1, 2 or 3 glances depending on what you roll on your D3. That's easily acceptable for the Eldar player should he give you the clear shot.


First of all the boss isn't hard at all to bring down. If he isn't in a unit but hides in the middle of something I can make room by tank shocking with 3 Falcons. If he is in a unit and somehow accessable I can charge him with a couple bike Autarchs with power lances. 12+D6+6. Dodge that and so on. I can even trap your Stormboyz by surrounding them with Grav Tanks. Seems like you haven't played with very imaginative Eldar players. Those Lootas are as free as victory points go, just like any immobile heavy support squad. Again like I said, many times it will be a tradeoff of units since the fragile Eldar units will suffer casualties once they've annihilated a couple of your units. The key thing with Harlequins of course is that supporting units might always mess up their roll to spot the Harlequins in the shooting phase.


I like that statement a lot more than the one you presented in the beginning. There's no way those Orks 'screw' the top lists over. They just present a new army to compete with. Who knows, maybe I will start running a 10 man Warlock Council again with Witch Blades (considering the units kills 15 Orcs per turn in close combat) or equip my Autarchs with Fusion Guns and replace the Fire Dragons with a third Harlequins squad.

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 12:18 PM

No, neither matchup is an easy fight (but Mech Eldar should be easier than Zillas for the horde), but the army will present a challenge to those top two lists in ways most others can't manage.

I like that statement a lot more than the one you presented in the beginning. There's no way those Orks 'screw' the top lists over. They just present a new army to compete with. Who knows, maybe I will start running a 10 man Warlock Council again with Witch Blades (considering the units kills 15 Orcs per turn in close combat) or equip my Autarchs with Fusion Guns and replace the Fire Dragons with a third Harlequins squad.

Saying that they "screw Zillas and Mech Eldar" was a bad choice and a mistake.  I'll admit that freely. 

I still believe that in the Mech Eldar matchup the Orks are at an advantage.  The Boss being in the middle of a mob (or multiple) but not being a part of it, should leave him free enough that he can get where he needs to, or zoom of in directions that allow him to threaten charges on other units.   If he Joins a unit he will not be accessible but buried in the middle until the turn he is charging, using his extra movement to get himself into position to charge at the head rather than being safely tucked away in the middle. 

The nice thing about the horde is that you can cover a large amount of area with bodies and can attempt to box in the Eldar, eventually leaving them without safe places to run.  And the Lootas are going to be hard to get at since if they're deployed well, and it's a normal table then they should be able to cover areas that the Falcons will have to venture into after the game starts.

With 12 Lootas in a squad, if I roll a 1 or a 2, I'm getting the same amount of glances as a Havok Squad with 4 Autocannons (should be 1 glances).  That doubles if I roll a 3-4, and if I happen to roll that 5 or 6 and roll out averages, that's 4 Glances on a Falcon in one round.  That's dangerous and is an almost 50% chance to take one out in one round of fire.  Now times that by two squads.

Given this, and a normal terrain setup, I think there is a good chance that the Eldar player can lose a Grav Tank, which will swing the game in the Orks favor. I've not played on many tables where the Mech Eldar player could consistently hide every turn of the game, eventually you will be exposed to fire, and there is no easy way to drop off units to hurt the Orks.

As far as Zilla Nids go, yes the Tyrants get 12 shots, but only 3 base attacks.  Yes that's good, but hey still have to end their movement within 18" to shoot me.  That's the danger zone if I deploy my storm boyz right, and even from a Waagh move for other mobs. 

If your Hive Tyrant is getting shots at my boss I've either played like an idiot or I've already gone through and killed something else with him, which hopefully earned more than the boss's points back (which he should do if he goes after a stock GunFex, or 2 Dakka Fex's).  The Boss's IC Status and the huge amount of Orks in the army should ensure that I get the charge, and since your devourer platforms have to get within 18" means I have a good chance at doing what I need to

If the Tyrant is running 2x Devourers, at 1500 Points, I'm going to wager that his other upgrades are not that substantial for CC.  If you do kit (both) Tyrants out all the way, sure the Boss will suffer in close combat, but you will lack in other areas (screening, etc).   

With 2x Devourers you're looking at 3 Attacks, if you give him the WS and Implant Attack the Boss is looking at 1 wound unsaved so 2 wounds total, so the Boss is still alive and swinging.  Either way he should net half VP's from the Tyrant.  And if you didn't give the Tyrant Implant Attack then the Boss is going to win that combat.    T5(6) goes a long way to reducing those wounds coming through, and even with more attacks in CC, without implant attack the boss should beat down the tyrant.

The main reason I see Orks doing well vs. Zilla Nids is because of the potential speed in the army and the fact that to do the most damage you have to get within 18", which is where Orks start getting dangerous.  To concentrate firepower on a Mob you need to keep your TMC's somewhat close, which makes it very easy to just roll up that line  of Fex's and knock the teeth out of the army.  Not to mention the fact that if the Lootas are deployed well they can start working on Dakka Fexs, and Rokkits engage DakkaFex's at a better range as well, and once you start losing Devourer platforms things start swinging in the Orks favor.

Again, it's not easy, but I see advantages for the Orks vs. the current meta-game Zillas and Mech Eldar.  It's not as stupid an easy win as the Current Zillas have against say, the current Ork list, where any idiot should pull out a massacre, but if played well, the Horde has the advantage in the matchup.

Hmmm. I made a similar list myself a minute ago, but with a big mek instead of the second lootas and a trukk mob with power klaw.
(I know, it gives my opponent something to nail with his anti-tank. But the 13+2+D6+6 (21-27") threat range on the unit is tempting. )
I'm going to put together a Trukk heavy list in a few minutes.

Posted By Therion on 10/31/2007 12:18 PM

First of all the boss isn't hard at all to bring down. If he isn't in a unit but hides in the middle of something I can make room by tank shocking with 3 Falcons. If he is in a unit and somehow accessable I can charge him with a couple bike Autarchs with power lances. 12+D6+6. Dodge that and so on. I can even trap your Stormboyz by surrounding them with Grav Tanks. Seems like you haven't played with very imaginative Eldar players. Those Lootas are as free as victory points go, just like any immobile heavy support squad. Again like I said, many times it will be a tradeoff of units since the fragile Eldar units will suffer casualties once they've annihilated a couple of your units. The key thing with Harlequins of course is that supporting units might always mess up their roll to spot the Harlequins in the shooting phase.

I ain't a genious but I think tank shocking Orks or trapping stormboys with grav tanks isn't really a good idea for the Eldar. The Orks' guns might not be something worth considering due to the Falcon's durability, but S9 and S10 powerklaws sure gonna be a problem.

Lets consider tank shocking. 4 units of 20 boys are traveling in a relative close formation with boss hidden somewhere along them. You tank shock to get the boss in the open with a Falcon, drop your cargo and kill the boss. Now that unit is in the middle of 80 boys, 4 powerklaws, rokkits and they sure are in assault range next turn with nothing to do on their part but hope it made a differance. Next turn that Falcon and its cargo is most probably blasted to pieces. Ork looses the warboss, Eldar looses a Falcon(and its cargo if it had any). A total win situation for the Ork player, as what the boss represents is a faster PK delivery system.

Boxing stormboys is the equivelant of painting bullseyes on your Falcons for the Lootas and the boyz. They might not be able to put a lot of hurt on the Falcons thru the math equations... But same grim calculations could be said for IG guardsmen shooting at Terminators. If you roll enough dice some are bound to do the trick.

And also "a couple bike Autarchs" sure will cost more than the Ork Warboss and after killing him they'll most probably be squashed to pieces by some other Ork unit nearby.

Getting "imaginative" in the fashion of closing the distance with the Orks or going into Close Combat with them would work towards the greater good of the Ork army in my opinion, considering that its what they are trying to do.

Once again, I ain't a genious or expert on the Eldar field... but those are my opinions.

The cargo will die (boohoo, 96 points), but the Falcon? Discounting Lootas (which would have been able to shoot at the Falcon anyway), the odds of what you've listed taking down the Falcon are not great. Plus, it's optimistic to expect that there'll just be one Falcon smashing into your lines and that's that. For the points value of the Warboss and the four units you mention, there's space for two Wave Serpents full of DAs. That will certainly make quite a dent in your mass of boyz.



This is not much of an argument. "The Orks are unlikely to take down a Falcon, but Guardsmen are unlikely to take down Terminators with lasguns. . . yet they sometimes do!" The what now?

How is that? They hit on 6's and the lucky ones are just glancing hits.


You don't seem to get it. The point was that it doesn't matter how the Orks deploy, the Eldar can attack a portion of the Ork army with their entire army and annihilate it. What the Orks can do next is take shots and hits at the Falcons and hope that just like those Imperial Guardsmen shooting at Terminators, get lucky.

So, Tegeus, can you tell me what happens if I tank shock a unit so that they have nowhere else to move than towards impassable terrain or into another one of my units? Do they get killed?

I fail to see how you're going to box them in. You can tank shock, or you can turbo 24" to encircle them. You're not going to get out and assault, if you shoot with the FD's it's a waste (unless they had the Heavy Flamer upgrade), or if you moved far enough, then you're not getting them out either.

So what's the deal? What prevents me from running away with my 13"-18" movement?

And you're presenting yourself to get shot, and I believe I've already shown that Lootas present a pretty credible threat to Falcons, and once even one of those tanks goes down the rest of your army really starts to hurt.

And what if they're running multiple units of Storm Boyz, even at 1500 (which may be the better option than more and more shootas)?

I'm not foolish enough to think that PK Nobz can take down Falcons, but if you box them in and they are close enough to normal boyz mobz, then you could be setup for getting shot with Rokkits (yeah I know, big whoop), and then Charged by the S9 Power Klaw (again, big whoop), but your exits can be blocked at that point.

All I'm trying to say is that there is no simple answer for Mech Eldar in it's current configuration to deal with a fully optimized Ork list now, and as I said in the first post, this list may not be the most optimal one at 1500 (though I still say it's damn good).

There actually is a very simple "ROCK" for eldars "scissors".... and it's where you'd least expect it. Guard. Deepstriking guard with a healthy combination of melta guns and plasma guns shout be able to completely destroy a mech eldar or tau army in one or two turns, provided deep striking is allowed.

Posted By Angron on 11/01/2007 9:32 AM
There actually is a very simple "ROCK" for eldars "scissors".... and it's where you'd least expect it. Guard. Deepstriking guard with a healthy combination of melta guns and plasma guns shout be able to completely destroy a mech eldar or tau army in one or two turns, provided deep striking is allowed.

Necrons make a pretty nice "ROCK" for Mech Eldar's "Scissors" already.  Doesn't even have to be anything fancy either, my friendly Necron list (Standard list: Warriors, Lith, Destroyers, ResOrb/Veil) does pretty well vs. Mech Eldar.  With teleportation it's not hard to keep on getting shots and glances against Falcons and once you start that, you can start pulling them out of the air, and the Orb/Lith/Veil can keep you out of any real assault threats. 

Still this isn't about beating Mech Eldar, it's about beating them with the new Orks.