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???? Does anyone else agree? The honour guard stuff is cheap but there are no options to mold them.

And this is in YMDC why?

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
???? Does anyone else agree? The honour guard stuff is cheap but there are no options to mold them.

What is your rules question?

I'm just curious what other people think. It's in YMDC because I want to know others opinions. They should have way more options than they do I feel.

This board is for rules discussion, not opinions. You need to get this moved into 40k gen discussion I think.

YMDC is for rules questions, not querys into why GW put what they did in the codex.


Anyway, its because like many other things Honor Guard were a lazy peice of work. GW simply failed in writing what could have been an awsome kick ass unit. But instead they made worse terminators that require you to take a model that nobody ever takes. Command Squads have the same problem in that Captains are also rarely taken.

Because GW forgot that C:SM are a shooting army and that a 4x melta/plasma command squad is better than an overpriced "terminator" squad.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because GW forgot that C:SM are a shooting army and that a 4x melta/plasma command squad is better than an overpriced "terminator" squad.

I don't see how they're overpriced...

Melta has max range of 12", that's easily within a move+charge range.

TH/SS Terminators have 2 S8 AP2 attacks and their 2+ armor save can't be bypassed in CC until init 1, at which point it reverts to a 3++ invuln. You basically cannot get better than that. There is no more efficient unit in CC in the current ruleset than TH/SS Terms.

Also, if C:SM is a "shooting army," why do they all have WS4, Init 4, and S4?

 TedNugent wrote:
I don't see how they're overpriced...

Because for only +5 points you get TH/SS terminators, which are far better than honor guard.

Melta has max range of 12", that's easily within a move+charge range.

What's your point? Are you really suggesting that melta isn't good?

TH/SS Terminators have 2 S8 AP2 attacks and their 2+ armor save can't be bypassed in CC until init 1, at which point it reverts to a 3++ invuln. You basically cannot get better than that. There is no more efficient unit in CC in the current ruleset than TH/SS Terms.

And that's exactly the problem! Honor guard compete with the incredibly efficient TH/SS terminators, so why would you take the lesser unit? GW made a huge mistake with honor guard by making them just weaker assault terminators.

Also, if C:SM is a "shooting army," why do they all have WS4, Init 4, and S4?

Because their fluff is "better than human" so they get all 4s. That doesn't make them an assault army, it just means they're better at it than fire warriors. Other than a few specialized units (TH/SS, for example) C:SM want to win the game with mid-range shooting and 3+ armor saves.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
I don't see how they're overpriced...

Because for only +5 points you get TH/SS terminators, which are far better than honor guard.

Melta has max range of 12", that's easily within a move+charge range.

What's your point? Are you really suggesting that melta isn't good?

TH/SS Terminators have 2 S8 AP2 attacks and their 2+ armor save can't be bypassed in CC until init 1, at which point it reverts to a 3++ invuln. You basically cannot get better than that. There is no more efficient unit in CC in the current ruleset than TH/SS Terms.

And that's exactly the problem! Honor guard compete with the incredibly efficient TH/SS terminators, so why would you take the lesser unit? GW made a huge mistake with honor guard by making them just weaker assault terminators.

Also, if C:SM is a "shooting army," why do they all have WS4, Init 4, and S4?

Because their fluff is "better than human" so they get all 4s. That doesn't make them an assault army, it just means they're better at it than fire warriors. Other than a few specialized units (TH/SS, for example) C:SM want to win the game with mid-range shooting and 3+ armor saves.

I think 'ole Ted thought you were saying "TH/SS Termies" are overpriced.

He didn't really understand what you meant by calling Honor Guard "Overpriced Terminators"

Yeah, I got confused when you said "overpriced Terminators."

I think we basically agree, Power Armor models suck at combat in this edition.



This is what we did ^

Let me start by saying Honour Guard are overpriced for what they do. This is fact.

I'm going to have to disagree on the point that they are just weaker th/ss terminators. They are more like mini-me versions of tactical terminators. The grenade launcher option is really the only weapon upgrade you should ever consider. which makes them more shooty than choppy, but still able to put a decent beat down on anything worse than a 2+.

They're biggest problem is that they are confused as to what they want to be good at. If they knocked the base cost down by 5 points a model and made the grenade launcher a 10 point upgrade I think they would be a lot better as a tac terminator alternative.

Let us look at two units of command squad and honor guard.

Command squad with 6 lightning claws and champion
Honor guard with 3 extra dudes and banner

The honor guard unit is currently 20 points under the command squad.

Command squads have 3+ armor, FNP from the apothecary and 3 attacks a piece with lightning claws plus the 3 from the champion

The honor guard has 2+ armor and 4 attacks a piece with any power weapon of your choice.

At base, this means the command squad goes at int 4 and gets 12 claw attacks and 3 extra CC ones from the apothecary and 3 more from the champion, with a power weapon

Meanwhile the honor guard gets 30 power weapon attacks and 5 more from the chapter champion.

Against anything that's not got ap 2, the honor guard is far far better than the command squad.

Let's run the test against grey knight purifiers ok?

The command squad is dead a gak, so we won't do that math, but the honor guard:

Just that 6 man honor guard unit alone will have it's attacks that will destroy a 10 man purifier unit, for cheaper than the purifier unit. The only chance the purifier unit has comes down to how many hammers survive and kill things.

All in all, honor guard a great when used correctly. They aren't herp a derp easy mode like TH/SS terminators, that can go after anything, but when used properly they will destroy their target.

With the new melee AP rules, honor guard got a much needed shot in the arm for 6th ed. I have used them successfully in this edition.

As to the original question, I think that the command squad has more options to reflect the fact that they are fielded in a greater variety of ways, while honor guard tend to be more similar between chapters.

 Jimsolo wrote:
With the new melee AP rules, honor guard got a much needed shot in the arm for 6th ed. I have used them successfully in this edition.

What do you mean - because people are less likely to take Power Weapons/LCs?

I meant that not all power weapons penetrate 2+ armor now, meaning they have greater survivability in this edition than they did in the last.

AP rules simultaneously helped and hurt Honour Guard. The plus is that they survive against more things.. The downside is that they have to choose between AP with axes or init with something else.

I think it helped more than it hurt but they're still just too expensive. My Carcharodons do like power mauls though.Each guy hitting with what is effectively 2 autocannons on the charge is ridiculous.

 juraigamer wrote:
Let us look at two units of command squad and honor guard.

Command squad with 6 lightning claws and champion
Honor guard with 3 extra dudes and banner

The honor guard unit is currently 20 points under the command squad.

Command squads have 3+ armor, FNP from the apothecary and 3 attacks a piece with lightning claws plus the 3 from the champion

The honor guard has 2+ armor and 4 attacks a piece with any power weapon of your choice.

At base, this means the command squad goes at int 4 and gets 12 claw attacks and 3 extra CC ones from the apothecary and 3 more from the champion, with a power weapon

Meanwhile the honor guard gets 30 power weapon attacks and 5 more from the chapter champion.

Against anything that's not got ap 2, the honor guard is far far better than the command squad.

Let's run the test against grey knight purifiers ok?

The command squad is dead a gak, so we won't do that math, but the honor guard:

Just that 6 man honor guard unit alone will have it's attacks that will destroy a 10 man purifier unit, for cheaper than the purifier unit. The only chance the purifier unit has comes down to how many hammers survive and kill things.

All in all, honor guard a great when used correctly. They aren't herp a derp easy mode like TH/SS terminators, that can go after anything, but when used properly they will destroy their target.

So, in other words, "let's stack this in favour of the Honor Guard so that they'll appear better"? You don't build melee Command Squads, because they suck. You build 4x special weapon command squads, because that's much better.

 juraigamer wrote:
All in all, honor guard a great when used correctly. They aren't herp a derp easy mode like TH/SS terminators, that can go after anything, but when used properly they will destroy their target.

But when you have a choice between an easy mode unit like TH/SS and a unit that isn't as effective why would you ever go with the less effective unit?

 Peregrine wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
All in all, honor guard a great when used correctly. They aren't herp a derp easy mode like TH/SS terminators, that can go after anything, but when used properly they will destroy their target.

But when you have a choice between an easy mode unit like TH/SS and a unit that isn't as effective why would you ever go with the less effective unit?

For fun? Variety? Fluff?

That said, in my books the Honor Guard's biggest weakness is still the lack of an invulnerability save. Even just a 5++ could do wonders. And since they are a CC unit that carries bolters by default, Relentless wouldn't be a bad idea. Put those two together without raising the points cost, and suddenly it's a much better unit. Although given that they can get 4 attacks per turn with the banner without even charging, I reckon cries of "OP" would emerge at that point

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You don't build melee Command Squads, because they suck. You build 4x special weapon command squads, because that's much better.

A good player knows how to push the battle lines in his/her favor and knows when to fight, and when to run.

I do build melee command squads. Nothing like 6 lightning claws, plus a champion, lead by an artificer armored HQ. It kills stuff dead.

That said I also make special weapon squads, though it's just 4 guys on bikes with plasma guns.

Each of those units are the same exact points cost and serve different roles. TH/SS's are for chumps.

You know what else kills stuff dead? TH/SS Terminators. No matter how much you pretend they're not a superior choice, they are. If you're after Lightming Claws there's an Assault Terminator for that too. Melee Command Squads just don't make any sense.

 tvih wrote:
That said, in my books the Honor Guard's biggest weakness is still the lack of an invulnerability save. Even just a 5++ could do wonders. And since they are a CC unit that carries bolters by default, Relentless wouldn't be a bad idea. Put those two together without raising the points cost, and suddenly it's a much better unit. Although given that they can get 4 attacks per turn with the banner without even charging, I reckon cries of "OP" would emerge at that point

So... turn them into better Terminators? (not assault terminators - the SB/PF ones).
Giving a normal Bolter relentless is almost like a storm bolter - just one less shot from 12-24".
5++ invul and 2+ armor save...
More attacks, costs less... yeah - that wouldn't be considered overpowered at all.

I have the dubious honour of using Honour Guard with Relic Blades.

They really are unimpressive, and expensive.

With relic blades, they only get 2 attacks base, with +1 for the banner, and cost more than a terminator, with no invuln. Standard honour guard are ok, Relic Bades are laughably ineffecient.

Overall, I find Honour Guard are only any good against non-melee units. Dedicated melee units will either have some capacity to ignore their armour, get a ton of attacks or attack first and overall just smash them. They die to genestealers, die to banshees with an exarch, etc. They'll mulch normal marines, chaos or otherwise, and can wade through a lot of fire when needed, but they aren't very efficient uses of points overall.

Also, Chapter Champions having to accept/issue challenges means he usually dies uselessly. He'll kill sargeants good and dead, and waste most of his attacks, or be killed outright by patently better ICs or unit leaders, or even better, get locked in a combat neither side can win, such as Wolf Priests with a 2+ armour, but no ap2 weapon; it's literally 4 turns of waiting for someone to roll a 1, while the rest of the unit can't do anything.

As has been said, anything they do, TH/SS termies do it better. They're a fluff unit, and a fun model to kitbash (mine are a mix of GK/SM/DA bits, fun to build and paint), but terminators are a much better competitive choice. They really do need some kind of basic invuln (Commissar's are issued personal force fields, but the best of the best of the chapter make do without?), or maybe knock a few points off either the base cost or Relic Blades; striking at int 4 with S6ap3 attacks is effective, but not 50 points a model effective.

Am I the only one that uses the grenade launchers?

That's the only way I like these guys. I mean its an extra s6 shot or s3 blast. Throw in a good mixture of power weapons and now you're cooking with peanut oil.

Now if we can just fix them being 50 points each then I might use them more..

In answer to the actual title, its more likely a fluff thing. Command squads are bodyguards/closest friends of the Captain in charge of the company and so are required to perform much wider ranges of roles, from Meltastrike on enemy vehicles, to helping man the plasma-lined trenches, to actually being a bodyguard. They are a Command squad, they are for commanding and commanders.

Honour Guard are much more cerimonial. Relic Blades, ornate armour, and their duty to protect, or GUARD the Chapter Master, or Chapter Standard. They would take the field much less than a command squad.

That is all pretty much what i figured. I was just curious what others had thought about it as well. Thanks guys.

rigeld2 wrote:

 tvih wrote:
That said, in my books the Honor Guard's biggest weakness is still the lack of an invulnerability save. Even just a 5++ could do wonders. And since they are a CC unit that carries bolters by default, Relentless wouldn't be a bad idea. Put those two together without raising the points cost, and suddenly it's a much better unit. Although given that they can get 4 attacks per turn with the banner without even charging, I reckon cries of "OP" would emerge at that point

So... turn them into better Terminators? (not assault terminators - the SB/PF ones).
Giving a normal Bolter relentless is almost like a storm bolter - just one less shot from 12-24".
5++ invul and 2+ armor save...
More attacks, costs less... yeah - that wouldn't be considered overpowered at all.

Well, admittedly I wrote that last post in a hurry and with those upgrades 40 points would probably be the more reasonable price for HG, but even so compared to terminators they:
- wouldn't do much to vehicles unless you give them AP4 weapons aka power mauls or Relic Blades when they lose an attack
- would suffer against high-toughness monsters
- wouldn't have the 3++ of TH+SS termies
- wouldn't Instant Death T4 (or even T3, except with power mauls)
- would be limited to one squad instead of three, unless you take Calgar
- without the 25-point banner (which is also snipeable) would still only have one more attack than TH+SS or shooty terminators and the same amount as LC ones... or no more attacks if using Relic Blades
- wouldn't have free deep strike

The upsides on the other hand would be:
- don't attack at I1 except with axes
- possibly more attacks
- the ability to Sweeping Advance
- taking up less transport space
- champion has WS 5

So all things considered they wouldn't be super-overpowered even at 35 (meaning a 5-man squad with a banner costs what, 210 points?), though admittedly still quite nasty indeed. But keep in mind, these guys basically are the elite of the elite, after all. As it stands, with today's meta with no invulnerability save they just tend to get gibbed like a bunch of ork boyz. Still, one of these days I'll stuff them into a Redeemer and take them out for a ride!