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yeah,
Reading through IA8 and I noticed that in the Grot Tank Battle Mob entry it says they are a Codex Orks unit!

IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem wrote:Grot Tank Mobs may be taken as an Elite choice in a Codex Ork army, as long as the army also contains at least one Big Mek

two other unitswith the codex wording

IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem wrote:In a Codex Orks Army, a squadron of 1-3 Big Trakks may be chosen as a single heavy support choice

IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem wrote:In a Codex Orks Army, a squadron of 1-5 Gun Trukks may be chosen as a single heavy support choice

I then noticed they did the same thing in Imperial Armour ApocalypseII for the new Tau XV-9

Imperial Armour ApocalypseII wrote: 1-3 XV-9 Hazards are a single Fast Attack choice for a Codex: Tau Empire army

This contrasts against similar IA statments that seem to be there purely to limit the units to fluffy armies:

IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem wrote:A Meka Dread may be chosen as a Heavy Support choice in a standard ork army which also contains at least one other Mega-Dread.

IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem wrote:A Gun Wagon squadron of 1-3 Gun Wagons is a heavy support choice for a ork army

Imperial Armour ApocalypseII wrote:A Squadron of Blight Drones is a Fast Attack Choice for a Chaos Daemons army or a Chaos Space Marines army that includes at least one squad of plaguemarines.

The difference seems to be the first to examples are adding the unit to the codex, While the second examples from the same books are mearly saying while you are playing with IA books your units are limited as follows...

As IA books are official GW warhammer expansions, are these units now added to their regular codex?

Most people think of IA books as a amongst friends only expansions... but do these units change that?
If they didn't intend for these units to be a codex update, Why use the word Codex at all?
What do you think?

Panic...

Lots of update to fix the poll wording and my spelling... and the fact I noticed there are two entries for the Mekboy Junka just to confuse everything...

IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem page 131 wrote:In a Codex Orks Army, a Mekboy Junka may be taken as an Elite choice or as a dedicated transport option for a Ork Big Mek.

IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem page 189 wrote:A Mekboy Junka may be taken as an Elite choice in a Ork army, or as a dedicated transport option for a Ork Big Mek.

i think that if these books say they are now part of the standard codex then as long as you tell your opponents and show them where its stated then there is absolutly no way they can argue

I don't play in tourney's so I can't really comment on that aspect but I can't help but think that if it says these units are for codex armies then there's a good chance they'll actually be in the next codex for that force and that makes me very happy just thinking about it.

I'm all for it, I'd love to see more of the hazard suits especially seeing as I think pirahnas look daft

yeah,
I updated my post alot with the other entries that add the unit to the ork codex. I've also found a confusing/conflicting second entry for the Mekboy Junka!

The thing to remember is that most of the IA units don't have a statement at all. Can someone post their reasoning behind their 'No- the units are not codex legal' votes?

PAnic...

I think it's a marked change in the way they state rules. If you go back to Vraks, all of their 'new' units were specifically for their 'new' armies.

So the Hades Breaching Drill was a Troops choice for only the Siege Regiment List in the Siege of Vraks books.

Recently, from IA:Apocalypse and forward, they've been specifically listed as being an option for 'any IG army'.

Evidence would suggest that these are now intended to be legal additions to the codex. However, obviously any TO can still set his own rules. I'd guess that, unless the tournament rules specifically state you CAN'T use IA units, they're legal...

yeah,
The cover of Imperial armour ApocalypseII says;
"new rules for warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse."

Some units say something like 'this is a ork heavy support choice' so you know it's a ork heavy support; should you be using a FOC in your apoc games or if a mission rule or a special ability effects a certain type of unit eg 'all heavy support units must start deployed?'
But things like the Grey Knights Land Raider Redeemer rules, go further than this;

IA Apocalypse II wrote:A Grey Knights Land Raider Redeemer is a Heavy Support Choice for a Codex DaemonHunters army.

Clearly this says that it's a valid choice for a Codex DaemonHunters army... Why say Codex, unless the intention is to add it to the Codex?

My only concern is that many new good units may be added to a codex only via expensive hardback books.
I think that if these are valid additions to a current codex they should be included in the GW FAQ for that Codex.

Panic...

It's really up to who is organizing the events. If you and your friends are organizing games in your basement, it's up to you to allow them. If you're going to a tournament, it's up to the tournament organizer.

I'd imagine most tournament organizers will tend towards not allowing them, as there's still the conception that FW units are somehow broken, or make it too much into 'who spent more on FW' (which, considering the base GW prices, is a rather silly argument, but that's what people say anyway.)

If these are widely accepted in GW stores, then that just about will get me back into 40k, after my fantasy.

I'm biased, I want these units to be a normal part of my army. I play Tau and just about any new option is refreshing. They aren't game breaking, hell they aren't amazing, but it'll get me to dust off my Tau and start playing again if I can get my FLGS to agree to it.

The only argument to be made against it (that I can think of at this hour at any rate) is that the IA books are somehow an expansion. You don't see anyone running apocalypse, city fight, planetstrike or battle mission tournaments (at least not yet ).

The way these units are worded indicates this will be smoothed out in their respective 5th editions, but until that happens I'll press for this to be the way of things.

In my opinion, if it says that it's an addition to the codex, it should be acceptable everywhere. That being said, I've made my own Mega Deff Dread from some unwanted defiler parts and used it in a couple of friendly games without much controversy, because I brought it up before I made my army list and let my opponent read over the rules. Five guntrucks in a squadron? I've got to get that book. I hope that the Mega Deff Dread rules aren't too different than the experimental ones that FW made available for download on their website. It's a beast!

The wording doesn't say that these units are part of the codex, or will become part of the codex. It just says they may be taken in an army built from the codex.

That said, I don't understand why anyone would object to FW units in a friendly game. Most are underpowered and fluffy. Tournaments are a different matter, I can understand those should be limited to codex only, since those contain enough rules already

I like FW stuff, and I think their books add a great wealth of fluff and insight into the 40k world, as well as an expanding dynamic to 40k that GW itself can't satisfy alone.
@Panic: While we're on the subject would you mind giving a review of sorts for IA8, or know of any good reviews out there. IYO, will this book make Ravenguard, ork, and EDT players happy?

Shrubs wrote:The wording doesn't say that these units are part of the codex, or will become part of the codex. It just says they may be taken in an army built from the codex.

Exactly. I'm not sure exactly where the idea that anything in IA is now codex legal came from, that's a pretty big conclusion to leap to as it doesn't say these units are codex units, only that they can be used with that army.

It's basically just another way of saying the exact same thing as far as I'm concerned, it's just more "professional" I guess to say "...can be used with a Codex: Ork army" instead of "...can be used with an Ork army". It works the same as it always has, FW isn't codex legal.

Shrubs wrote:Most are underpowered and fluffy.

That I disagree with. True for some units maybe, but not "most" of them.

All IA stuff is legal, they do not require permission, and anyone can use them.

There are some caveats with that of course:

1. Apoc formations would only be available in Apoc games, obviously.
2. Super-Heavies require games of 2000+ points, they cannot be used in games lower.



People often claim that they require permission, even when the books themselves say they don't (check AI1 and AI2, really!) because people are afraid of losing (but pretend they aren't), and think that FW presents and opportunity for abusing rules (when they don't). When challenged, these same people who are afraid of losing (but pretend they aren't) will often fall back on the argument of 'it's just giving people who can afford them an advantage', which is a hilarious (and also not true).

This is not to say that common courtesy shouldn't play a part. Flyers change the dynamics of the game considerably, and proper AA mounts are few and far between, so anyone who springs flyers on someone (unless it's something harmless like an Arvus or Aquila) is probably being a bit of a dick. Same goes for showing up for a pickup game at your FLSG for a 2000 point game with a Stormblade in tow.

FW is something that should be used by everyone because it's fun. Threads like these should never, ever be necessary.

H.B.M.C. wrote:This is not to say that common curtsey shouldn't play a part.

I refuse to curtsey to anyone just to use my Mega-Dread!!! I'll punch 'em in their freakin' face!!! And don't get me started about those adorable little grot tanks.

yeah,
HBMC- Dude I totally get that, but maybe FW are trying to challenge this 'permission only' chain of thought by adding this codex text to smaller FW units to gain acceptance as regular codex choices. Like the DaemonHunters LandRaider, I see no reason why GW/FW would want this to be a special games only unit. that text to me says it's a codex choice. They have not added this text to any super heavies or the new bigger ork tanks.

I also agree with your ideas of providing a pre-game heads up for these units...

Shrubs wrote:...Tournaments are a different matter, I can understand those should be limited to codex only, since those contain enough rules already

I agree with your tournament thoughts, I would Like these units added to a codex via a FAQ or a White Dwarf article, I'm assuming the new eldar NightSpinner will be codex legal?
Are people going cry into their cornflakes and say that's it an illegal eldar army choice since it's not printed in Codex Eldar?

Shrubs wrote:The wording doesn't say that these units are part of the codex, or will become part of the codex. It just says they may be taken in an army built from the codex...

Sidstyler wrote:Exactly. I'm not sure exactly where the idea that anything in IA is now codex legal came from, that's a pretty big conclusion to leap to as it doesn't say these units are codex units, only that they can be used with that army.
It's basically just another way of saying the exact same thing as far as I'm concerned, it's just more "professional" I guess to say "...can be used with a Codex: Ork army" instead of "...can be used with an Ork army". It works the same as it always has, FW isn't codex legal...

I disagree with the intention here, why say codex? We already know we are dealing with IA units for the ork race...

I've noticed that in the IA army list the grot tank mob is in the fast attack section, but the text at the bottom says it is also a codex orks elite choice... So;
If your using the IA8 dread mob list it's a Fast Attack choice.
If your using Codex Orks it's a Elite choice.

Why go to this ammount of trouble? why use the word Codex?

warpcrafter wrote:I refuse to curtsey to anyone just to use my Mega-Dread!!! I'll punch 'em in their freakin' face!!! And don't get me started about those adorable little grot tanks.

Yeah,
Oh yes... Stompy... I have two Mega dreads on my work table getting bashed into my rebel grot army.

The rules for Grot Tanks are very cool, basically they are slow ork buggies 10/10/10 with a 5++ save. they lose TL weapons but gain BS3... for 40pts = bargain!
I'm deciding does my BigGrotMek want 6 grot tanks or 12 grot tanks!

Panic...

H.B.M.C. wrote:All IA stuff is legal, they do not require permission, and anyone can use them.

There are some caveats with that of course:

1. Apoc formations would only be available in Apoc games, obviously.
2. Super-Heavies require games of 2000+ points, they cannot be used in games lower.



People often claim that they require permission, even when the books themselves say they don't (check AI1 and AI2, really!) because people are afraid of losing (but pretend they aren't), and think that FW presents and opportunity for abusing rules (when they don't). When challenged, these same people who are afraid of losing (but pretend they aren't) will often fall back on the argument of 'it's just giving people who can afford them an advantage', which is a hilarious (and also not true).

This is not to say that common curtsey shouldn't play a part. Flyers change the dynamics of the game considerably, and proper AA mounts are few and far between, so anyone who springs flyers on someone (unless it's something harmless like an Arvus or Aquila) is probably being a bit of a dick. Same goes for showing up for a pickup game at your FLSG for a 2000 point game with a Stormblade in tow.

FW is something that should be used by everyone because it's fun. Threads like these should never, ever be necessary.

This post wins thew thread.

I don't know about the rest of you but when I make a list I use Codex Orks to do so.

IA 8 states that when doing so certain units my be taken as part of such list.

Thus these units are perfectly legal and I do not require permission to do so.

Seems pretty black and white to me, and anyone who argues can stuff their flying dreadnoughts and marines riding wolves straight up their asses...

Just an off-the-wall thought here, but could this also be part of the Spearhead release?

As I understand it the Nightspinner is being lifted from IA rules into Codex armies for Spearhead, so I wonder if some of these other light/medium armour units will be included in the Spearhead formations?

It'd be an quick 'n' easy way to get a big variety of new units, plus they'd sell a bunch of shiny resin kits to us suckers.

Panic wrote:yeah,
I updated my post alot with the other entries that add the unit to the ork codex. I've also found a confusing/conflicting second entry for the Mekboy Junka!

The thing to remember is that most of the IA units don't have a statement at all. Can someone post their reasoning behind their 'No- the units are not codex legal' votes?

PAnic...

Because GW has said over and over and over that FW is not official for regular 40k? FW puts out rules and models in a vacuum. They don't answer to the rest of GW. The models are cool, and I don't think most of them are unbalanced, (yet), but they are not official.

For friendly games, sure. If your local store or TO approves them for use, sure. But past that, you should not expect to walk into a game with FW models and a FW book, and say your opponent has no choice but to accept them as official.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
[I agree with your tournament thoughts, I would Like these units added to a codex via a FAQ or a White Dwarf article, I'm assuming the new eldar NightSpinner will be codex legal?
Are people going cry into their cornflakes and say that's it an illegal eldar army choice since it's not printed in Codex Eldar?]

Considering the rules will be in White Dwarf next month, I doubt there is going to be problem with it. IFF rules for the FW models also appear in WD, then they would also be accepted.

Oh, and the other thing. It's been mentioned by others, but I forgot.

Tournament Organisers are free to allow and disallow anything they damned well please. Imperial Armour units don't have any special exemption or inclusion in this. A TO could just as easily ban Codex: Space Marines, and it would be no more or less different than saying "No FW units". Whether that TO gets anyone to show up to his tournament after banning Codex: Space Marines, that's a different matter altogether.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh, and the other thing. It's been mentioned by others, but I forgot.

Tournament Organisers are free to allow and disallow anything they damned well please. Imperial Armour units don't have any special exemption or inclusion in this. A TO could just as easily ban Codex: Space Marines, and it would be no more or less different than saying "No FW units". Whether that TO gets anyone to show up to his tournament after banning Codex: Space Marines, that's a different matter altogether.

Not quite. It would be laughable for a TO to ban Codex:Space Marines. 100% of TO's and tournaments allow it to be used. It's rare that FW units are allowed in tournaments, and excluding them is expecte. So obviously the two things are not equivalent.

And in the end, it doesn't matter one bit what each persons opinion is. If it's a tournament, it's going to be up to the TO. Currently, the overwhelming majority of TO's don't allow IA. One reason being that most players and TO's don't own the IA books.

yeah,

mikhaila wrote:Because GW has said over and over and over that FW is not official for regular 40k? FW puts out rules and models in a vacuum. They don't answer to the rest of GW.

Can you Link me to where GW/FW has said this? I have all the IA books what page is that on?

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,

mikhaila wrote:Because GW has said over and over and over that FW is not official for regular 40k? FW puts out rules and models in a vacuum. They don't answer to the rest of GW.

Can you Link me to where GW/FW has said this? I have all the IA books what page is that on?

Panic...

Turn it around: Quote me in the 40k rulebook, or a WD article, or GW FAQ or Errata where it says IA are legal. When was the last GW run GT where FW rules were legal?

FW is a separate part of GW. They don't answer to the studio. Now, would FW really like to have all of their stuff legal in standard 40k and WFB as soon as they make it? Sure. It would let them sell a hell of a lot more models. But they aren't the studio, they don't work with the guys that make the rules, write the codices, or the main rulebooks. They don't answer to the regular GW studio, but at the same time, their models are not automatically legal in regular GW games.

If GW wants them legal, it would only take adding a couple of paragraphs to the 40k FAQ/Errat, or publishing a White Dwarf article. But they haven't.

Adepticon is the premier event that allows FW. Almost, no other tournament bar Gladiator style ones, uses FW.

The reason is that FW and IA are not readily available to the majority of players.

yeah,
If GW has said 'over and over and over' can you tell me where they said this? just one of the places will do.



I draw your attention to the logos in the bottom corner or the book covers, these are official expansions for 40k.

ApocalypseII book wrote:Imperial Armour Apocalypse II is a 112 page, full-colour hardback which provides comprehensive and updated descriptions, background and rules for using all of Forge World's recent models in your games of Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse

Can you link me to the GW claim that FW works in a bubble? Or is this just hearsay and rumors that you've heard?

Panic...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkness wrote:Adepticon is the premier event that allows FW. Almost, no other tournament bar Gladiator style ones, uses FW. The reason is that FW and IA are not readily available to the majority of players.

FW is available to everyone with a internet connection!

Can you link me to the GW claim that FW works in a bubble? Or is this just hearsay and rumors that you've heard?

Panic...

Yeah, lots of hearsay and rumors, after talking to GW 3 times a week for two decades, and having lunch down at GW HQ with various CEOs and Promotion directors.)

You want it legal, go prove it to the guys you play with. Just saying "It doesn't say it isn't legal in the IA books" isn't good enough.

yeah,
Right now it's 60% yes 40% no...
Why should the Majority prove to the Minority that IA units are game legal?

Especialy IA units that specifically say they are additions to a codex army!?
Which is why i'm asking to see it wrote somewhere that GW thinks that FW is just for gaks&Giggles with your friends.

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
Right now it's 60% yes 40% no...
Why should the Majority prove to the Minority that IA units are game legal?
Panic...

I wasn't aware that rules were written by the majority vote of people reading a thread on Dakka.)

yeah,
That wasn't my point. I've shown you where IA says it's units are made for 40k.

Can you show me where you've seen 'GW say over and over and over that FW is not official for regular 40k?' or was it rumours from your chit chat with yank GW CEOS?

Panic...