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GW has begun to regularly release their 40K/WHFB Codices/Army Books containing units that they do not make a model for at the time of release. Obviously in some cases they get back to releasing these models in a '2nd wave' or beyond, but only time will tell if they eventually get around to releasing every unit available in these books before the next time they are updated.

On the one hand, it allows GW the space to create new models for their ranges at any point in time, without having to release a new book to support the model, but on the other hand it makes it so that gamers who aren't able converters are potentially at a disadvantage to players who can convert up these missing models as needed.

How do you feel about this direction GW seems to be taking?

I usually play in fairly friendly groups, so proxying is a common occurrence for models that don't exist. I usually don't mind GW releasing rules for units that lack models.

Yeah, some times it's annoying (especially in the case of vehicles or large units), but I think that the fault there is mostly mine for not being a more skilled/creative converter...

I take serious issue with releasing an army book/codex with units that they don't make models for. It isn't because I am incapable/don't want to convert - it is because they have basically released an incomplete product.

Imagine if you were told that you needed to make your own house/hotel counters after buying the board game monopoly. Or that the video game you just purchased doesn't actually have all the weapons listed in the instruction book in-game because they expect users to create mods for those. It would NEVER happen. I am literally shocked that this kind of thing even occurs.

In short - they release incomplete products, and expect the consumer to think it's a good thing because it gives them the "opportunity" to convert?

/end rant

maxinstuff wrote:I take serious issue with releasing an army book/codex with units that they don't make models for. It isn't because I am incapable/don't want to convert - it is because they have basically released an incomplete product.

Imagine if you were told that you needed to make your own house/hotel counters after buying the board game monopoly. Or that the video game you just purchased doesn't actually have all the weapons listed in the instruction book in-game because they expect users to create mods for those. It would NEVER happen. I am literally shocked that this kind of thing even occurs.

In short - they release incomplete products, and expect the consumer to think it's a good thing because it gives them the "opportunity" to convert?

/end rant

Thats why its a Hobby and not a Board game....

maxinstuff wrote:I take serious issue with releasing an army book/codex with units that they don't make models for. It isn't because I am incapable/don't want to convert - it is because they have basically released an incomplete product.

Imagine if you were told that you needed to make your own house/hotel counters after buying the board game monopoly. Or that the video game you just purchased doesn't actually have all the weapons listed in the instruction book in-game because they expect users to create mods for those. It would NEVER happen. I am literally shocked that this kind of thing even occurs.

In short - they release incomplete products, and expect the consumer to think it's a good thing because it gives them the "opportunity" to convert?

/end rant

I'm going to create another poll to address this issue (I couldn't think of an easy way to combine the two questions into one poll), but here's the way I see it:


A) While some may not like it, GW has decided to stick with the model of not releasing supplemental rules information for their armies in separate publications (such as in WD or in mini-codices) because that makes it harder for players to find all the information for the army they decide to collect. That means new units can only be created for an army when they re-release the codex for the army, which only happens roughly once every 4-8 years (or so, depending on the particular army).

B) Assuming that it takes time, effort and money to create miniatures and that GW isn't secretly 'sitting' on their finished miniatures for some bizarre marketing scheme (which seems highly unlikely), it seems highly plausible that GW releases new miniatures for a race as quickly as they can within the confines of their company's budget and workflow capabilities.


Given you accept those two concepts, I'm curious as to your opinion on this question (and like I said, I'll make this another official poll in a second):


If new units can only be created when a codex/army book is re-released and there is no magic way to make miniatures be sculpted and created more quickly how would you choose to proceed?

1) I would put off releasing a book until all the models can be sculpted, even if this means the book takes a few more years to be released (and presumably design 'money' sits on the shelf a while longer not generating any revenue for the company)?

2) I would only put units in the book that we have models for at the release of the codex...even though this essentially dooms the army to not getting any new units until the next time the codex is updated.

3) I would proceed as GW is doing and put units in the book that aren't initially available as models knowing that this leaves them something to add to the range in the future if time and money permit.

I do preffer it because, it does give me a bit more motivation to start converting, but when GW has a sucky model, then that would force me into converting one myself, but, thats another topic :/

I get very frustrated with GW when they do this. I have little to no converting and modelling skills so trying to create my own is out of the question.
I play in a competitive environment where proxying is not allowed so I do feel that it can put me at a disadvantage.
I think GW should release models for all the units in the game so that people that don't want to or don't have the skills to convert or scratch build models are able to buy the unit straight off the shelf.

Clthomps wrote:

maxinstuff wrote:I take serious issue with releasing an army book/codex with units that they don't make models for. It isn't because I am incapable/don't want to convert - it is because they have basically released an incomplete product.

Imagine if you were told that you needed to make your own house/hotel counters after buying the board game monopoly. Or that the video game you just purchased doesn't actually have all the weapons listed in the instruction book in-game because they expect users to create mods for those. It would NEVER happen. I am literally shocked that this kind of thing even occurs.

In short - they release incomplete products, and expect the consumer to think it's a good thing because it gives them the "opportunity" to convert?

/end rant

Thats why its a Hobby and not a Board game....

I am not only referring to board games, in fact I only mentioned 1 board game as an example. i also mentioned video games. It was more of a comparison to gaming products in general. What about warmachine and flames of war? They are both "hobbies" but the companies concerned still manage to release a complete product.

Besides, playing board games IS a hobby, as is playing video games.

The fact is - the GAME part of the "GW Hobby" is incomplete. It's a board game with missing pieces.

maxinstuff wrote:I take serious issue with releasing an army book/codex with units that they don't make models for. It isn't because I am incapable/don't want to convert - it is because they have basically released an incomplete product.

Imagine if you were told that you needed to make your own house/hotel counters after buying the board game monopoly. Or that the video game you just purchased doesn't actually have all the weapons listed in the instruction book in-game because they expect users to create mods for those. It would NEVER happen. I am literally shocked that this kind of thing even occurs.

In short - they release incomplete products, and expect the consumer to think it's a good thing because it gives them the "opportunity" to convert?

/end rant

OMG! I thought the Ultramarines looked cool in my SM Codex, but when I bought a tactical squad, THEY WEREN'T EVEN THE SAME COLOR! Just grey plastic! And they were broken down into little bits! Games Workshop expected ME to put them together and paint them myself.

No video game company would expect ME to make all the 3D textures for their new game, or give me a selection of character and background models and expect me to arrange the 3D environment myself! GW just release incomplete products! Waaaaaa!

/sarcasm

Ok, so I LIKE that there can be options in the codex that don't necessarily translate to the model range. Think of it the other way around. It's a massive undertaking to release a model with every single option available in the codex, just so that someone doesn't have to convert. It's a LOT easier to write rules for a unit than it is to manufacture and distribute that unit. By restricting the rules to ONLY what is available in the model range you restrict codex options even further.

The 'I can't convert' argument doesn't really hold up against something like Vanguard Vets (Assault Marines painted slightly different), or Conscripts (guard with white stripes). And I like the fact that there are a few units you need to make up yourself. It's fantastic, encourages the hobby, and I fully support it...

Maybe, if Warmachine has a policy of only describing and including units they've actually made, that's why their background is so thin?

Well, my opinion on this is more about the individual units that dont have a model (e.g. ymargl genestealers). I really don't mind it, i f anything i like it, you can always use a 'counts as' unit and it opens up some conversion ideas.

Like I said in the other poll about the Codex release minus the models to fill it: I like the tier that it adds. It shows how involved with the whole hobby you are, which aspect of the game you are more interested in. I do tread the line of elitist though... sometimes

It's one thing to be able to purchase all the units in an army so you can field them, but taking the time to personalize and/or make from scratch the units you want to field is so very rewarding... imo

If GW released all models alongside the Codex, the same people who complain about the lack of models now would then complain that their army doesn't get anything new for 6 years between Codexes.

Waves are good.

The voting options only assume you disagree if you are a competitive player, which is rather 1 dimensional for my liking, so I abstain from voting.

I dislike the fact that GW now makes rules for units they have no intention of making models for. The old practice of releasing models for every Codex entry (Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Tyranids in 3rd/4th, etc.) was a double edged sword in a lot of cases - sure, you had every model in the Codex available to you, but you also never got anything new for your army for another 5-6 years - so the idea of 'wave' releases, where everything would get a model, just spread out over 18-24 months to maintain interest, that was a good idea.

However waves of releases just became random spurts of random models, leaving everyone from Orks onwards with gaps in their line, and no indication that they will ever be filled (does anyone actually think we're going to get Heralds w/Chariots? New Buggies? Harpies? Jabberwockies? Hellpit Abominations?). I think this is bad.

Worse, this practice actually does nothing to hurt GW. Writing rules costs them nothing, so they can fill a new Codex or Army Book with wonderful new model-less units and all it does is generate more sales for them as people go and buy existing models to convert into new ones. They don't have to spend money on designing the new models, making new moulds, the casting process, production, inventory, shipping etc. - they just keep selling what already exists. Then, 5-6 years down the line, they can just remove that unit from the Codex at no risk to themselves - after all, they never made a model for it, so they're not losing anything by taking the option away. So we'll see a process from this point forward where each Codex/Army Book will have 6-8 new units with no model kit. By the time the cycle for that Codex comes around, 1-2 of the popular model-less kits will get kits, solidifying them for the future. 2-3 of them will remain in the Codex/Book, but will also remain model-less (and might get slight changes in rules to offer (READ: force) changes in modelling), and the rest will be cut.

2nd Ed 40K wasn't good for miniature releases. Every month we'd get some random models for some random army, and there were huge gaps in the line (it took years for Marines to get non-Rogue Trader-era Techmarines, Librarians, Chaplains and Apothecary models). We're in the same situation now, only with a more 'money making' attitude behind it.

lord_blackfang wrote:If GW released all models alongside the Codex, the same people who complain about the lack of models now would then complain that their army doesn't get anything new for 6 years between Codexes.

Waves are good.

Though it's a pity GW hasn't stuck to them.

I think it's great.

GW get to expand the fluff and variation without being tied into producing models. At the same time people get to put a little personal spin on the unit because they get control over how they should look.

Thorgut wrote:At the same time people get to put a little personal spin on the unit because they get control over how they should look.

Until the next Codex comes along and those units everyone lovingly converted simply aren't there any more, leaving you with either a stack of useless conversions, or a bunch of things that will forever remain 'Counts As'.

My take on this issue.

As I see it, there are primarily two types of people that play 40k.
1)those that consider it a hobby.
2)those that consider it a game.
There was argument ad nauseum regarding this in another thread, can't recall the name at the moment but it had to do with people not painting.

That said, the hobbyists are more than happy to have rules without models so they can let their imaginations run wild and do some pretty amazing converting, etc. The gamers; however, want a functioning product, usually don't mind some painting but can't be arsed to do converting work (I fit into this category).

I would like to be an optimist and believe that GW is doing what it does to give the hobbyists something to do while leading the gamers to more complete armies like Space Marines and Tau that aren't missing models. Hmmm this might explain why those are the two armies I own.

Anywho, the reality is that GW does not think of 40k as a game, they think of it as a vehicle through which they are able to pedal their model wares. Honestly, there's no reason for the usual hobbyist to own 40 IG grunts so they have to give us a reason to buy large numbers, thus the game.

My 2 cents.

Edit: further thought.
I think that if I ran the company I would develop the general ruels book and army books for each edition in house but then only include rules for models currently in production with teasers in the codex fluff to lead people on; later, I would release codex update booklets (not for free of course) that includes the rules for each new model that way the customers are always buying. I think if I did it this way, the books would be release in ring binders (I've read this elsewhere on here as well) so it's easy to add to it and then updated table of contents for each book with the updates.

As in the other poll, the major problem with the current units without models release is that GW doesn't give any guidance on the proper basing or approximate size of the models for the unit. So, yay for creativity and all, but better support for the game side of things would be nice.

I vaguely remember back when the CSM 3.5 codex came out and people were trying to figure out how big the Defiler was supposed to be. Bigger or smaller than a bread box would have been a nice thing to know at the time.

They never have released an eldar warlock or farseer on a jetbike, and that codex has been out for a good many years.



Sliggoth

solkan wrote:As in the other poll, the major problem with the current units without models release is that GW doesn't give any guidance on the proper basing or approximate size of the models for the unit. So, yay for creativity and all, but better support for the game side of things would be nice.

I vaguely remember back when the CSM 3.5 codex came out and people were trying to figure out how big the Defiler was supposed to be. Bigger or smaller than a bread box would have been a nice thing to know at the time.

Exactly.

agnosto wrote:My take on this issue.

As I see it, there are primarily two types of people that play 40k.
1)those that consider it a hobby.
2)those that consider it a game.

I respectfully disagree. It is a hobby regardless of your level of involvement/participation. In fact for many people, gaming IS their hobby. I like converting, I think it's great fun. But I shouldn't be forced to convert something just because GW is too lazy or isn't prepared to develop models for it. It is very basic, if you release a game (which is what WH40k is, a game), you need to provide players with a complete game product. This means providing models for all unit choices.

maxinstuff wrote:I take serious issue with releasing an army book/codex with units that they don't make models for. It isn't because I am incapable/don't want to convert - it is because they have basically released an incomplete product.

Imagine if you were told that you needed to make your own house/hotel counters after buying the board game monopoly. Or that the video game you just purchased doesn't actually have all the weapons listed in the instruction book in-game because they expect users to create mods for those. It would NEVER happen. I am literally shocked that this kind of thing even occurs.

In short - they release incomplete products, and expect the consumer to think it's a good thing because it gives them the "opportunity" to convert?

/end rant

Have you played many video games lately? The rate at which games that are incomplete and require patching is extremely high. Obviously the market is supporting this as it continues to happen even with succesful and popular games. Even if a game is released complete and without major bugs or missing content requiring a patch, often times you'll need to "unclock" content that you have technically purchased. GW's appraoch to modding and converting is, in my opinion, far less distateful, they can reasonably assume that their fanbase is hobbyists and converting is an accepted part of the hobby. Giving the army books more robust seleciton than the ktis currently offer doesn't bother me. Buying a video game with glaring network issues at launch, for example (HI DAWN OF WAR 2) bothers me a lot more.

maxinstuff wrote:

I respectfully disagree. It is a hobby regardless of your level of involvement/participation. In fact for many people, gaming IS their hobby. I like converting, I think it's great fun. But I shouldn't be forced to convert something just because GW is too lazy or isn't prepared to develop models for it. It is very basic, if you release a game (which is what WH40k is, a game), you need to provide players with a complete game product. This means providing models for all unit choices.

If the alternative is not publishing a codex then I'll stick with converting or buying from FW.

I don't really like converting either, but what I would like even less is having to wait two more years for a new codex because "the models aren't ready" or even worse, releasing a codex that just isn't very good because they are constrained by only being able to publish units that have existing models.

faintpremonition wrote:Have you played many video games lately?

Quoted for truth. Although I think bugs are a little different than a complete absence of a certain feature/content.

faintpremonition wrote:often times you'll need to "unclock" content that you have technically purchased.

This is an evil practice and I rage against that too. Just because others do it doesn't make it ok. The vast majority of video games do not have this issue though. In the end it is just incomprehensible to me that they should put something in the codex and not have a model for it. It just doesnt make any sense, especially given GW's attitude regarding tournaments and the like.

Clthomps wrote:

maxinstuff wrote:I take serious issue with releasing an army book/codex with units that they don't make models for. It isn't because I am incapable/don't want to convert - it is because they have basically released an incomplete product.

Imagine if you were told that you needed to make your own house/hotel counters after buying the board game monopoly. Or that the video game you just purchased doesn't actually have all the weapons listed in the instruction book in-game because they expect users to create mods for those. It would NEVER happen. I am literally shocked that this kind of thing even occurs.

In short - they release incomplete products, and expect the consumer to think it's a good thing because it gives them the "opportunity" to convert?

/end rant

Thats why its a Hobby and not a Board game....

Zing. Covers it all.

Im a converter, so when I see the stats for a character that doesnt exist in a model, I start thinking about how to make it.
Turns into fun time!

And then once you've converted your model, painted it up, and used it for a few years - what do you say when the still-model-less kit gets cut from the Codex for no reason?

It's not a new thing.
There were units in the 2nd ed codices that didn't have models when they were printed.

Shining spears, Exodite dragon riders, falcons, fire prisms and vypers.

chromedog wrote:It's not a new thing.
There were units in the 2nd ed codices that didn't have models when they were printed.

Yes. And we're back there. The thing is, do we want to be there?

I've been saying it for months now that we're back to the way it was in 2nd Ed, where we didn't know if anything was coming out, let alone when - where model releases were virtually random, and spread across multiple armies, where units could go (and did go) entire editions without ever seeing an official kit. Is this where we want to be?

There was a period in 3rd and 4th where everything got a kit. If you had rules, you had a model (a few Special Characters aside). The significant flaw with this business model was long stretches without a single release for your army. The best solution is wave releases, where a Codex gets all its models, but it takes anywhere up to 24 months for that to occur.

But we don't have that. We have lists of units with no models, and no models in sight. Do you ever think we'll see a Hellpit Abomination? That Jabberwocky thing Beastmen have? Harpies? Deathstrikes? Khornate Heralds riding Chariots? Probably not. The really popular ones will get kits come the next revision, the middling ones will remain kitless, and the rest will just get cut in favour of new kitless entries - then what good will your conversions be? It's not nice to have an entire army become 'Counts As' overnight. Just ask any LatD player.

We may not WANT to be there, but as WE don't run the company, we're stuck on the rollercoaster anyway.

It's pretty much why my main armies are ones that were there at the start. They are the ones more likely to get the models.

maxinstuff wrote:

faintpremonition wrote:Have you played many video games lately?

Quoted for truth. Although I think bugs are a little different than a complete absence of a certain feature/content.

faintpremonition wrote:often times you'll need to "unclock" content that you have technically purchased.

This is an evil practice and I rage against that too. Just because others do it doesn't make it ok. The vast majority of video games do not have this issue though. In the end it is just incomprehensible to me that they should put something in the codex and not have a model for it. It just doesnt make any sense, especially given GW's attitude regarding tournaments and the like.

It's not just bugs though. To take a extremely popular and best selling game for example, World of Warcraft, vast swathes of the PVP system wans't available at launch. I'm not talking about the newer stuff which is changes and updates over time, I'm talking about the basic PVP functionality listed in the manual, that came in a later patch.

It's prevalent, and hte market supports it. At least with this hobby we can and are encourage to get a little creative and convert and not be forced to wait for a patch (or kit, in this case). I'd rather a bigger army list with more choices than a slimmer selection due to their manufacturing and marketing restraints. If they think they won't sell enough Hellpit Abominations to kit it out, I'm glad to be GIVEN the OPTION to make my own rather than have it never appear in the list.

edit: Typos, as always

faintpremonition wrote:
It's not just bugs though. To take a extremely popular and best selling game for example, World of Warcraft, vast swathes of the PVP system wans't available at launch. I'm not talking about the newer stuff which is changes and updates over time, I'm talking about the basic PVP functionality listed in the manual, that came in a later patch.

It's prevalent, and hte market supports it. At least with this hobby we can and are encourage to get a little creative and convert and not be forced to wait for a patch (or kit, in this case). I'd rather a bigger army list with more choices than a slimmer selection due to their manufacturing and marketing restraints. If they think they won't sell enough Hellpit Abominations to kit it out, I'm glad to be GIVEN the OPTION to make my own rather than have it never appear in the list.

edit: Typos, as always

QFT

H.B.M.C. wrote:But we don't have that. We have lists of units with no models, and no models in sight. Do you ever think we'll see a Hellpit Abomination? That Jabberwocky thing Beastmen have? Harpies? Deathstrikes? Khornate Heralds riding Chariots? Probably not. The really popular ones will get kits come the next revision, the middling ones will remain kitless, and the rest will just get cut in favour of new kitless entries - then what good will your conversions be? It's not nice to have an entire army become 'Counts As' overnight. Just ask any LatD player.

Yes. It's not a problem. We won't see models for these because they wouldn't sell well enough. If they suddenly become really popular they'll get a kit. The one hard and fast rule is that games workshop will not make a model that won't sell lots. Given this, you only have two options. Either you include units and options in the army, release the popular ones and allow people to convert the rest, or you just restrict the codex to only what's available in the model range.

They're not going to be making a Khorne Herald on Chariot any time soon - it wouldn't sell that much. But would you rather they removed the options for chariots altogether? I wouldn't.