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OK.. Here is the situation that I am looking for advice on..

I have been working on painting up my SM force for a couple weeks..

I have painted (but not clearcoated) a Tac squad, Assault Sq, Termie Sq, Dread, and Command Sq

I picked up some Krylon Crystal Clear finishing coat, to finish off my models.

Now, all my models have been painted, using current citadel paints, over Krylon black, and had been painted and dry for over a week.

I did this following at the same time of day, and let them dry in the same place.. (garage)

I coated the Assault squad and dread first, and they came out looking just the way I anticipated. I was thrilled.

Last night, I coated the Command Sq and Tac squad. This morning, I was horrified to find out that the coating spray had turned gray on the models, and all the paint on the models looks cloudy gray. This stinks, cause I was using Purple, Black and Gold as a scheme...

Any ideas what might have happened?

I am THINKING that since it was a humid night and we had some rain, that may enter into the equation. However, they were kept in the garage, instead of left out on the picnic table in the back yard.

The clear coat did fine the first time, and was a brand new can..

Next issue.. HOW to recover from this.. my heart sinks when I contemplate having to re-paint the models. Or worse, buying and re-construct the command squad.

As an aside, I have tried using GW transfers on my models, but after they dry, there is a little halo around them where the decal paper sits.. and when this spray hit the models on the tac squad, it became really obvious..

Help please!!

-Porkuslime

Do you have any zip kicker handy? I've heard of bad clear coat jobs being corrected by spraying the models with a bit of super glue accelerator.

Is Zip Kicker a spray? I have seen in the the store, but thought it was a glue tube sized item..

I am willing to give it a try, but would like to hear if other folks also have heard of this technique.

course, if the models are hosed anyhow..

-P

I've heard that if you put some gloss coat over the models and then matt seal them again it gets rid of the cloudy effect.

Okay, Porky... YMMV...

I've had this problem and I overcame it.

First off, FYI, it was the humidity.
Leaving them in the garage didn't help. You should have brought them into the house after spraying them (spray in the garage/outside, dry inside). Having them in the garage didn't help as, if your garage is like mine and nearly every other garage in America, your heating/AC does not extend there. Whatever the weather and temperature are like outside is generally mimicked inside (barring outright precipitation, unless you need a new roof LOL).

So, when I had this problem, here's how I fixed it: Water.

I got a clean cup full of clean tap water, a paper towel (folded into quarters) and a VERY VERY soft bristled brush. I just used a cheapo brush that was about half the size of a tank brush.

Dip the brush into the water, then lightly touch it to the quartered paper towel to leech some of the water out of the brush. The brush should be wet enough that, if you run it across a surface, it will leave a little water behind but not so much that it drips or leaves large droplets behind.
Then, you simply "paint" the model with the water.

I had to do each model three times to get all of the grayish haze off of them, but it worked for me.

As far as your decals are concerned, I have another trick for you.
If you don't want the edges of the decals to show when they're hit with light that *certain* way, then paint over the edges once they're dry. I just use the color that's below the transfer and paint it on top of the transfer around the edges. I usually try to get that color all the way up to the actual graphic, but not always.
Totally eliminates that issue.

Let me know how the water trick works for you.

Eric

I assume you "water paint" similarly to drybrushing?

Which tactic are you thinking bout?
Water.. then let it dry.. then water again?

Or would it be water paint the whole figure and immediately do it again?

I can hardly wait to get home to try this.. it sounds simple enough that I could do it..

Porkuslime, this is from the Dakka article on "finishing touches":

Decals do not usually adhere well to a matte surface. They need a smooth, glossy surface. The way to achieve this is to paint the areas that will receive decals with gloss varnish. Wait for it to dry, then apply the decals, using a decal softener if possible. Decal softeners are produced by Microsol, and are found in specialist hobby shops. Make sure you gently press the decal into place, so there's no air trapped underneath. It's important to varnish the model after the decals have set, both to remove the gloss effect, and to ensure that they won't become brittle and flake off.

Hope it helps!

I am actually in favor of the zip kicker method. I know that zip kicker re-wets paints, so using it to do jus tthat should allow you the opportunity to let the models dry inside where the humidity won't screw you?

Prehaps you could do one model in each methosd and let us know how it turns out?

I've had this happen to me too.
Weather was not a factor for me. I live in VA, humidity is atrocious.
I paint inside, I spray outside in all weather then come back in... etc.

First, make sure your models are dry, obviously.

The one thing I can recommend is to make sure you shake your spray cans THOROUGHLY before using. This step alone has alleviated all of my "clouding" problems.
And I don't mean shake for 30 seconds, I mean 2 mins or so to really get the stuff mixed up in there.

As for the decals I don't follow convention there either but there seems to be some real good advice on those.

Sorry to hear about this, I don't have any advice about the clear coat issue. I don't like them, I don't use them and I don't recommend using them. I've heard way too many horror stories and this just adds to that.

Anyway... I do have the answer for your decal problem. Check out my blog Pit of the Oni I just happened to have posted an entry on decals.

porkuslime wrote:I assume you "water paint" similarly to drybrushing?

Which tactic are you thinking bout?
Water.. then let it dry.. then water again?

Or would it be water paint the whole figure and immediately do it again?

I can hardly wait to get home to try this.. it sounds simple enough that I could do it..

Not quite.
Actually, it's more like "Wet the whole damned thing thoroughly. Allow to dry. Repeat as necessary."
Just cover it in water.
The good news is that, as it IS clear coated, that will keep the water from degrading your paint... at least, it did for me.

RonSaikowski wrote:I've had this happen to me too.
Weather was not a factor for me. I live in VA, humidity is atrocious.
I paint inside, I spray outside in all weather then come back in... etc.

Hmm. Small world.
What part of VA?
I was, in fact, living in Richmond, VA when I had to come up with this answer.
Even spraying outside then coming inside didn't save me. :(
The fact that basements are something rarely seen in Richmond caused me the headache. If I'd had a basement, I wouldn't have had that problem. LOL

Porky, let me know if it works for you!

Eric

Well, I have found that humidity can effect it. But not as much as putting the coats on too heavy, or didn't allow enough Flash Time between coats.

MagickalMemories wrote:
The fact that basements are something rarely seen in Richmond caused me the headache. If I'd had a basement, I wouldn't have had that problem. LOL

Try finding one in Florida! Garage: Basement:

Humidity could be the cause, but can-shaking definitely affects performance. I haven't had issues with cloudiness, just fuzziness/stringing, but after hearing this a paint on varnish sounds better and better...

What I have found for the decals, use Testers Model Masters clear parts cement @window maker.
Put a small drop where the decal is going, wet a paint brush and work the drop around a little. Apply the decal and use the paint brush to push the decal around and "paint" the glue over the top of the decal. Then dab a paper towel at the edges to soak up the excess water. After it dries spray with matte varnish in low humidity.

just a guess, leaving them in the garage caused it, not a good idea.

also, with the transfers, the new WD covers that in tale of 4 gamers, with the eldar he used transfers, then simply painted around them to get rid of the edge.
and that also helps to keep them in place as after time they flake and fall off.

JD21290 wrote:also, with the transfers, the new WD covers that in tale of 4 gamers, with the eldar he used transfers, then simply painted around them to get rid of the edge.

Wow! Spectacular advice. Absolutely genius! LOL

JD21290 wrote:and that also helps to keep them in place as after time they flake and fall off.

A coat or 2 of varnish will do that, as well. That's why, when I use transfers, they go on BEFORE the sealant.


Eric

oni wrote:Anyway... I do have the answer for your decal problem. Check out my blog Pit of the Oni I just happened to have posted an entry on decals.

Here, let me quote myself since everyone seems to have completely over looked my post.

On my way home from work last night, I grabbed some of the Micro Set.. just have not had a chance to experiment with it yet.. and when I do I was planning on letting you know how it went. I had never heard of the stuff... but according to my FLGS, it is really good for those who do model railroading..

I appreicate you pointing it out to me

-Porkuslime

oni wrote:

oni wrote:Anyway... I do have the answer for your decal problem. Check out my blog Pit of the Oni I just happened to have posted an entry on decals.

Here, let me quote myself since everyone seems to have completely over looked my post.

Well, first off, "the Pit" is a blogspot page. I'm posting from work during the day and, so, cannot access blogspot.

Second, and this is the important thing, whatever your answer is, it's not the only answer. Just because you gave AN answer... or, technically, a LINK to an answer, that doesn't mean it's the BEST or ONLY answer.

Eric

OK.. here is a picture of one of the original models, with the cloudy effect..

this is what I was trying to repair..

MM suggested a multiple water wash.. drying and wiping between washing...

so, took a test model, and after 10 water washes, it still looked bad.. (Sorry MM.. didn't work)

So, I went out and got some Zip Kicker.. the chap at the LGS had heard of this technique.. other folks in the store swore by it..

so... came home.. low humidity day.. and zapped one. an hour later.. NO cloudyness!!!!!! whoo hoo!

Did the remainder of the squad and the command buggers.. and they look SO much better..

so.. I heartily recommend the zip kicker to anyone else who has a problem similar to this..

(and thanks in advance to anyone who does NOT bash on my lousy painting skills.. lol)

-Porkuslime

Dont use zip kicker on a freshly painted model, I wouldnt want to risk messing it up.

Just spray it again very heavily and then bring it in.

The effect isnt changing color, its fog. Its because the surface gets so rough it distorts the light bouncing off of it. Its sort of like how a car gets dull. The color didnt change the surface changed. It gets rough and light reflects in every direction. When you wax a car it makes it perfectly smooth and light reflects true again.

So, like I said, a heavy second coat will go over it and dry smooth, on top of the bad coat. You will actually see an instant result as the wet varnish is very slick and smooth.

Hope it helps!

PS, your minis look great, and I can tell you put a lot of time and effort into them, however if you would like to make the metals look ten times better in about five minutes hit them with straight from the pot Badab Black for the silver and Sepia for the gold. Devlan Mud will make a higher contrast but darker gold. Its up to you. Its easy and fun!

Excellent - glad to hear the zip kicker worked! So, did you re-seal after using the zip kicker?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Excellent - glad to hear the zip kicker worked! So, did you re-seal after using the zip kicker?

yep.. about an hour after zipkicking.. carefully shook the clearcoat for 4 minutes.. hit the models.. and brought em straight into the AC basement.. and 30 minutes later.. moved em into the DONE pile.. (aka army transport)

I am so thrilled this worked.. not only did it save me the time to have to re-paint.. but it might also have saved me the cost of having to re-build and repurchase the models.

-Porkuslime

Wow!

Your clouding is terribly worse than mine was.

I see a difference in the "water-paint" model, but not much... about the same amount that mine was hazy. LOL

Yours looked like you hit them with a coat of gray paint. Dang.

Good job on getting it fixed... and those minis are better than MANY I've seen.


Eric

GMMStudios wrote:

PS, your minis look great, and I can tell you put a lot of time and effort into them, however if you would like to make the metals look ten times better in about five minutes hit them with straight from the pot Badab Black for the silver and Sepia for the gold. Devlan Mud will make a higher contrast but darker gold. Its up to you. Its easy and fun!

I take it those are washes or inks?

One of the issues I have with shading, highlighting, and all those fiddly techniques for making models look lifelike etc.. I cannot do. My vision is pretty bad, even with corrective lenses, and bold, bright colors are easier for me to see. I tried to do a shading effect on a test model a while back, and could not tell a difference, although my daughter could. I just don't have that level of detail in my eyes.

So.. a nice cohesive force that I can tell the squads apart on the table are my priorities.

Bearing that in mind.. how would I use those colors to make my metallics "pop".. never having done washes or ink type painting..

-Porkuslime

Than ks a lot for posting all the picks! That really shows us what worked and what didn't. So many times you see advice the looks just odd enough to work but you don't know if you want to try it with your precious models. Really nice to have some visible proof as to what has worked and what didn't.

Yeah, that was some bad a$$ clouding. But now that you guniea pigged your models I now have some zip kicking to do to a certain chaplain when I get home!!!

yeah,
Sorry to bring this up again, but I've had this problem yesterday with a brand new can of purity seal. I sprayed up three gretchin buggies in a box indoors and two hours later it looked like I dusted them in white primer.

I thought maybe the propellant had stuck to the varnish!
Also I had used Forgeworld powders and white spirit... I waited for the spirit to evaporate, but is that the cause of my problems? Is it possible I'm confusing different problems?

I tried MagickalMememorie's water wash meathod with a nail brush, and it worked to a extent... it looked perfect while wet. when dried a fair bit of white was still there, I rewashed twice more but this did nothing..

So I left them over night to dry and today, I tried GMMstudios respray and again perfect when wet but when it dried the white mess has returned..
this makes me think that it can't be the white sprits, since they were used two days before and should be under the first coat of varnish... I think I might just have a bad can of spray

So anyway I'm back to square 1 - Ugly white mini's. they actuall feel dusty to touch!


Does Anyone know what to do?
I'll can try the zip kicker if i can find somewhere that sells it in the uk.
I wonder if i can try varnishing again with a paint on non spray varnish? or army painter dip?

But with all the varnish already on these models it's going to be impossible to pick out details on the grot drivers and gunners, as they still require finnishing...I only wanted to seal in the FW powders!
It's looking like I need to strip and repaint... gutted.. I was painting these for a tourny I'm playing in on saturday.

Panic...

I think that Maelstrom might have Zip Kicker.. I think..

However, one quick solution that I tried after I LOST the can of ZK, was to hit the models a second time with another layer of spraycoat. Why not take a minute to try one of the models with a medium-heavy run thru with the Purity seal, if it doesn't work you are out some PS, and only have to heavily strip one model.

I ended up having to do that on a Drop Pod.. and it worked amazingly well..

-P