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Okay to start, this was 2 fights, chaos vs demons. 1500 points Cap and Control

My list looked alright I thought:

Demon Prince, MOS, Lash, Wings
2 squads of 5 NM w/ blastmaster, each covering 2 oblits.
1 squad of 8 nm w/ blastmaster, 4 sonic blasters, and doom siren.
Those guys behind two squads of 8 thousand suns, sorc w/ bolt of change.
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His list was something that looked crazy, at least to me I haven't played demons much.

9 nurglings
9 bloodletters
2 squads of 9 plaguebearers
5 fiends of slanesh
9 screamers of tzeentch
2 squads of 3 flamers of tzeentch
great unclean one
soulgrinder
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So I'll try to recall the game roughly, it was all pretty dumb imo

First turn he warps in all the nurgle stuff, unclean one, nurglings, plaguebearers, and Soulgrinder
He fires and takes out 2 thousand suns, and a noise marine from my doom siren squad.
This with the str 8 ap3 large blast from the soulgrinder
(not bad I'm thinking, I assumed I'd lose something)

My first turn... I'm thinking the soulgrinder needs to go. Oblits shoot 4 las shots at it and fail miserably. 3's to hit 5's to pen is actually pretty tough to get i guess.
Here I decide to use the bolt of change on a sorc to shoot at the soulgrinder, but needing 6's to pen is even harder, he fails.
The second thousand sun squad, I choose to fire at the plaguebearers, but thats useless too... needing 3's to hit, 5's to wound. I manage to hit a few but he shrugs them off with feel no pain. The bolt of change was 5+ saved...
The noise marrines open fire with their blastmaster and bolters on the plaguemarines , from all three squads, they manage to do 1 wound. They even get a 4+ feel no pain from the blastmaster's as they have 5 toughness.
The demon prince lashes the great unclean one away 12" which is cool. He started up in my face 1 " away from my thousand suns.

1 wound... okay
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Turn two, Flamers, bloodletters, and fiends come in.
Flamers pop in kill 3 tzeentch marines, soulgrinder kills 4 noisemarines with instant death str 8 ap3 shot, everything else runs.

I've got a ton of demons up in my face, and the only thing I'm sure of is that those flamers need to go.
2 oblits shoot the soulgrinder, just for good measure.. both fail.
thousand suns open rapid fire on those flamers in from of them, and kill 1. The sorc kills himself with perils :( the other squad of thousand suns have bloodletters charging at them, so they rapid fire on them and take out 4.
these guys unfortunately had cover from the plaguebearers and terrain made alot of 4+ saves.
I plasma blasted with the other 2 oblits on the flamers and did nothing to the flamers... 4+ invuls... and a scatter to the bloodletters killing one.
Noise marrines open fire on the flamers, and manage to kill 1 with bolter fire, the blastmaster scattered off to nowhere.
My demon prince lashes the fiends, and get the fiends into doomsiren range. between the demon assaulting and the noisemarines doom siren+assault. the fiends get crushed.

Decent turn, fiends gone, some bloodletters died, and 2 flamers... would like to have seen all the flamers die, but they are crazy.
Still feels like I barely dented the army of demons, still have a soulgrinder, 2 plagubearer squads, nerglings, uncleanone, bloodletters. >.<
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Turn Three, three more flamers jump in and kill 4 thousand suns to start >.< I hate those things. Oh yeah btw nothing ever scatters when coming in because the unkillable plague bearers have icons.

The nurglings close in on my demon prince, and swarm him. This becomes a big muck of crap... 27 wounds with 5+ invul saves, fearless, and just a huge pain. From here on out the demon prince actaually does maybe 3 wounds to them, killing one base and dies slowly over the next 3 turns.
The one remaining flamer does prove deadly on his own flying up to my 4 nm and takes out all but 1 noisemarine with one flame. what a !@#&^....
The soulgrinder kills an oblit with a str 10 instakill shot.
The plaguebearers swamp both my thousand suns and the thousand suns end up in a losing close combat battle... can't break through that 5 toughness, feel no pain, 5+ invul.

My turn
Those flamers Need to go! I shoot everything i have at them and finally take the 4 flamers out.
Now this is really dumb... (i'm straining not to swear up a storm here @*$)*!) I plasma blast these 4 bunched up blootletters it scatters hitting 1 and it makes its 5+ save... then I doom siren it, hitting 4 and they make 4 5+ saves... I then charged in with a power weapon hit 2 and he made 2 more 5+ saves!!!!!!!!!!!! This is ridiculous... I'm punching out here >.< My Nm dies...

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Turn 4, as if him still having a soulgrinder, 2 squads of plaguebearers, 20+ nerglings, and bloodletters, wasn't enough; 9 screamers jump in.

Thousand suns die off.
The unclean one opens fire with a @)!@#&^ template of no save, no cover save on my noisemarines
Soulgrinder instant kills the single oblit by the objective
Everything closes in on my last 5 noisemarines/oblit on the objective.

I've got nothing now... Noisemarines move down as to try to stop the enemies from hitting the objective... tried to get them where they would get assaulted but keep themselves within 3" but the enemies out of 3". tricky but might have worked as the objective was on the second floor of a ruin. They fire at the bloodletters and of course 4's to wound hit only like 3 and they make all their 5+ saves. What crap!
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Turn 5, end game
The great unclean one kills my remaining two oblits
and the noiesmarrines get swamped by plaguebearers, bloodletters, and screamers... Their position didn't even matter as the screamers flew passed them.

I'm tabled, he has soulgrinder, unclean one, 2 squads of plaguebearers, plaguelings (which killed a demon prince), screamers, and bloodletters, and I'm left pretty pissed :p


This seemed fairly unbalanced, and I thought well maybe he just got really lucky with those saves, but it went very similarly in the first game.
The first game went almost the same except i didn't know how crazy the unclean and plaguebearers were... I unloaded several rounds of fire into them and both squads of plaguebearers were left standing... bolters hit on 5's and they get feel no pain >.< not even my blastmasters get through that crap.. The unclean one took 4 rapid fire plasma shots to the face and 4+ saved all of them... he also owned up my demon prince in close combat.
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So my end thoughts, These demons are almost impossible to kill with their 5 toughness, 5+/4+ invuls, feel no pain, tons of wounds, apparently cheap too with all those models. Yes sure, the argument is posed that they have a 5+ only so lots of fire can kill them, but the fact that they are invuls makes them so much better. They can save against plasma high ap stuff, and if you roll like crazy you have a chance at saving everything. Also the fact that they have 5 toughness or several wounds (plague guys) they don't take many wounds in the first place.

On top of that, the rest of the army gets protection from those plagubearers, and deep strike in with no penalty. These guys have some weapons that tear through armor and wounds like butter... Flame templates with no saves, no test needed, bloodletters with 4 str furious charge and all powerweapons... (heck banshies have all pw, but they at least have a 3t 3s)

No transports needed, free deepstrike with no chance of scatter! >.<

These guys have some of the most precision powered weapons, with insane toughness and armor. They can have and eat their cake!

I thought maybe I could even waste plasma shots at the plaguebearers, but that means a heavy is waisted on a troop choice, and even when 1 is left standing the army still gets to deepstrike in unscattered.
I could lash and blast them, but everything comes in so close I need to lash the dangerous things away from me.
I'm at a loss.

Both games I played I saw over 50% of the 5+/4+ invuls being saved... and I know thats not usual but its possible and happens... its just wrong. It turns powerweapons into plastic knifes!, and plasma guns into nerf guns!

BS

I didn't have too much trouble killing off 30ish Bloodletters, 8(?) Juggernauts, a Soulgrinder and some other stuff with my Tau. Crisis Suits ftw!

The thing you have to remember, is that Daemons can't charge on the turn they deepstrike. So shoot the hell out of them when they deepstrike right infront of you. Rapid-fire is a beautiful thing.

Also, what are you talking about "no chance of scatter"? They'll scatter alright. Only if a squad deepstrikes within 6" of another Daemon squad with an icon do they not scatter.

null zone would absolutely destroy demons

Also, what are you talking about "no chance of scatter"? They'll scatter alright. Only if a squad deepstrikes within 6" of another Daemon squad with an icon do they not scatter.

Well thats the idea, plaguebearers drop in with icons first turn, run into place. next turn everything drops within 6" of them.

It doesn't matter if they can't charge, those flamers of tzeentch drop in and can kill a whole squad twice over with those breath of chaos templates.

You mention killing bloodletters, yeah those die easy. I played a game against a bloodletter army and i destroyed it. Play against a good player who runs them up behind some plaguebearers and suddenly they all get 4+ cover saves.
Now you have to think, shoot at the bls in cover, or sink your shots into a moving bullet eating pile of sludge.

Also, yeah you can shoot them up when they first come in, but if you read through the battle I rapid fire shot everything i had at them and from my whole army shooting they took 1 wound.
bolters don't do a thing against plaguebearers. 5toughness, then 5+ invul, and then 4+ feel no pain.


Oh man, null zone would destroy demons. I didn't know about that. Too bad thats not a chaos ability

Gutteridge wrote:null zone would absolutely destroy demons

And that helps his Chaos army how...?

BYE

yeah,
sounds like you had a bad day!
But some day you'll play him and he'll have a bad day, swings and round abouts mate!/...

Those nurglings are fearless, but if you win the combat by 3 they take 3 extra wounds (with save).

after the guy made 7 5+ saves i'd have asked to see his dice!
then he make 3 more next turn!
unless he's a friend who you know, 10 5+ saves in a row = something fishie... but mabe it was really good luck>? i dunno

I don't think you get FNP against the plasma shots because they are ap2? can someone confirm that?

PaniC...

You don't get FNP against plasma shots, but the great unclean one has a 4+ invulnerable save, I think is what he meant.

Nurglings have the Vulnerable to Blasts rule, hitting them with flamers tends to do a lot of damage to them. In fact flamers in general really hurt the daemon army, except Plaguebearers. It really just sounds like you got unlucky, between your inability to hurt the soulgrinder and his awesome saves.

Yeah, He did get extremely lucky, but that sort of stuff happens all the time. The dice gods favor you one day and abandon you the next. No cheats though, I'm sure those dice were rolling legit :p

But over all, what i'm trying to say is that giving them all an invulnerable save makes them that much harder to kill. They have the possibility of negating super heavy weapons. And, Plague bearers are just stupid.

having a 5+ invulnerable pretty much gives the whole army a 33.3% chance to avoid every wound they ever take through every game. Not counting the 4+ invuls and the plaguebearers toughness/fnp

That has a chance of negating a third of all the wounds that should have been no save period. Then you add the 50% ones negated by all the tzeentch models...

I don't like it one bit. Jerks :p

Oh yeah, and at the same time my power armor which is supposed to be uber, and termi armor at 2+ "supposedly far greater than a 5+" just gets cleared instantly because those dang breath of chaos flamers
deny them their armor, and all bloodletters have power weapons. Flamers, which you can't really avoid since those plaguebearers are carrying icons, and they are just about impossible to take off the table. Somethings got to give...

thats a whole gripe on its own... those freaking flamers... what can you do to not lose your squads to them ? Besides having transports, which my list doesn't take. My guys are shooty so they don't really want to be
locked in combat, so they will always be on the table open for those flamers to deepstrike right next to them and die instantly. Any ideas?

Like they said, Flamers and Plasma guns should work well on them. Remember, PB will NOT get FNP against plasma. Heck, a Vindicator would totally rip into them.

What is the ruling on FNP, again? I haven't got a rulebook with me.

You dont get FNP again power weapons, AP 2 weapons, and weapons that have a strength that is double the models toughness.

right, but what I'm trying to say is that it is all their abilities combined; feel no pain, 5+ invul, 4+ invuls, 5 toughness makes them almost impossible to get rid off. Oh and btw I just got tabled again and this time he had 3 demons all with breath of chaos, 2 squads of 3 flamers with breath of chaos, and the tzeentch special character which allowed all his saves to be rerolled >.< as if it wasn't hard enough already lol....

Call your chaos army pre-heresy marines and take an inquisitor with two mystics and a 4 heavy bolter devastator squad. Anything deepstriking within 4d6" of your inquisitor will get shot at by the devastators for free!

ap1weapon wrote:right, but what I'm trying to say is that it is all their abilities combined; feel no pain, 5+ invul, 4+ invuls, 5 toughness makes them almost impossible to get rid off. Oh and btw I just got tabled again and this time he had 3 demons all with breath of chaos, 2 squads of 3 flamers with breath of chaos, and the tzeentch special character which allowed all his saves to be rerolled >.< as if it wasn't hard enough already lol....

With your powers combined, I am Captain Planet?

Just shoot them/hit them with AP 1 and 2 guns and power weapons. Now they just have invul saves. Still, they ARE pretty damn hard to kill. Dirty Nurgley bastards...

extrenm(54) wrote:You dont get FNP again power weapons, AP 2 weapons, and weapons that have a strength that is double the models toughness.

Actually, I believe the wording is an attack that causes instant death...

That is correct, it needs to cause instant death.

Which Demons are immune to.

But it "causes" instant death.

Which Demons are immune to.

But it "causes" instant death.

Real conversation I overheard at the FLGS with a force weapon attack versus a nurgle herald over FNP.

It's a neat catch 22.

I personally think being immune doesn't stop the effect cancelling your FNP...if that horrible sentence doesn't make you insane, then GW rules are for you!

No the pb do not get feel no pain for plasma. They will however get really lucky 5+ rerolled saves. Oh well... I guess the bottom line is they are really really tough to kill. If your opponent is having a good luck day he could make several invulnerable saves and never die. I warned you all that there would be much QQ here :p

Chaos Demons: A good reason to sell one's Tyranids and change over to Demons! Easy to paint. Basic Tactic always the same, suitable for 12 year old. Infinite number of variations. Marks the devolution of Warhammer 40k from a tactical game to rock, paper, scissors. Small infantry armies get eaten by Demons (you can't deny deep strike), Imperial Guard denies Deep strike and sucks up demon first wave, elite small infantry armies beat guard.....

Or, hide in Landraiders. Also, consider starting with entire army in reserve....

Does that qualify as QQ?

It's a fact that daemonhunters are out dated. It is also a fact that they are very limited in their weapon choices.

But every now and then there comes an opportunity to school the newbie in the store that is running over everyone with his chaos swarm.

Incenerators - no invuln S5
Psycannons - no invuln S6

daemons - dead

I've been trying to get the Daemons into tournament competitive shape, and I'd be surprised indeed if newbies were "running over everyone with their chaos swarm". It's a really really easy 'dex to make an awful army with.

That said, Daemonhunters tend to have real problems with Soul Grinders and Khornate units, I haven't really had any trouble, though my buddies Kairos list gets totally owned.

my 330+ monster fex has a reputation for not being killed in 12 games now lol, last game was against daemons, all you need to remember is aim at the biggest threat, forget a few nurglings unless you are bored, flamers, DP,s and any khorne units that are ready to charge should be taken out without thinking.

soulgrinders can be a pain, but my nid army is mainly CC, so its pointless him trying to get me with a large blast when he will kill his daemons in the process.

So I finally beat the daemons! I ended up switching to Eldar last night and won a game. Not because the rules were any better killing wise, but because I stayed in transports and outmaneuvered him. I pushed him off the objectives last turn. I don't think it's very fun running from your enemy all game and winning because you have transports, but if thats what I needed to do :p

Here is a fun tidbit of info we came up with last night. I tracked every save and wound up until the 4th turn in which I just stopped counting :p
He saved 70 out of 87 wounds for the first 4 turns.... I just can't handle these 3+ and 4+ rerolled invulnerable saves. With that only 8 of them were rerolled.
You also better believe when he got into close combat with chaos breath and daemon weapons my whole squads were instantly killed.
I just can't see winning when i can only get maybe 1 - 4 wounds a turn, and he can get 14+
2 DA squads blade storming with double canons did 1 wound on the first turn.
I wanted to punch the guys who made that daemon codex right there

A nuts on the defense list would be all plaguebearers with epidemius, and throw in the fateweaver for all rerolled saves. Some flamers and maybe horrors of tzeentch. Those guys would make a rock solid unmovable force.

don't gear up to kill marines and you can kill daemons ;-) you kill them the same way you kill orks or nids.

the mythical metagame is changing.

my advice for a great way of beating them.
start a grey knights army, and the highlight of the game will be "what inv. save?"

JD21290 wrote:my advice for a great way of beating them.
start a grey knights army, and the highlight of the game will be "what inv. save?"

agreed, this is the first time I endorse a purgation squads. I'd run two w/psycannons and a crusader with psybolts, give your PAGK squads incinerators, and the same to your GKT. Use two dreads w/psycannon arms or incinerators for cleanup on the soulgrinder, dont forget that GK dreads have WS 5

JD21290 wrote:my advice for a great way of beating them.
start a grey knights army, and the highlight of the game will be "what inv. save?"

Thats fantastic advice, just give up army X and play army Y, why not be constructive with tactics when it comes to beat demons et al?

My advice for beating demons as a Chaos demon and CSM player is to stay in cover, so few units have grenades that you hit first, it gives you nice cover saves, and lets not forget demons players don't like deep striking near terrain due to those dangerous terrain tests.

Also massed small weapons fire, yes plague bearers are tough, but make them roll enough dice and they'll die.

Also take out any other icons, if they can't DS off them in turns 2+ it makes the army far more disorganised!

Now this is not an exhaustive list and I can think of ways to counter a lot of the above, but they're a start!

Really, it looks a lot like your Chaos army is designed to fight elite MEQ armies and not much else. Thousand Sons are just really expensive space marines when it comes to fighting daemons. Its also important to note that lascannons are not truly reliable AT weapons against vehicles of AV 13 or better. If you want to reliably slag tanks you need melta weapons. You also have one noise marine squad with an identity crisis. The 8 man squad wants to be a blastmaster support squad, a dakka squad, and a close quarters support squad all at once. Its usually best to give a squad a single role and have them stick to it.

I agree that unit with the "identity crisis" is a bit scattered in terms of equipment, but I like them that way. They are my utility squad supporting my thousand suns. Shooty until needed, and will provide counter assault when needed. They even have the ability to move forward and still shoot alongside the thousand suns. They usually change their job around the same turns each game and do so well. Its only against the daemons which i have so much trouble with them. In any case, I beat them again with my eldar list, and have beaten them with my khorne/landraider list. I guess I have to submit to the fact that one list can't kill em all

I figure best way to beat him, make him use different dice, no way I'm ever rolling that many 5+ saves successfully.

I'm pretty sure that every mission in the game has the Reserves rule. Under the Reserves rule, you can hold any units you want in Reserve.

If I'm reading this correctly, you just hold all your army off the table, let him deep strike on turn one, then you can start coming in knowing where half his stuff is. If you manage to go second, about 3/4 of his stuff is on the board when you walk on.

The effectiveness of this tactic varies on mission, of course, and some armies benefit more than others from using it. It's only useful in Command and Control if you've got tough deep strikers or units fast enough to walk in from your edge and still contest his objective.