Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the current WD Matt Ward wrote:

"Unlike the Hordes of Chaos book there is no integrated system for using allies," he states. "You can't substitute part of your Core allowance to get some Chaos Warriors instead. The book has one self-contained army list, as will all other army books going forward. That's not to say that creating a full-on Chaos host, the kind Archaon invaded the Old World with, is not possible. Of course it is - you can play in a big multiplayer battle with numerous armies per side, or use the rules Jervis wrote in Legendary Battles expansion which ably cover the situation."

Well slap me sideways, the fact that they took the ability to mix and match Chaos forces in Fantasy just straight up blows, but they have the gall to smooth it over and say "But you can in Legendary Battles!!" as if that makes it better.

Now on one level, for 40k, yeah you've got gimped ass generic Demons and Greater Demons, but at least your model collection for your army wasn't completely invalidated. Don't get me wrong, it blows in how they handled Demons in CSM, despite the fact that they needed nerfing, but at least your stuff is still an army. Yes some models configurations are no longer valid, and that DOES SUCK, but a reasonable "Counts As" can work where you can still field your stuff. Oh it sucks, I know, but you can still field your stuff on a table and play.

For Fantasy, things just straight up went away. I personally wasn't affected, but I know people who are. I almost was, when I was chosing my second army I was debating between Hordes of Chaos, Beasts of Chaos, and Ogres. Thank god I picked Ogres, as all the Core Choices I'd have taken in the Hordes list I was leaning towards would now be going away per the rumored White Dwarf rules for Hordes of Chaos (no more Core Cav or Chariots), no more demons or beast support in Special/Rare. Nope, gone. The entire lists I had written up, and was STILL thinking about doing in the future, are now gone. If I actually had spent the money for one of those armies I'd be furious.

It just seems to me that all the great stuff that was in WHFB is starting to erode. First we've got a very real power creep that just went on, looking at the progression of power level from High Elves -> Vampires -> Demons, you look at other 7th edition army books like Orcs & Goblins and you just wonder how the hell it is supposed to compete with the other bs that they're releasing.

Hell IMO, Fantasy has just got it's version of 40k's Rending. It's just defensive in nature and they call it "Regeneration". More and more gak is just getting this USR, which stacks on top of other saves (So you get an armor save, ward save, and then regeneration save), with the ability to put it on big blocks or large monsters, thanks to the wonder that is GW's games designers. Much like in 40k, when a unit just isn't quite where they want it to be, it seems like they just say "Hey let's give it Regeneration!" and to hell with what it does to game balance. Granted for right now it's only been two army books that's got it, but it sure feels like they're going to keep on putting this kind of USR on stuff out there, hopefully I'm wrong.

So.....yeah, that's my rant, hope you enjoyed it.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:In the current WD Matt Ward wrote:

Right there I stopped reading. Mad Wart is a cretin who should have never be let near a decent set of rules for fear he'll turn them sour.

The man wouldn't know "game balance" if it came up and slapped him in the grinning chops. He just simply doesn't have the first clue!

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Hell IMO, Fantasy has just got it's version of 40k's Rending. It's just defensive in nature and they call it "Regeneration". More and more gak is just getting this USR, which stacks on top of other saves (So you get an armor save, ward save, and then regeneration save), with the ability to put it on big blocks or large monsters, thanks to the wonder that is GW's games designers. Much like in 40k, when a unit just isn't quite where they want it to be, it seems like they just say "Hey let's give it Regeneration!" and to hell with what it does to game balance. Granted for right now it's only been two army books that's got it, but it sure feels like they're going to keep on putting this kind of USR on stuff out there, hopefully I'm wrong.

Agree with you 100% on the proliferation of regen, and I was saying this exact thing last week. GeeDub's other "add X to increase power as needed" USR of choice seems to be "Always Strike First" - all of the High Elves, certain vamps (or possibly anybody with the cart's bound spell slipping through after the avalanche of invokes), anything Slaanesh. Yeah wide-spread ASF hasn't turned out to be the game-breaker that it was predicted to be, but still another example of lazy army development. Hatred is another one they like to throw on things, like an entire army of Dark Elves for example ...

Power creep in general gets me down every time a new book comes out, as the armies I'm struggling to get painted at last are quickly out-paced by new shiny . I was happy to see that ogres with their impact hits had some kind of chance against HE, and am thrilled at the apparently favorable match up of the fatties vs the new VC, but I'm not feeling as positive against the demons. With weak anti-magic, no shooting to really speak of and all of those ward saves to pound through, my ogres just aren't looking forward to being beaten by demons repeatedly. And since we're ranting here, why couldn't the demons have demon saves? True ward within 12" of the general, or possibly when joined by a herald with some upgrade, would have done it for me and still given the rest of us a chance. Or maybe a 5+ demon save that knocks down to 6+ true ward if hit with magic stuff.

Back to the beginning with the Legendary Battles cop-out, I wonder if the parties responsible for splitting 40k chaos leaned over and whispered to the guys working on Hordes of Chaos that removing the demons would in fact be a hot idea. Except the interaction of mortals and demons in fantasy is much more involved vs 40k, and I've been trying to think of a chaos mortals army that doesn't have demon or beast elements for support. I am looking forward to the new mortals book, and wondering if they'll be the NEXT thing in power creep or will be the new chaos / dark angels and have their power diminished after a year of OTT power armies. After all, Dark Elves get their new book before chaos mortals, and I dread to see how many of the DE rumors turn out to be true. They need it to compete, but my ogres cry a little bit to think about it

- Salvage

Tetchy wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:In the current WD Matt Ward wrote:

Right there I stopped reading. Mad Wart is a cretin who should have never be let near a decent set of rules for fear he'll turn them sour.

The man wouldn't know "game balance" if it came up and slapped him in the grinning chops. He just simply doesn't have the first clue!

What has he done?

So they are planning on removing demon and beastmen support from Hordes of Chaos. This disappoints me. I had been planning on using some beastmen in my mortal Chaos army, but probably won't if GW goes this route.

This is stupid. If GW wants to sell miniatures (as opposed to solid rules), why are they limiting the miniatures that players can take in armies like Chaos, an army whose diversity has historically been one of the coolest things about it?

Poop I say! Poop!

I just wish Mortal Chaos were more wiry as opposed to
Schwarzennager or Ferigno. I guess the Knights probably
are underneath that armor, but still.

Hordini wrote:This is stupid. If GW wants to sell miniatures (as opposed to solid rules), why are they limiting the miniatures that players can take in armies ...

Total reverse of which being the inclusion of the new plastic giant in every army when it was released however long ago.

- Salvage

In other words, this is the hobby equivalent of the old saying that when your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession. When you lose your job, it's a depression!

Seriously though, this is their design approach now and we're going to see more of it. Although I think these aren't purely design decisions and that their business folks have their hands in things. It seems to be all about tidily (and tightly) packaged products now.

I think you misunderstand. Hordes of Chaos isn't changing, its just that you can't use the new Daemons in your Hordes army, you need to use the rules that are supplied in your HoC book.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:I think you misunderstand. Hordes of Chaos isn't changing, its just that you can't use the new Daemons in your Hordes army, you need to use the rules that are supplied in your HoC book.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

In the new WD it also says with the release of the new demons armybook the Hordes of Chaos book is invalid. That's why there will be a get-you-by "Warriors of Chaos" army list in the next WD.

Well, the writing was on the wall when the current Chaos Marines Codex came out. I have a mixed Chaos army for Fantasy Battles. I guess I'll be splitting it. Gives me an excuse to get some more cool models, I guess. (Don't you just hate me?)

Guys, just use 'counts as'. Geeze.

Bunch'a whiners the lot of you...

BYE

Hmm, altough I have sizable daemon & beast reinforcements in my chaos army I reserve the rants after I actually see the wd-list and what it has. If the new list gives some decent replacements to, say, furies and such I can live with the changes and split the daemons to a new force which I was actually planning to build anyways. That said I'm still annoyed by the fact that especially my beast stuff will be gathering dust for the time being and the pessimist in me fears that gw will make the wd-list bland piece of crap with all the neat options taken away ("but you can still use the giant..." well, whee?).

Bunch'a whiners the lot of you...

you know H., theres a proverb in germany I find rather fitting to your comment:
"Who sits in the glass house, should not throw with stones."

There is exactly the same proverb in English.

Also, another one -- "People who live in a glasshouse shouldn't get undressed with the lights on."

:-)

Kilkrazy wrote:There is exactly the same proverb in English.

Also, another one -- "People who live in a glasshouse shouldn't get undressed with the lights on."

:-)

I always liked "should use the neighbor's bathroom" variant.

Anung Un Rama wrote:"Who sits in the glass house, should not throw with stones."

You need to head to your local electronics store and get your sarcasm and irony detectors fixed, 'cause I think they're broken.

BYE

Matt Ward of GW wrote:
"Unlike the Hordes of Chaos book there is no integrated system for using allies," he states. "You can't substitute part of your Core allowance to get some Chaos Warriors instead. The book has one self-contained army list, as will all other army books going forward. That's not to say that creating a full-on Chaos host, the kind Archaon invaded the Old World with, is not possible. Of course it is - you can play in a big multiplayer battle with numerous armies per side, or use the rules Jervis wrote in Legendary Battles expansion which ably cover the situation."

All those who didn't think GW made bank on Apocalypse, or that GW wouldn't force the split on WFB Chaos -- Jervis is laughing at you.



Seriously, GW is totally transparent in the way they act. If you can't predict what they will do, or think that they won't copy from one system to another, I feel kinda sad for you. It's not necessarily good or bad - it's just what GW does.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:For Fantasy, things just straight up went away.

It just seems to me that all the great stuff that was in WHFB is starting to erode. First we've got a very real power creep that just went on, looking at the progression of power level from High Elves -> Vampires -> Demons, you look at other 7th edition army books like Orcs & Goblins and you just wonder how the hell it is supposed to compete with the other bs that they're releasing.

Storm of Chaos anyone? Yesh. Dogs of War (who actually *had* a 5th Ed Army Book)? Yep. "Gee, thanks, GW!"

WFB power creep isn't that bad. It's just that GW has decided that each WFB army will be totally broken at something, while being totally crap at something else. So it looks like WFB power creep is there.

Boss_Salvage wrote:GeeDub's other "add X to increase power as needed" USR of choice seems to be "Always Strike First" - all of the High Elves, certain vamps (or possibly anybody with the cart's bound spell slipping through after the avalanche of invokes), anything Slaanesh. Yeah wide-spread ASF hasn't turned out to be the game-breaker that it was predicted to be, but still another example of lazy army development. Hatred is another one they like to throw on things, like an entire army of Dark Elves for example ...

I'm surprised this is news to you. GW's been following this approach for several years now.

Doesn't look good. Not at all. Here's to the fact that the Chaos army I'm working on right now is pure beasts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Storm of Chaos anyone? Yesh. Dogs of War (who actually *had* a 5th Ed Army Book)? Yep. "Gee, thanks, GW!"

WFB power creep isn't that bad. It's just that GW has decided that each WFB army will be totally broken at something, while being totally crap at something else. So it looks like WFB power creep is there.

I've read through the book, and I have to wonder what it is that Demons and VC are supposed to suck at...fleeing maybe?

Shooting I'd guess :S

Also, demons have a bunch of T3 troops with no armor. And vamps have a lack of multi-wound weapons and if you take out their characters things go TU real quick.



That's all I got.

- Salvage

Exactly, Chaos is bad at shooting.

VC's have a serious issue with enemies that flee from them and decline to engage straight on. TK's can sort of get around this with urgency-foo, and the prevalence of high-mobility units in their army, but Vampire counts can't put out anywhere near the amount of VH's Dance that TKs can urgency, and without an extra move phase their inability to flee leaves them at an enormous disadvantage vs. enemies who can do so.

The inability of the VCs to shoot, and their units general inability to catch enemies who decline to do battle, equates to a weakness vs. magic-heavy enemies. Skyre style Skaven ought to have a good battle vs. the VCs, as should wood elves and the like. Its worst vs. shooty Empire armies, in my opinion.

The new Chaos Daemons have an issue with Core units. They've got basically one choice, the infantry block. Which God you want to use for it is up to you, but they all cost serious points, and need a Hero choice for their hotness to function at full. If VC's have a problem with fleeing it borders on a strategic flaw in Daemons. Those 3 blocks of infantry shouldn't ever get in a straight fight, as the enemy can just flee and flank. You can sort of make up for this with the non-Core choices, but if you get a GD you start to lack points for such things.

I'd say Daemons share VC's weaknesses for the most part, although a magic heavy daemon army can cover this by simply winning the magic battle (the Blue Scribes are absurd).

JohnHwangDD wrote: Dogs of War (who actually *had* a 5th Ed Army Book)? Yep. "Gee, thanks, GW!"

But, aren't they giving away a Dogs of War army list for FREE on the website?

Pariah Press wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote: Dogs of War (who actually *had* a 5th Ed Army Book)? Yep. "Gee, thanks, GW!"

But, aren't they giving away a Dogs of War army list for FREE on the website?

You mean the one that little to no events let you use?

VC's have the same weaknesses they've always had. The new book isn't that much stronger than the previous one. Vamps got better, but no more Necro Lords in zombie bunkers so a bit of a wash.

My first game with the VC's I got tabled by a O&G force and my second game I barely eeked out a win vs. Dark Elves (and I'm not that bad of a player). I will say that I'm not impressed by the spread of Army-wide specific rules, like ASF and Hatred.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I will be honest, It might be my local metagame, it might be how I look at codex/army books, but I don't really see all that much if any power creep in fantasy from the dwarf book on. We typically in the local area only use what would be called power builds so that could be it .

I mean dwarfs can have relativly cheap hanguns, above average to good line infantry ( T4 and atleast a 4+ save in combat with some of them as low as 2+), and they have cannons, bolt throws and rock lobbers that can be tweaked with runes. magic weak, and infantry is a little costly per model in some cases.

Empire has Cheap decent troops in the swordsmen (3t 4+save in combat) but they are only 6 points each, they have cheap handguns and crossbows and more cannons and mortars and hell blasts than you could ask for, little weak in the charcter department and wizards but sigmar battle priests are nice. Ad lets not forget detachments which kills alot of the high elf and vampire counts advantage.

Orcs and gobbos, ok these guys might need a little help but 6 point orc boys with t4 armor 4 ans str4 in the first round of combat is a very strong basic troop, night gobbos with fanatics are one of the few things in the game that can stop chaos knights/blood keep knights/ grail knights in there tracks. They have the ablity to spam cheap bolt throwers and have doom divers, they also have nice if not the best fast cav, and the boarboys ( both types) are good for heavy cav and on the cheaper side. Magic can be plentyful. Animosity kinda throws a wrench into battle plans and in 7th its not nearly as easy to ignore as it once was.

High elves looked like a huge jump in power level compared to the previous 7th edition books. Its not really, yes all the high elves always strike first, but spearmen are only str 3, so yes 18 str3 attacks before you swing , but the spearment are T3 and armor 5 and 9 points a pop makes them just a little to expensive to spam. The high elf archer is 30 inch range but str 3 again and at 11 points still to expensive to spam. Now with ASF the elite infantry for the highelves rocks, 2 attack swordmasters, str6 white lions, phenox guard with a 4+ ward, however they are all 16 points each so even a small unit of 14 or 18 is still running you 300ish points and they still die relativly easy because of low armor and 3T. In the magic phase they are again very good with great items a strong spell list and dispel magic to help screw up magic for the other guy, but once again high elf charcters are expensive and its hard to do more than spam 3 wizards or so with out starting to suck up points from infantry.

Vampire counts took a list with some great options and some really bad options and smoothed it out over the entire army. The vampires were toned down but still are monsters, while necros got a nerf. the basic Infantry as always relies on static cr to win, zombies got a "nerf" in stats but I feel they might actually be better than they were. Skellys have a better set up, and ghouls actually now give them a run for their money. The dire wolves were nerfed slightly though they might be better for it since they can actually function as fast cav now instead of arrow bait. The specials got some nice working, black knights are better and not 0-1, spirit hosts got a little pricer, and fell bats well are fellbats. The rares are where alot of the action happened, the black coach is much better, the van monster is nice but nothing special, the cairn wraith are nice for the points and make the banshee useable, and the knights of the blood keep ..well they are great, but they have frenzy and are expensive so good overall but not nearly as bad as they seem. This army needs magic, every turn , and lots of it. the high elf player gets one dispel magic off, its basicly game over the VC magic phase literally just got cut in half. Now every charcter is a caster ( well ecept the wight king) but most are only lvl 1 and if the general dies the army falls apart. The infantry is very squishy ( minus skelly's and tomb gaurd) and needs to have more guys raised to replace the dead ones every turn. The vampires might be nasty in hand to hand but to even get basic armor and weapons they have to waste 20 to 30 points of their vampire power alotment, which is most of it for a hero lvl vampire. Basicly i think people just need to realize 1 or 2 wizards in a list is not enough on average.

Daemons are the new thing. from the rumors I have seen, things i have heard and other grape vine knowledge a few things stick out. The will have alot of magic, just like the high elves and vampire counts, there basic infantry looks to be light on armor with just a 5+ wardsave, 12points each and half of it is only t3. They will be chacter heavy like the vampires but less magic relient. they will have a greater daemon so be ready for it , good rule of thumb have at least one charcter tooled for close combat or have some item to make the other guys cc monster worthless, like that item that swaps stats ect. Basicly from the looks of it, if it hits hard its slow, if its fast its not hitting hard, so shoot at the slow stuff and just hand to hand the fast stuff ( with in reason of course the fiends are both as are the mounted daemonettes but )

Basicly to wrap up what I just said, the last three books have not really been power creep but a shift in army design, they are heading to a more charcter based, magic heavy army book ( much like 4th and 5th ) The trick is to realize this and start playing the other books a little more magic heavy.