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Lorgar could have been spouting it as a way of undermining them...

Also, previous codices have stated that that is the reason for the Ultramarines having been so large.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Deadshot wrote:And not drawn from the Warp.

Yes it is..

The Hive Mind is a warp entity.

Erm no it isnt... The hive mind creates a shadow in the warp, if it was a warp entity, it'd be disrupting itself. so therefore would be pointless...

The Shadow in the Warp is the communication ofevery single Tyranid sitting in the warp. That's why it interferes with everything else - it's nothing else can get through the 'noise' of the comminucation.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Also, the 5th ed codex describes the hive mind as a "Gestalt Conciousness" which contains the collective mind of the Tyranid race. It isn't separate from the race, cannot be defined to a single being either.

And that gestalt consiousness is, logically, the Shadow in the Warp. Which, well, sits in the warp. It's not a 'single thing', it's literally a blanket communication between the entire race, which other signals can't penetrate.

The Hive-mind is described in many codices and short stories that it "projects" the shadow in the warp, there is no evidence to suggest the Hive-mind is a warp based entity. especially as the Empyrean is described as being local to the milky way only, and the Tyranid race is extra-galactic in origin.


so the two really don't match.

The hive mind is a psychic collective consiousness (or, as you put it, a gestalt consiousness). It's not some physical being somewhere in the material plane like the Zerg Overmind, it's purely the psychic collection of the minds of every Tyranid. There's no other place for it to reside than the warp.

Considering the Shadow in the Warp is the 'noise' from their communication, it's a logical assumption that it actually is the Hive Mind.

-Loki- wrote:The hive mind is a psychic collective consiousness (or, as you put it, a gestalt consiousness). It's not some physical being somewhere in the material plane like the Zerg Overmind, it's purely the psychic collection of the minds of every Tyranid. There's no other place for it to reside than the warp.

Considering the Shadow in the Warp is the 'noise' from their communication, it's a logical assumption that it actually is the Hive Mind.

The C'tan existed in an immaterial/etheric form until they were given physical necrodermis bodies. They didn't exist in the warp either for obvious reasons. They were simply immaterial entities.

Additionally there are those with the Pariah-gene that eminate a warp-suppression aura without being psychics themselves. Comparable to the Shadow in the Warp.

The Hive Mind likewise exists as an "Internet" of close-range biological nodes. There's no conclusion whether the individual parts compose the Hive Mind or vice versa.

It could be an immaterial entity akin to the C'tan with the ability to influence the warp.

C'tan don't exist in the warp, yet they also have no material bodies aside from the later-created necrodermis.
The Emperor doesn't 'exist' in the Warp yet can project the Astronomicon.
Pariahs don't exist in the warp yet they can suppress it.

Either way, It's not necessarily a Warp Entity.

But the C'tan were physical beings, they were made of energy. The Necrodermis housed that energy into a solid shape. Not solid doesn't mean immaterial. They also weren't psychic - because as you said, they don't interact with the warp, and in 40k, psychics interact with the warp.

The Emperor was a physical being with his brain in the physical universe. Anything he did at all psychically was done in the warp.

Pariahs exist in the material universe, their latent ability influences the warp.

Not disuputing any of this. However, psychic energy in 40k is done via the warp. Even Pariahs anti-psychic ability is a warp based ability, simply suppressing it rather than using it. Tyranids have a physical body. The hive mind itself has a physical body - the Tyranid race itself. The hive mind is a psychic brain for the entire race. It has to sit somewhere, and it is a gathering of psychic energy. Psychic energy, in 40k, gathers where? The warp.

Arguing that the Hive Mind exists in the Warp is like saying my gmail emails exist in "the internet" rather than the computers/servers. It's a bit of semantics, but each Tyranid organism is a node that creates the collective internet/hivemind. It's a set of short-wave communications with the awesome-factor turned up to 11.

I'm arguing that since the Pariahs and the Emperor can exist within the material universe and still influence The Warp tremendously, you don't have to be a Warp entity to do such things.

C'tan still don't have physical bodies. There is nothing in the fluff that explicitly says their bodies are made specifically from 'energy'.
Even it it was, 'energy' is not matter. The C'Tan are stated as ethereal beings that are so powerful that they don't notice the matter around them and they consume energy. They are, therefore, not made of matter.
They are also stated explicitly as having no warp-influence.

The Hive Mind could very well be an internet-like amalgam of nodes...
...or it could be a C'Tan-like entity not composed of matter yet not living in the Warp either. Except it's special in that it can see the Warp similar to how Emperor/Pariahs can influence the Warp without being part of it.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Which is probably best considering how much information we don't have.

The hive mind is essentially a network consciousness among a large group of telepaths of various skill, no? What exactly does that have to do with the alternate dimension known as the warp?

Axlbush wrote:Yeah, they've got their legions in tow. A legion of blanks should sure be able to put the boot in. Its unconfirmed whether the nids realise there's more than one legion facing them!

IHatenid, I'm not too clued up on the distances and times we are talking about so its hard to cover that angle. Wouldn't 10000 years be enough time to cross 12 galaxies using warp travel?

The warp is random. 5 seconds could be.

Texan_tyrant wrote:The hive mind is essentially a network consciousness among a large group of telepaths of various skill, no? What exactly does that have to do with the alternate dimension known as the warp?

The fact that everything psychic in 40k uses the warp for its power? Being 'psychic' in 40k means your brain can access and use the power of the warp. An entire race of creatures whos minds make up a collective psychic conciousness? In 40k, where else would it reside than the warp. The thing that muddies the waters is Cruddaces craptastic fluff. It wasn't until his terrible 5th edition book with his reference of 'Tyranids don't use the warp in any discernable way' (note he doesn't say they don't, just not in a way that is obvious to the other races) that all this started up. But hey, it's fluff now.

-Loki- wrote:

Texan_tyrant wrote:The hive mind is essentially a network consciousness among a large group of telepaths of various skill, no? What exactly does that have to do with the alternate dimension known as the warp?

The fact that everything psychic in 40k uses the warp for its power? Being 'psychic' in 40k means your brain can access and use the power of the warp. An entire race of creatures whos minds make up a collective psychic conciousness? In 40k, where else would it reside than the warp. The thing that muddies the waters is Cruddaces craptastic fluff. It wasn't until his terrible 5th edition book with his reference of 'Tyranids don't use the warp in any discernable way' (note he doesn't say they don't, just not in a way that is obvious to the other races) that all this started up. But hey, it's fluff now.

Really? Because I'm looking at my 3rd and 4th ed dexes and both claim that tyranids draw their "psychic" powers from the energies of the Hive Mind, not the warp. Psychic energies, so if telepathy auto-equals warp, then maybe.

Why must they be running from a race, why not a cosmic event?

Perhaps their galaxy is reaching the end of its life; when the dust and gas which forms new stars ends and the theoretical super-massive black hole at the centre of the galaxy begins to draw all matter to itself?

Or, you know, maybe that's where the smart Orks with all the Brainboys are? Imagine that, Orks as they are now, united under a single intelligent leadership, with high-level technology...


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-Loki- wrote:If they give the 6th edition book to Cruddace, I think Tyranid players would all ritually commit suicide.

I know a few who'd commit Cruddicide...

Miraclefish wrote:Why must they be running from a race, why not a cosmic event?

Perhaps their galaxy is reaching the end of its life; when the dust and gas which forms new stars ends and the theoretical super-massive black hole at the centre of the galaxy begins to draw all matter to itself?

Or, you know, maybe that's where the smart Orks with all the Brainboys are? Imagine that, Orks as they are now, united under a single intelligent leadership, with high-level technology...

I shudder at that thought

-Loki- wrote:If they give the 6th edition book to Cruddace, I think Tyranid players would all ritually commit suicide.

I know a few who'd commit Cruddicide...

Lol

*disregard. I am late to the party*


I figured it out!

The Tyranids are running from the lost Legions!

*edit2*
Actually, the idea that one of (its pretty certain one died) the lost Primarchs was sent on a penitent crusade is pretty good. Maybe the Primarch and his legion went to try and fight the Tyranids as the Emperor foresaw the threat. However they failed and the Tyranids have now traced the Primarchs path back to our galaxy.

It should also be noted that human kind populated the galaxy long before the astronomican. They could have been given relic technology or simply used stasis chambers to make the journey.

This theory is rapidly growing on me.

Cosmic event eh? I like that theory. Maybe they are leaving a burnt out galaxy, where the stars have all died.

Maybe they are on a trip to the head office to munch on the man that ruined them. Unfortunately, Cruddace forsaw this and nerfed them so they would never reached the Webway portal under the Golden Throne, and use it to go back in time to eat him. And asll good roadtrips need a Micky D's (local slang for McDonald's) on the way. That's what those galaxies and ours were.

Deadshot wrote:Maybe they are on a trip to the head office to munch on the man that ruined them. Unfortunately, Cruddace forsaw this and nerfed them so they would never reached the Webway portal under the Golden Throne, and use it to go back in time to eat him. And asll good roadtrips need a Micky D's (local slang for McDonald's) on the way. That's what those galaxies and ours were.

This

So we're a Tyrranid drive-thru?

Basically.

If the Tyranids really are running away from something... Chuck Testa , they hate being stuffed.

liquidjoshi wrote:So we're a Tyrranid drive-thru?

Harold and Kumar eat the Milky Way?

Miraclefish wrote:Why must they be running from a race, why not a cosmic event?

Perhaps their galaxy is reaching the end of its life; when the dust and gas which forms new stars ends and the theoretical super-massive black hole at the centre of the galaxy begins to draw all matter to itself?

Or, you know, maybe that's where the smart Orks with all the Brainboys are? Imagine that, Orks as they are now, united under a single intelligent leadership, with high-level technology...


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-Loki- wrote:If they give the 6th edition book to Cruddace, I think Tyranid players would all ritually commit suicide.

I know a few who'd commit Cruddicide...

Except that galaxies don't work that way. They go from irregular, to spiral, to elliptical as their dust depletes, and even when it's all gone it doesn't fall into the central black hole, while the central black hole of a galaxy is integral to it's formation, once a galaxy is fully formed the number of stars and the amount of dust at the centre is vastly more influential gravity wise than the black hole. You could take away the central black hole of the milky way and pretty much feth all would happen to the milky way as a whole.

Even when a galaxy is reduced to red dwarves, brown dwarves, black holes, white dwarves, errant dust clouds, and neutron stars it's in no real danger of collapsing back into it's black hole. And of course the process of a galaxy reaching this state would take longer than the universe has been conduicive to star formation. Yes 40k's grasp on physics is tenuous but that idea is still rather silly.

As for Cruddace, he can go feth himself.

Now as to what the Tyranids are fleeing? A bunch of airless rocks with nothing left to eat. Anything powerful enough to get the Tyranids running with the motive to chase them would likely be able to cut off their escape as well.

Kain wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:Why must they be running from a race, why not a cosmic event?

Perhaps their galaxy is reaching the end of its life; when the dust and gas which forms new stars ends and the theoretical super-massive black hole at the centre of the galaxy begins to draw all matter to itself?

Or, you know, maybe that's where the smart Orks with all the Brainboys are? Imagine that, Orks as they are now, united under a single intelligent leadership, with high-level technology...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:If they give the 6th edition book to Cruddace, I think Tyranid players would all ritually commit suicide.

I know a few who'd commit Cruddicide...

Except that galaxies don't work that way. They go from irregular, to spiral, to elliptical as their dust depletes, and even when it's all gone it doesn't fall into the central black hole, while the central black hole of a galaxy is integral to it's formation, once a galaxy is fully formed the number of stars and the amount of dust at the centre is vastly more influential gravity wise than the black hole. You could take away the central black hole of the milky way and pretty much feth all would happen to the milky way as a whole.

Even when a galaxy is reduced to red dwarves, brown dwarves, black holes, white dwarves, errant dust clouds, and neutron stars it's in no real danger of collapsing back into it's black hole. And of course the process of a galaxy reaching this state would take longer than the universe has been conduicive to star formation. Yes 40k's grasp on physics is tenuous but that idea is still rather silly.

As for Cruddace, he can go feth himself.

Now as to what the Tyranids are fleeing? A bunch of airless rocks with nothing left to eat. Anything powerful enough to get the Tyranids running with the motive to chase them would likely be able to cut off their escape as well.

You are forgetting that no one knows if it is a black hole or Black holes plural at the center. also, because the central region of a galaxy contains he densest formation of star clusters ever seen, the gravetical forces that they produce cancel out the same force the Black hole produces. hence why galaxies are not pulled into the black hole/holes.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Kain wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:Why must they be running from a race, why not a cosmic event?

Perhaps their galaxy is reaching the end of its life; when the dust and gas which forms new stars ends and the theoretical super-massive black hole at the centre of the galaxy begins to draw all matter to itself?

Or, you know, maybe that's where the smart Orks with all the Brainboys are? Imagine that, Orks as they are now, united under a single intelligent leadership, with high-level technology...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:If they give the 6th edition book to Cruddace, I think Tyranid players would all ritually commit suicide.

I know a few who'd commit Cruddicide...

Except that galaxies don't work that way. They go from irregular, to spiral, to elliptical as their dust depletes, and even when it's all gone it doesn't fall into the central black hole, while the central black hole of a galaxy is integral to it's formation, once a galaxy is fully formed the number of stars and the amount of dust at the centre is vastly more influential gravity wise than the black hole. You could take away the central black hole of the milky way and pretty much feth all would happen to the milky way as a whole.

Even when a galaxy is reduced to red dwarves, brown dwarves, black holes, white dwarves, errant dust clouds, and neutron stars it's in no real danger of collapsing back into it's black hole. And of course the process of a galaxy reaching this state would take longer than the universe has been conduicive to star formation. Yes 40k's grasp on physics is tenuous but that idea is still rather silly.

As for Cruddace, he can go feth himself.

Now as to what the Tyranids are fleeing? A bunch of airless rocks with nothing left to eat. Anything powerful enough to get the Tyranids running with the motive to chase them would likely be able to cut off their escape as well.

You are forgetting that no one knows if it is a black hole or Black holes plural at the center. also, because the central region of a galaxy contains he densest formation of star clusters ever seen, the gravetical forces that they produce cancel out the same force the Black hole produces. hence why galaxies are not pulled into the black hole/holes.

From our observations of the center of the galaxy we have been able to surmise that the central black hole of the milky way has a mass of 1-5 million suns. This seems big, but the galactic core has the mass of dozens of billions of suns. The Black Hole played a role in forming the galaxy by drawing the matter into it's current position. It is now an infintisemally small contributor of mass to the galactic center. It has no more importance in the current structure of the milky way than an individual heart cell will have on the functioning of your heart. And also if gravity worked like that the planets would have crashed into the sun. Black holes do not "suck" they attract and unless you are past the event horizon (the actual "black" part) it is perfectly possible to prevent oneself from falling in and assume a stable orbit. Despite the fact that the black hole has extremely strong gravity, the inertia of the orbiting stars is more than enough to keep them from having any real chance of falling in unless their orbital path is altered somehow.

While under a big crunch scenario a galaxy may collapse into it's own central black hole, this would take billions upon billions of years, several times longer than the universe has been a thing, and even then the big crunch is no longer considered anything more than an incredibly remote possibility due to the fact that there is simply so much more gravity cancelling and space stretching dark energy than net gravity producing matter. So if the material cosmology of the 40k verse is in anyway similar to ours, the thought of the Tyranids fleeing a galaxy that is dead and devoid of consumable life for any reason other than their own overconsumption is a tad absurd. Cosmic events are big, but even the biggest super massive black hole or gamma ray burst is peanuts on a galactic scale.

-Loki- wrote:The hive mind is a psychic collective consiousness (or, as you put it, a gestalt consiousness). It's not some physical being somewhere in the material plane like the Zerg Overmind, it's purely the psychic collection of the minds of every Tyranid. There's no other place for it to reside than the warp.

Considering the Shadow in the Warp is the 'noise' from their communication, it's a logical assumption that it actually is the Hive Mind.

Correct that the Hive Mind is a psychic collective consciousness, but I really doubt that it's in the Warp. It exists in the Materium. Just because something is "psychic" doesn't mean it's Warp-based necessarily. The fact that Tyranid psychic abilities do not draw from the Warp is evidence enough.

-Loki- wrote:The Shadow in the Warp is the communication ofevery single Tyranid sitting in the warp. That's why it interferes with everything else - it's nothing else can get through the 'noise' of the comminucation.

Indeed. Human psykers actually are capable of creating the same effect, and it's even a rahter common psychic power (moreso than tossing thunderbolts or fireballs in fact). It's just in a far, far smaller scale and generally far less powerful.


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Harriticus wrote:The fact that Tyranid psychic abilities do not draw from the Warp is evidence enough.

By definition, all psychic abilities draw from the warp. The fact that Blanks nullify Tyranid psychic powers proves that they are warp-based.

Harriticus wrote:

-Loki- wrote:The hive mind is a psychic collective consiousness (or, as you put it, a gestalt consiousness). It's not some physical being somewhere in the material plane like the Zerg Overmind, it's purely the psychic collection of the minds of every Tyranid. There's no other place for it to reside than the warp.

Considering the Shadow in the Warp is the 'noise' from their communication, it's a logical assumption that it actually is the Hive Mind.

Correct that the Hive Mind is a psychic collective consciousness, but I really doubt that it's in the Warp. It exists in the Materium. Just because something is "psychic" doesn't mean it's Warp-based necessarily. The fact that Tyranid psychic abilities do not draw from the Warp is evidence enough.

Then where is it praytell? Are you trying to imply that there is some sort of physical giant brain or that it's in yet another parallel dimension? Which would in fact contradict virtually every bit of fluff concerning psychic powers and the tyranid hive mind ever written? The Hive Mind is in the warp, all psychic things are, but a lot of people seem to be confused about the wording in the 5th ed codex. I'll see if I can provide an interpretation that will make sense.

All psychic powers draw from the warp, and the psychic chatter of the linked conciousness of all tyranid organisms is the hivemind, which if the warp was an ocean, the hive mind and it's shadow would be an enormous school of predatory fish that rip anything that try to cross it's path apart. The tyranids' physical bodies draw from the hive mind's warp presence, which is essentially like a lamprey sucking the blood out of another fish. Ultimately, it's still from the warp, but it's filtered through the hivemind first.

@ Melissa

Citation required.


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Personnaly, I don.not.like this idea that the hive mind is.a collective concious of all tyranids. Termagants can't access this by themselves. They need synapse.creatures. Everything in the last two codexes points to the Hive Mind being a singluar organism.

Deadshot wrote: @ Melissa

Citation required.

When Jurgen was brought near the Broodlord in the first Ciaphas Cain novel, all the genestealers had a momentary freakout as he disrupted the brood telepathy. Now admittedly a brood mind is to the Hive Mind proper as a guppy is to a whale shark, but he disrupted it nontheless. The Tyranids in Duty Calls also seemed to react rather poorly to his presence, typically it was the Tyranids who had some ability to think for themselves anyway who even dared to get near him in the first place.