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 dementedwombat wrote:
I'll just step in and say that half of that reply made me feel really good, and half of it did not. 40k has, for me at least, always been about having fun with my friends. Play loose with the rules, chat while you play, convert and paint your models to make them look awesome (by our standards anyway. there are much better people out there) and compliment each other on them, read the fluff and talk about that. I really like that. It's, well, fun. I can actually understand their decision not to hold tournaments because, for them, competitive play isn't the point of the game, so if players want to play that way they are welcome to, but it's not "officially supported". It would be like if Privateer Press had a "global campaign" for Warmachine. That's not the direction they have chosen to take with the product. Warmachine is mainly focused on competitive tournament style play. If people want to play campaigns or custom game formats they can but it's not something Privateer Press spends a lot of effort on.

Thing is, and let me preface this by saying that I absolutely agree that for me, like you, 40K is something to arse about with and have fun over, I have no desire to enter tournaments and don't care about winning as long as the game is fun and engaging for both players, it isn't that Warmachine is focused on competitive play, it is simply that because it is a better written ruleset, which is modified and adapted in a consultive way with the player base, it is simply better suited to competitive play. In essence they do have a global campaign, it's just they call it the World Championships.

There is no reason why 40K couldn't be equally tight, and with the, IMO, superior background also have a great range of campaign sourcebooks etc GW have market share, for the time being, leverage and capacity, as well as the creative and financial resources to make 40K the go to game that it is in danger of ceasing to be once more.

I sincerely believe this is possible, I don't even think it requires quite as much as others seem to think, fundamentally GW simply need to stop trying to railroad people into buying stuff and concentrate in making stuff people want to buy, honestly priced. Couple that with feedback, if even only from a limited number of people, as long as those people were qualified and independent of Nottingham, with regard to the state of the game, and things will improve.

 salix_fatuus wrote:
Pewdiepie is one guy, im still against him removing the comment section but you can't really compare one guy to a company.

It is also an entirely false comparison to make.

He disabled comments - not because he didn't want to engage with people...but because moderating YouTube comments are almost impossible.

Instead, he still engages with Twitter and other methods and has actually created an online forum for comments:

https://broarmy.net/

The exact opposite of what GW has done.

 agnosto wrote:
I owned stock back when finecast first came out. I had picked up a Librarian and it was complete gack so I sent an extensive rant to Investor Relations detailing exactly what I thought about their "fine" product. A few days later I received a response from Tom Kirby; I'm not silly enough to think that Tom actually typed and sent the email but it was signed by him instead of "Investor Relations" though I'd almost believe he wrote it because it was chock full of the drivel he posts in the Chairman's Preamble on the earnings reports.

do you still have the emails or are they deleted?I want to see them.

 dementedwombat wrote:
The part about no communication though I do not like. However, again I can understand it because of how incredibly toxic a lot of the 40k community has gotten. I think it has kind of turned into a vicious feedback cycle where people are angry at GW because they don't have any communication (and other reasons, many of which are probably justified, and some of which probably aren't) but by this point if GW does open official communications, especially over the internet because our own OT forum can show you how that gets, we'd get so much stored up vitriol dumped out that it wouldn't do much good and GW would probably decide to close them down again. It's kind of sad really.

I don't know how communication could fix some of the things GW has done.

"Hey, sorry we tried to claim ownership of the words "space marine" and sue a children's book author. And by sorry, we mean we're sorry you found out about it."

In other realms though, communication *at least* one-way would help out immensely.

"Hey, I know we cut the life-cycle of the 40k rulebooks in half, but we did this to focus on a continuing project and to get all the books up the same page. We're not going to do it again" This ALONE would get me to buy the new (and expensive) books if there was some gauge on their value.

I wonder if it would even matter anymore if GW did try to turn things around, "making a product people want to buy instead of expecting everyone to buy what they make" as is often said. I mean if they're seriously considering re-branding now then even they might believe they're at the point where their name has been tarnished so much that nothing can save it.

I don't think the "tarnishing" of the name is a serious problem. I think it is the prices, the rapid deliberate obsolescence of rules, and the over-complication.

I know there are people who are morally outraged by GW's unethical business conduct such as attacking Spots the Space Marine and Chapter House. However most ex-customers probably care more about the practical issues that hit their wallet and enjoyment.

 Elemental wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.

I've got the 2E Chaos codex sitting on my shelf. As well as the "standard" Chaos Marine units, it also has daemons, and variant lists for the Red Corsairs, Daemon World and Chaos Cult armies. I think it came out for £15 back in the day. How much do you reckon all those options would set me back now?

Easily a hundred bucks, if not more. Which is sad considering GW has proven they can do things like your 2e codex, but they won't because the guys who are in charge are more interested in the bottom-line than the spirit of the game.

From a business perspective though the "spirit of the game" is only worth worrying about if it helps the bottom line.

GW's current strategy seems to me to be to greatly increase the cost of The HHHobby and accept that some people will drop out while loyal customers will spend a lot more money than before.

 dementedwombat wrote:
I'll just step in and say that half of that reply made me feel really good, and half of it did not. 40k has, for me at least, always been about having fun with my friends. Play loose with the rules, chat while you play, convert and paint your models to make them look awesome (by our standards anyway. there are much better people out there) and compliment each other on them, read the fluff and talk about that. I really like that. It's, well, fun

I can play loose with the rules in a well-written system. I'm just not obliged to play loose with the rules in order to make the game function or not spend five minutes flipping through a book to answer a rules question.

I can chat while I play in a well-written system. I don't know if you've played Warmachine or Infinity, but the players don't stand there in a grim silence of competitive intensity, you know.

I can convert and paint models to look awesome in a well-written system: http://smogcon.org/painting/2014-golden-thrall/

I can read the fluff and talk about that in a well-written system. If you look into the backgrounds of Infinity or Warmachine, there's just as much interesting stuff going on in there.

The point I'm trying to make is, none of those good things require shoddy rules (and "having fun with my friends" certainly doesn't!). They're all the product of fans trying to work around the flaws of the system, rather than virtues in themselves.

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Both myself and DarknessEternal were arguing that the internet is a hateful place. Your response to this argument is to call us both morons. THANKS, BRO.

I never called you a moron. I called what you said a pure example of post hoc ergo propter hoc. If you don't know what that is and/or mistook that for me calling you a moron, then really you need to try a little harder.

As far as Dimness goes, I like to make fun of him, as he's one of the most vitriolic people at Dakka and constantly spews nonsense about how hateful everyone is (in a completely unironic manner, making it all the funnier), and he adds a certain air to any thread he visits. He's pure entertainment.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think the "tarnishing" of the name is a serious problem. I think it is the prices, the rapid deliberate obsolescence of rules, and the over-complication.

I know there are people who are morally outraged by GW's unethical business conduct such as attacking Spots the Space Marine and Chapter House. However most ex-customers probably care more about the practical issues that hit their wallet and enjoyment.

[Broad Generalizations to follow]

Not so much tarnishing - in the way that it would apply to regular companies. Outside the UK - there is no brand to be tarnished. No one knows of GW, 40K or the stuff they are slinging. That is what word of mouth marketing done by introverts gets you.

However, when you do in fact rely on word of mouth marketing by introverts...every last word counts. They may not be bothered to talk GW down, but they are also less likely to talk them up. There is likely even some psychology in play when people who were often picked on in school (and may still be for their core demographic) see a company "picking" on another small company, author or otherwise playing the part of the bully. Just being aware of those actions is often enough to lower the level of enthusiasm for a company and product. Combine that with everything else and it can be the proverbial straw on the camel.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think the "tarnishing" of the name is a serious problem. I think it is the prices, the rapid deliberate obsolescence of rules, and the over-complication.

I know there are people who are morally outraged by GW's unethical business conduct such as attacking Spots the Space Marine and Chapter House. However most ex-customers probably care more about the practical issues that hit their wallet and enjoyment.

Right, the unethical business decisions will only affect so many customers. The same thing goes with Walmart shoppers and purveyors of other stores that have spotty track records. Which is why I feel the second form of communication I mentioned is so important- it has become increasingly difficulty to ascertain the value of the books GW is putting out.

The books have gone up significantly in price, and it has become a question of whether they maintain good value. Are the books full of largely recycled material (i.e. art, background, rules)? How long will the book be valid within the current ruleset (which makes up a majority of what players use, especially in LGS environments). These things are going through my mind as I've been trying to decide whether to get into the current game again. I'd be looking at about $180 for the main rulebook and the Ork and DE codexes, not to mention the supplement books since they seem so vital to building decent lists these days. And while the sticker price has a significant shock value, I cannot ascertain if these books remain valid like previous releases, replaced within a 2-year time frame with a new (and slightly different) book.

I have to admit that, partly due to personal circumstances, but mainly for the reasons Accolade cites, I've been more willing to don an eye patch and wield a parrot in the last year than ever before - 3 years ago I'd buy every codex without thought purely to stay abreast of new rules and units.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
From a business perspective though the "spirit of the game" is only worth worrying about if it helps the bottom line.

This reminds me of an article I read after Steve Jobs died. It was about how Jobs' real lesson to business leaders was essentially 'A good way to convince people to buy your things is to make the things good' (no Apple flame wars please; let's agree that this author was an Apple fan, it doesn't matter). It was presented like forgotten lore.

'Obviously, we business guys like good things,but the basic humans? How would they even know?'

 Azreal13 wrote:
I have to admit that, partly due to personal circumstances, but mainly for the reasons Accolade cites, I've been more willing to don an eye patch and wield a parrot in the last year than ever before - 3 years ago I'd buy every codex without thought purely to stay abreast of new rules and units.

I bought the Astra M... nope, still can't write that out. I bought the Guard Codex out of loyalty and legacy. In a way it was a good thing, as as much as I hated that format of Codex (which had improved since the format before it, but only by a little), it wasn't long after that they swapped to the minimalist fluff/no artwork/giant photos style... and that's the worst format they've ever had.

can i say something positive here???
we'll, i'm going to anyway, because i love GW's miniatures...
i have many friends who are writers, sculptors, and painters for the company, and they are not "the company"...
they are not the ones who decide the policy or prices...
they are hard working artists with as much passion for the settings as the rest of us have...

it really sucks that it seems like so many people forget to give a crap about the hard work of so many people that goes into each new release...
i get that the prices are not to people's liking...
i love free stuff as much as the next guy, but i like that my friends get to earn a living doing what the enjoy...

the design studio is not Kirby and his cronies...
it is a bunch of dudes who like to make minis, art, and stories for us all to enjoy...

personally, there is no mini company out there that makes a product which inspires me to paint as much as a GW mini does...
the latest redesign of the Space Marine kits (Tactical, Sternguard, and Vanguard) has still got me excited, a year later...
the minis are slightly bigger, and even more awesome, than ever before...

so yeah, there are actually "collector" customers out there, who don't play the game, but love everything about the setting, and would rather have a GW mini over any of the alternatives...
i know, because i am one, and have been since 1984...

cheers
jah

 Azreal13 wrote:
In essence they do have a global campaign, it's just they call it the World Championships.

Not in essence, they DO have a global campaign. In fact, they do four of them every single year in the Leagues.

Results are tracked by the EOs/PGs/stores and reported in. There's local winners as well as global "winners"(this year and last year in the form of which vault opens first, in previous years the specific factions could actually win the Leagues).

They even come complete with entirely new fiction.

 jah-joshua wrote:
can i say something positive here???
we'll, i'm going to anyway, because i love GW's miniatures...
i have many friends who are writers, sculptors, and painters for the company, and they are not "the company"...
they are not the ones who decide the policy or prices...
they are hard working artists with as much passion for the settings as the rest of us have...

it really sucks that it seems like so many people forget to give a crap about the hard work of so many people that goes into each new release...
i get that the prices are not to people's liking...
i love free stuff as much as the next guy, but i like that my friends get to earn a living doing what the enjoy...

the design studio is not Kirby and his cronies...
it is a bunch of dudes who like to make minis, art, and stories for us all to enjoy...

personally, there is no mini company out there that makes a product which inspires me to paint as much as a GW mini does...
the latest redesign of the Space Marine kits (Tactical, Sternguard, and Vanguard) has still got me excited, a year later...
the minis are slightly bigger, and even more awesome, than ever before...

so yeah, there are actually "collector" customers out there, who don't play the game, but love everything about the setting, and would rather have a GW mini over any of the alternatives...
i know, because i am one, and have been since 1984...

cheers
jah

We're talking about a for-profit company, not a charity. If they want my money, they have to work for it. Yes, their minis are fantastic (with some glaring exceptions) But just because an artist worked really hard that doesn't mean I should spend my money on the artwork. (As a professional artist, believe me, I know.)
It's the rules and horrible business practices that push people away.

were did i say, or even imply, that someone should spend their money on GW???

all i said is that i love the work they do, and buy what i like...
we already know you quit, dude...
you made a thread about it...

i am entitled to my opinion, too...
like i said, no other mini company out there has a product that inspires me to paint as much as Space Marines do, and have done for over 25 years...

my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio...
was that not clear???
where did i say, "buy GW, people"???
i think you missed my point entirely...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
were did i say, or even imply, that someone should spend their money on GW???

all i said is that i love the work they do, and buy what i like...
we already know you quit, dude...
you made a thread about it...

i am entitled to my opinion, too...
like i said, no other mini company out there has a product that inspires me to paint as much as Space Marines do, and have done for over 25 years...

my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio...
was that not clear???
where did i say, "buy GW, people"???
i think you missed my point entirely...

cheers
jah

Nobody has said anything about the "hard working artists of the design studio". That doesn't mean the company is good.

 jah-joshua wrote:
my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio...
was that not clear???

Frankly, no, it wasn't.

Your post reads like fan boying over the studio because you happen to know some people in the studio and we should accept that prices are what they are because people need to be paid(which is true, but it's not the studio benefiting from these prices and many former studio members have stated as such).

it is one thing to walk away from something you don't like, but i read a lot of posts that are very much saying that they wish GW would die...
that would mean a lot of hard working artists would lose their jobs...

i am just showing my support for those people who have given me so much to enjoy in the last 30 years...
i am saying sometimes we forget about the human element under the bean-counters...

cheers
jah



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio...
was that not clear???

Frankly, no, it wasn't.

Your post reads like fan boying over the studio because you happen to know some people in the studio and we should accept that prices are what they are because people need to be paid(which is true, but it's not the studio benefiting from these prices and many former studio members have stated as such).

where did i say you should accept the prices, or like something you don't???

why attack me as "fan boying" for being a hard working member of the industry, and having some friends that are lucky, and talented, enough to work in the studio...
i consider it an honor to know these guys...
why is that wrong???

cheers
jah

Should GW die, any artist competent and hard-working enough would get picked up by other companies expanding to fill the market void.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I find it sort of off-putting that this mail continually refers to the community as "customers" or "collectors".
Who are they kidding? If the game aspect of GW didn't exist nobody would buy their overpriced models.

I would. If you are buying GW models purely for the game, you should probably either look for a better ruleset or cheaper alternative models.
I (and I suspect many others too) buy models from GW because I like their look and the fluff behind them.
If it wasn't for the game, I might buy less models, but I'd still buy them.

 jah-joshua wrote:
it is one thing to walk away from something you don't like, but i read a lot of posts that are very much saying that they wish GW would die...
that would mean a lot of hard working artists would lose their jobs...

i am just showing my support for those people who have given me so much to enjoy in the last 30 years...
i am saying sometimes we forget about the human element under the bean-counters...

cheers
jah

Hmm, ahh no I wasn't forgetting about them. Obviously GW has a number of people in the company that are good people. There are ALWAYS people in a company who are not in control, who do a good job day-in-and-day-out, and get crapped on my management's actions.

But we're not talking about these good people. This conversation is about the entity that has the single greatest impact on the direction of GW- the management. And it may end up being the case that GW gets run into the ground by the management, and it will certainly suck to see all those people's livelihoods get through into disarray like that, but their personal lives aren't a reason for me to keep investing in the GW brand. It sucks, but hey this is capitalism.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I find it sort of off-putting that this mail continually refers to the community as "customers" or "collectors".
Who are they kidding? If the game aspect of GW didn't exist nobody would buy their overpriced models.

I would. If you are buying GW models purely for the game, you should probably either look for a better ruleset or cheaper alternative models.
I (and I suspect many others too) buy models from GW because I like their look and the fluff behind them.
If it wasn't for the game, I might buy less models, but I'd still buy them.

GW, no matter what they may think, survive on the the "game". The models are nice, and the background is very interesting and engrossing, but without the promise of a "game" at the end people would never buy half the models they do. And sure, there are people who like to collect the models because, hey, the models are damn good. But that group buys a pittance of the overall models compared to everyone who buys with *at LEAST* the intention of playing (if only theoretically).

fair enough, Accolade, but again i ask, where did i say anyone should buy GW???

i was simply expressing which aspect of GW i love...
i could understand if my post was just overlooked as irrelevant, which it may be in this thread...
i think i may have misunderstood what we are talking about in this topic...

what i am surprised at is the knee-jerk reaction against me saying something nice about the studio, and how it was interpreted to mean, "buy GW, you ungrateful bastards", which is not what i said at all...

as to the subject of the second part of your post, i was also stating that i am one of those "collectors" that GW is always on about...
i have never been a gamer, but have always been a collector...
so it is not like the "collector" is some mythic beast that only exists in Kirby's imagination...
i bought my first blister pack 30 years ago, without ever knowing anything about the rules, or even that there was a game...
i just wanted to paint cool minis...

i know i am in the minority, and i am happy to do my thing without attacking anyone for their way of enjoying miniatures, or even people expressing their dissatisfaction...
i am not going to be silent about what i love, but rather express that i am one happy customer...
i am much more likely to keep quiet about the things i dislike, because i don't enjoy spreading negative waves...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
it really sucks that it seems like so many people forget to give a crap about the hard work of so many people that goes into each new release...
i get that the prices are not to people's liking...
i love free stuff as much as the next guy, but i like that my friends get to earn a living doing what the enjoy...

Well....I actually agree entirely with what you say....but other companies have that too. And importantly, they usually convey it better. I can go onto the Spartan, Privateer or Wyrd websites and find blogs and development diaries where I can hear from the creators themselves about the love they put into their work. Compare that to GW's paranoid secrecy.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I have to admit that, partly due to personal circumstances, but mainly for the reasons Accolade cites, I've been more willing to don an eye patch and wield a parrot in the last year than ever before - 3 years ago I'd buy every codex without thought purely to stay abreast of new rules and units.

Same here. I own just over 20 (I think it's 26 but I'm not checking!) of the current publications that include rules for 40k and WHF. With the release of the Dark Eldar Codex it would now cost me over £1000 at RRP just to buy all the printed rules material I don't have.

Over £1000.

I hear what you are saying. Unfortunately it could be that GW management and their actions will mean that the miniatures you love, that inspire your creative juices, will no longer be available to you in the future

For what its worth, GW currently have an array of minis I would love to buy and paint and kudos to the guys involved in creating them. But management have made it clear they do not want my custom, so I go elsewhere.

 jah-joshua wrote:

What i am surprised at is the knee-jerk reaction against me saying something nice about the studio, and how it was interpreted to mean, "buy GW, you ungrateful bastards", which is not what i said at all...

Not what I got from what you said at all. What I would say is that there is an element of 'if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem' occurring here. It is all very well saying that these people love their jobs and the setting they're creating within, but GW put out a lot of product, and the quality is spotty at best, for every Imperial Knight there's a Lord Of Skulls - now I'm sure there's people out there who simply go gaga over the Khornemower, but I'm just putting forward a personal best and worst.

I reckon, and this is purely finger in the air thinking here, that for every 5 kits GW release, we get one awesome one, three safe ones and one terrible one, and that's not an awesome hit rate. Black Library are probably about similar in the quality of their fiction I'd say too, the studio rules are probably worse than that. I'd say FW, while they continue to operate in their own little bubble, are probably the only GW division that bucks that trend significantly.

Now, all this wholly subjective reasoning leads us to one of only a handful of possible conclusions about the GW design studio. It's populated in the main by decidedly average talent, in which case fair play to them for landing a job with a secure income and more fool GW for not more aggressively pursuing or searching out design talent. Or alternatively, the GW studio artists, writers etc are all, or mainly, remarkable talents who are prevented from fully expressing that talent by corporate pressures. If this is the case, then the individuals have probably decided to sacrifice their artistic and creative integrity in order to land aforementioned wage packet, an understandable decision when mortgages and children are in the equation, or don't have the conviction in their own ability to make it on their own or secure a job for another studio, or, perhaps, simply don't have the courage to fight for something they are passionate about (which, given what is rumoured about GW internal culture, I find quite believable.)

All ways, to me at least, but I'm fairly confident from other's posts and conversations I've had I'm not of an unusual opinion, there are sculptors and companies such as Mierce or Kingdom Death that seem to have a much higher hit rate than GW. To try and somehow absolve the studio of at least part of the responsibility for GW's apparently fading power I find somewhat fallacious, a team of talented, passionate creative people at the heart of GW strike me as some of the best positioned people on the planet to positively influence the direction GW goes from here. If they don't, how can you say it isn't at least partially their fault?