What was wrong with 2nd ed 40k?

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**insaniak**

The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.

**Insectum7**

insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.

Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

**Haighus**

Insectum7 wrote:
insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.

**Insectum7**

Haighus wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.

Ooooooo good find!

But it's in the support section not the characters one, probably counting as a vehicle? It's listed as having an Ork driver and the Nob, so it's not quite the same as an independent SM or Eldar character on a bike, and if they dismounted they'd be a "mob" of 2.

Edit: Looking at the Dark Millennium VP charts, a Vehicle is "disabled" if the crew dismount it, giving 0 VPs if the unit was less than 100 points, but if it's destroyed it's worth 1 VP.

I think it just counts as a vehicle.

**Haighus**

Insectum7 wrote:
Haighus wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.
Ooooooo good find! But it's in the support section not the characters one, probably counting as a vehicle? It's listed as having an Ork driver and the Nob, so it's not quite the same as an independent SM or Eldar character on a bike, and if they dismounted they'd be a "mob" of 2.

Yeah, its clear as mud!

**Insectum7**

Haighus wrote:

Yeah, its clear as mud!

But you see. . . that's the strength of the system though!

As a unit I think it's like the Eldar Vyper w/character unit, where you replace the gunner with a Farseer/Exarch. Except in this case the entry says you buy the Character and then upgrade the character with a Vyper instead of a normal bike, so you start out by buying the character in the Characters section, which would feel more like you ought to use the Character VP chart again. D'oh!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

As I’ve wibbled before, 2nd Ed and that general era of “wots an FAQ, precious” is why I have such a mend and make do attitude to Wonky Rules.

Doesn’t excuse the rules being wonky of course. But it does explain why I’m happy to home brew and house rule.

**Insectum7**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I’ve wibbled before, 2nd Ed and that general era of “wots an FAQ, precious” is why I have such a mend and make do attitude to Wonky Rules.

Doesn’t excuse the rules being wonky of course. But it does explain why I’m happy to home brew and house rule.

They published FAQs in WD during 2nd ed though.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.

**techsoldaten**

Da Boss wrote:
Mad Dok's thread got me re-reading the old rules and the old codex books, and there's so much to love in there. But here's the stuff I DON'T love, and I'm posting it so you can tell me what an IDIOT I am and explain to me why this stuff is actually awesome.
Off we go!
1. Faction variety: It's great that you get Genestealer Cults, Squats (a basic list, at least!) Chaos Cults and Imperial Agents ready to go. But no Tau? Only 4 units for Necrons? No Dark Eldar, just an admittedly cool Pirate unit entry in the Eldar codex? Fie upon that! So if I was gonna go back to 2e I'd want to make lists for those guys. Dark Eldar you can probably bodge out of the Craftworld list, but Tau are gonna have to be carved out of whole cloth.
2. Psychic Phase: It was cool, but it was broken as hell. And it required decks of cards, which makes it tricky for people who want to get into it. My solution: a dice based system like WFB 6th edition. Make some tables of powers, use the dice generation mechanic, and have the psychically resistant or null units have something like the Dwarf extra dispel dice rule.
3. Strategy Cards: As above, having this stuff on cards makes it difficult to replicate. But also, sorry, but I've always thought theses pretty much sucked. And the Tyranid versions are really fluffy, but as game mechanics, they also really suck. I'd just cut these from the game. If you want wacky gak the game already gives you plenty.
4. Wargear Cards: MOAR CARDS! Some of these I'd fold into the army lists as options for characters, perhaps limited to 1 per army, but others I'd just bin. Sorry, I don't like Vortex Grenades.
5. Datafex Cards: EVEN MOAR CARDS! I get that 2e vehicles had to communicate a lot of information quickly, and they did this by having these cards. But again, tracking them down or making your own is a pain, and makes list building annoying when you have to refer to them and you don't have them. Not sure that I'd go so far as the unified vehicle damage tables from 3e, but these are a pain and show how cumbersome a lot of the vehicle rules were.

Great job summarizing some of the good points of 2nd edition.

A big part of it's appeal was the fact the game was ostentatiously, vociferously broken and made no pretenses about being better than what came before. People took the rules as seriously as they took science class the week before graduating high school.

My Chaos Lord could run around in spikey armor that hurt you when you try to hit him, eventually he'd die and be replaced with a much more powerful Bloodthirster for your trouble. Guardsmen were meatshields and died as such, none of this stuff with orders making them effective at anything but getting in the way. Eldar could move shoot move charge move fight move move and then move, which is exactly how they are supposed to be played. 'Ere We Go was more of a guide to life than a Codex. Land Raiders were almost impossible to kill, just as their guns were almost impossible to shoot. Vehicles in general were hard to kill, nothing like a Predator with no guns rolling around providing mobile cover. And everyone had scratch-built models in their army made of pipe cleaner and deodorant canisters. Psychic powers often did something offensively useful.

The cards I could do without, and mostly did.

I realize we're never going to see that game again, but really wish it could be shared with the current generation. Totally different experience.

**Insectum7**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.

Well I think you've gotta admit that's a little more you saying "wots an FAQ, precious" than GW. When I showed up for game night I brought my Codex, rulebooks and any relevant WD that I expected to be relevant.

**ccs**

Insectum7 wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.
Well I think you've gotta admit that's a little more you saying "wots an FAQ, precious" than GW. When I showed up for game night I brought my Codex, rulebooks and any relevant WD that I expected to be relevant.

Good for you.
Unfortunately if one didn't buy WD, or get every issue, or know that issue x had such a faq in it....
Heck there was one shop in my area at the time that sold WHFB/40k - but they didn't stock white Dwarf.

**Insectum7**

That's fair, but the point is that GW knew what an FAQ was in 2nd ed, and published them.

**insaniak**

Insectum7 wrote:
In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

Ah, thank you! I had a vague tickle on my brain about the 50 point character thing, but couldn't remember where it would have been from. Went back over all of the 2nd ed era FAQs and couldn't find it. Never even thought to look in Dark Millennium.

Haighus wrote:

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.

As Insectum7 pointed out, though, taking it that way makes it a support option vehicle, though, and worth a VP when destroyed.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.

Still FAQs, though. On pretty much a monthly basis for most of the edition.

And for what it's worth, I never had a subscription, and was living on the opposite side of the planet from GW HQ in a time before the OZ edition of the mag was a thing, so there were approximately 3 and a half places in the entire country to buy White Dwarf without mail ordering it from the UK... and I still had every issue. I used to photocopy the FAQ pages and keep them in a binder for easy reference.