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lord_blackfang wrote:I'm watching this thread, and I really need to ask. What's actually stopping you people from playing Epic, Necromunda or BFG if you love them so much? It's not like GW doesn't sell the models. It's not like the rules aren't freakin' free to download. So what's the problem?

I can understand wanting Warhammer Quest since it's a board game and needs a board. Everything else is playable with the resources GW and/or the fan community provides as long as you don't need to be spoon-fed.

I played 6 games of Necromunda this Saturday using only materials currently in production. Just saying.

Likely?

Finding opponents.

What's keeping me is the interest level of my gaming group. We love skirmish scale games, but no one else seems particularly interested in Necro.

I'm not totally sure, but it seems to be a combination of:
1) Cost of Necromunda figures compared to the stuff we usually buy and play with.
2) Some folks aren't into GW fluff
3) Preference for the usual generic rulesets we use that are more open ended than Necro.
4) General lack of interest in the game.

Someday, I'll probably play it again, but in the mean time I keep meaning to paint up my remaining Van Saar for the games we do play.

The best candidate would be warhammer quest box, that would be something memorable... But some new modular terrain for necro or mordheim would also rock, not only because they would refresh the commuinty for those games and spike interest but also because modular plastic terrain sets its something much apreciated for many styles of difererent games and GW does make some nice terrain in plastic.

I'm watching this thread, and I really need to ask. What's actually stopping you people from playing Epic, Necromunda or BFG if you love them so much?

Nothing, that's the point.

If Specialist Games are to get any new releases or the like, or to produce new players, it is up to those of us who own them and love them to start playing them in our local GW and introducing them to our local gaming groups. GW won't support them if the demand does not exist - it's not as if the designers or employees don't give a damn about them, it's just that most are so old, that new players haven't been introduced to them & with every passing year GW is less likely to spend money & rescources on them, including advertising and the like.

The petition is not just for Warhammer Quest but for all Specialist Games. Yes, skirmish games require lots of scenery in order to play, but there's nothing stopping people using whatever they can to represent it, or from making their own. GW already do a lot of scenery (the Cities of Death sets are perfect for Necromunda and for Epic people can use scale model railway stuff - which is probably cheaper anyway).

The entry costs for games like Mordheim or Necromunda are no more than Warmachine & many Warhammer & 40k players will have the scenery, or if they don't their GW store or gaming club will. The majority of Specialist Games minis are metal & if GW is going to stop all metal production & move to resin then I fear for the future of ALL these games.

If we don't start pulling together as a community and promoting them within-ourselves & not demand the product from GW then some, in time, may well disappear forever

I simply don't want that to be the case.

Update: Petition online has been giving some error messages so if you have been unable to sign please try again later.

It's weird first the Blog gets deleted at a 0.16% chance & now the petition is getting error messages...

...I know your tricks GW...

Smillie wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:

warspawned wrote: A whole bunch of stuff, and want's your love. ( Problem is that GW doesn't love you anymore...)

Basicly? Yes.

!@#$ GW. I don't care if they ever put out another game, I've pulled the plug on thier BS and won't give them another dime until someone there decides to stop the !@#$ing madness.

You protest with your $$$, and let them continue thier downward spiral.

As to the games in question? Those games are still out there. If you want them, go out there and hunt them down and pick yourself up a copy.

You want a reprint?... After what they did to Necromunda? No thanks.


!@$^ them and thier so called "Idea" of what they think we should have, by stomping it down our throats. They've demonstrated time and again that they are incompitent, don't give a gak, and thier continued disrespect for the fans is there to be seen.

Then to top that off, you are sitting there like an abuse victim, asking for another beating. No thanks, I'm off the ride. Too many games out there to stick with a sinking ship of thier own making.

I have enough of thier stuff to hold me over, either until I get through painting it, or just arbitrarily selling it all and getting into the countless other game systems out there that are 10X the product that GW had, and deserve my attention, support, and $$$.

At the end of the day, my petition will do better then sitting there begging like oliver for more price increases, inferior product, and the chance to spend more for less.


They cut thier own throats, let them die off and keep the game that gave you the fond memories. Being out of production means they can't mess with it, anymore.




!@#$ You, GW.

Wow, bad day at the office? putting aside the negativity (don't get me wrong I agree GW are mental and really are there to hit us all in the face) that made me laugh so much I cried. Thanks dude for making me smile, if nothing else this petition idea has produced the above which really did make my day.

Still laughing now? Glass doesn't matter if it's half full or half empty if it's full of p!@#.

Still laughing now? Glass doesn't matter if it's half full or half empty if it's full of p!@#.

Spherical objects.

warspawned wrote:If Specialist Games are to get any new releases or the like, or to produce new players, it is up to those of us who own them and love them to start playing them in our local GW and introducing them to our local gaming groups. GW won't support them if the demand does not exist

GW tell people not to play them in their stores, only 40K, fantasy and LOTR.

I remember having loads of fun playing HeroQuest with my brother back in the early '90s. Would be nice to still have a copy of it... his copy of of it would be awesome since he died almost seven years ago.

I'm sure my nephew would have as much fun as we did back then with it.

GW tell people not to play them in their stores, only 40K, fantasy and LOTR.

If that's the case then that's all the more reason people SHOULD start playing them anyway and refuse to leave the premises & speak up about it (it would help if you had a big friend there as well ). You are still playing and using official GW product so I fail to see how they can rationally justify such a policy. I'll have to check that out by phoning a lot of stores

If this is true of all stores (and I'm sure some managers/stores will be fine with it) then that means GW have decided to abandon all such games which is even more of a reason for people to back the campaign for Warhammer Quest.

Mad4Minis wrote:I would say Necromunda was easily GWs best and most popular "specialist" game. The only thing that limited it in GWs eyes was you only needed a limited number of minis to play. Once you sold a person a starter set, a gang box, and a few blisters to flesh out the gang, the customer was likely done. Some had multiple gangs, but not all. Each customer was in for maybe $200. In GWs mind if they cant milk you for several thousand $$ then its not worth it. FFG on the other hand, being a board game company, doesnt think a game that pulls a couple hundred $$ per customer is a bad thing.

The game does seem perfect for them to acquire. Too bad the contract prohibits the possibility.

I want >plastic< minis of all the gangs, not just the muscleheads and the cholos. I'd like to see 4 to 6 gangs in the starter box. Maybe 4, then an expansion or two to round out the rest of the forces, including Arbites. Each force could be manufactured in a specific color. Or not. I like the idea of loot and small terrain accessories filling in space on each sprue.

Terrain-kits would be excellent and could easily result in cross-sales.

Sorry to avoid your original, specific intent warspawned, but I prefer the grim-dark.

Yes I know I'm wish-listing.

Sorry to avoid your original, specific intent warspawned, but I prefer the grim-dark.

Yes I know I'm wish-listing.

That's okay, it's all good. I love grim-dark gangsters too & we're ALL wishing for something

I beseech you all to turn those wishes into DEMAND!

The petition & thread is for ALL Specialist Games, if we can successfully demand for Quest to be given some treatment then I am sure ANYTHING is possible

I may start more, if others don't, but this is taking up a lot of time

People seem to think GW are like the Corporations in Shadowrun, they are not.

The corporations in Shadowrun have a human side.

GW doesn't.
It is ruled by the evil insect-shamans and Elder god worshippers.

The corporations in Shadowrun have a human side.

GW doesn't.
It is ruled by the evil insect-shamans and Elder god worshippers.

C'thulhu F'htagn!

warspawned wrote:

The corporations in Shadowrun have a human side.

GW doesn't.
It is ruled by the evil insect-shamans and Elder god worshippers.

C'thulhu F'htagn!

Whoa, HP Lovecraft would be proud! Seriously thou folks, I can't see the problem with taking an official GW game into one of their stores and playing it with your mates.

I'd hate to think that all the new players (started playing in the last 7-8 yrs or so) would think that the only games GW have ever produced are 40k, WHFB and LotR..... Especially because I think that LotR sucks ass..
And yes, I have played it. That was not a flame for flamings sake .

What happened to the awesomeness that was Epic 40k, GorkaMorka, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Warmaster and all the others?? It saddens me to think that the average 12 year old kid would never even have heard of these slices of sweetness, let alone played them.

I really miss games like the above listed, and I for one will be signing that petition and buying a few shares in GW......

And for all you folks like Grot 6 out there, please! If you are so pissed off by what GW are producing, why oh why, are you still buying, painting, playing and generally participating in the hobby!? Or even posting on threads that are clearly about the company that you have grown to hate so much.

Really, you are like the people that say
" Did you watch that terrible program last night Mildred?"
"yes I did George, all 2 horrible hours of it!"

I mean come on, flip the channel! There are plenty of other games systems out there. Play those instead.....
I am astounded by the general malaise and 'I can't be bothered' attitude of some people.
At least try, if you succeed then awesome, all is right withthe world!
If you fail? Then at least you gave ita damn good go!

Sorry if o came across all English then, but damn it all, TRY!!!

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

warspawned wrote:

The corporations in Shadowrun have a human side.

GW doesn't.
It is ruled by the evil insect-shamans and Elder god worshippers.

C'thulhu F'htagn!

Whoa, HP Lovecraft would be proud! Seriously thou folks, I can't see the problem with taking an official GW game into one of their stores and playing it with your mates.

I'd hate to think that all the new players (started playing in the last 7-8 yrs or so) would think that the only games GW have ever produced are 40k, WHFB and LotR..... Especially because I think that LotR sucks ass..
And yes, I have played it. That was not a flame for flamings sake .

What happened to the awesomeness that was Epic 40k, GorkaMorka, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Warmaster and all the others?? It saddens me to think that the average 12 year old kid would never even have heard of these slices of sweetness, let alone played them.

I really miss games like the above listed, and I for one will be signing that petition and buying a few shares in GW......

And for all you folks like Grot 6 out there, please! If you are so pissed off by what GW are producing, why oh why, are you still buying, painting, playing and generally participating in the hobby!? Or even posting on threads that are clearly about the company that you have grown to hate so much.

Really, you are like the people that say
" Did you watch that terrible program last night Mildred?"
"yes I did George, all 2 horrible hours of it!"

I mean come on, flip the channel! There are plenty of other games systems out there. Play those instead.....
I am astounded by the general malaise and 'I can't be bothered' attitude of some people.
At least try, if you succeed then awesome, all is right withthe world!
If you fail? Then at least you gave ita damn good go!

Sorry if o came across all English then, but damn it all, TRY!!!

I need a puppy to kick after reading that.

As to the why oh why? Don't ask questions you don't want the answer to...

Someone who is directly invested into something and watching it being turned to paste while the one doing the pasting is getting a free pass to the bank? Someone who all the while watched something you have a genuine passion for being pissed all over? All the while seeing something that had been grown from one book to a corperation, that now too big for its head has decided to run it into the ground, screaming?

Yeah, pal. thats me.

Wheres that puppy?

filbert wrote:I agree that more Specialist Games need to be championed. Not sure Warhammer Quest really needs the vocal support though; personally I would like to see Man O War and/or BFG get the 'Space Hulk' treatment. But then again, I always vote for Man O War since its one game I never really had much chance to play.

While I, too, would like to see Necromunda get the royal treatment by GW – it is my fav GW game after all – the ‘Space Hulk treatment’ is not what we want, and it comes back to something I’ve been saying since 3rd Ed Space Hulk was announced.

Space Hulk is designed to be a self-contained game. You buy the box, and you have the game. It’s more a board game than a miniatures wargame. With 3rd Ed they took a few steps beyond what they did for 2nd Ed by including a few extra tiles, including the rules for Librarians/Broodlords, extra weapon types, and a few other items that would have otherwise come out in expansions (back when GW did/cared about expansions). The idea behind it was that if they could re-release Space Hulk and include a lot of extras as part of the basic game then there would be no need for continued support. And that’s fine – I’m not calling for continued Space Hulk support – what’s there works.

Necromunda, or Man’O’War, or Epic, or Mordhiem, Warmaster and so on – none of these are self-contained games. They are not ‘board games’, they are miniature wargames (or skirmish games in the case of Mord/Necro). With most races represented within these games, or where ‘races’ aren’t applicable (like in Mord/Necro) you have various factions or gangs, the game is too large for the ‘Space Hulk treatment’. Are you going to include a High Elf and a Chaos fleet in Man’O’War? What about Dwarf players? Empire? Going to put some nice new plastic Orlocks and Goliaths into a new Necromunda box? Ok... but what about those of us who play Delaques? Or Escher? Or Spyrers? The point I’m making is that these games require support, which goes against what the ‘Space Hulk treatment’ is. Space Hulk exists as a single entity, requires no additional support, and everything for the game is included within the box. You can’t do that with Epic. You can’t do that with Battlefleet Gothic.

You can do it with Warhammer Quest.

I own just about every Quest product they ever released, and you know what? Aside from the miniatures, everything fits in a single box. The game when it was first released was, like Space Hulk, completely self-contained. You got your heroes, you got the monsters you needed to play the game, you got all the various cards and board pieces, you got dice, rules, everything. You didn’t need anything more to play the game. It’d be hard to say the same thing about the Mordheim or Man’O’War boxed games. This is why Warhammer Quest is the perfect candidate for the ‘Space Hulk treatment’.

Think about how it could be done, especially with GW’s plastic technology and what we saw with Space Hulk:

1. Originally Warhammer Quest came with 6 Orcs, 6 Orc Archers, 6 Goblin Archers, 6 Goblins, 2 Minotaurs, 12 Giant Spiders, 12 Giant Rats, 12 Snotlings, 12 Skaven and 12 Giant Bats (and I think that’s it). Warhammer Quest done in the style of the new Space Hulk could do the monsters on a single sprue, and then just give you two sprues (so divide those numbers above in half, and then just include two sprues in the box).
2. If Warhammer Quest was given the ‘Space Hulk treatment’ then it could have some of the expansions included internally, so that the game has a longer life without the need for expansions/support. This means that the amount of heroes from the first game (Barbarian, Elf, Dwarf, Wizard) could be expanded out to 8 (Warrior Priest, Pit Fighter, War Dancer, Dwarf Slayer would be my bet). At the same time you could include some ‘boss’ monsters, perhaps plastic version of some of the metal models (so an Orc Warboss, Shaman, some Big ‘Uns, and so on). All of these could be on a single sprue.
3. The tiles would include all the original tiles (new artwork of course) plus a few from the expansions to allow for specific scenarios from those expansions, all of which would be built into a new rulebook/adventure book.

Do these three things and the game remains self-contained, requires no support, would be a fantastic splash release. I’ve walked away from GW thanks to their idiocy with sales embargos, stupid price increases and the utterly inane need secrecy, but even I’d come back for a visit if they did Quest in this way.

I recently bought a second-hand copy of Warhammer Quest, and am currently trying to fill out the beastiary for it. The beastiary alone might be insentive enough for GW to re-release this game. With the boxed set, you get Orks, Goblins, Skaven, Bats, Rats, Spiders, Heroes and Minotaurs. But the range of creatures you can fight far exceeds the amount you get in the box. Chaos Warriors, Bloodletters, Trolls, Ogres, Giant Scorpians etc are all included in the Rulebook for you to fight - but no models for them.

@H.B.M.C

I agree with you completely.

I know that, if I were to do Quest, I'd want all the rules, all the expansions & white dwarf articles, all the Warriors etc included in the sets rules (if not as models) & then for models to be made available through direct order - if at all. Warhammer Quest is easily the most expandable product at the lowest cost for GW - as, nearly, all the mosters are already in production. With the release of their (heaven forbid) uber-magic apocalypse expansion I have no doubt other models (Manticore - Dragon etc) will also be made available. If they update the Bestiary to include all their Warhammer releases over the years, and even some human monsters, I feel the game would survive for a long time - as it's still a great game & many Warhammer players will have a set of monsters or know someone who does.

I personally don't invest too much in any given month, if anything at the moment. I just think that it's a shame that GW has, as good as, abandoned their 'specialist' product as it remains their best IMO.

By suggesting that such games get the 'Space Hulk' treatment I'm also referring to the spirit in how they did it, true to the original without messing with it much - they basically gave it a face lift and added some bits. While other games may need minor design tweaks I'd like to think the developers would carry out any updates to any of the other systems with the same level of respect & responsibility. I feel GW have let 40k, Warhammer & LOTR use all its rescources & now they are impossible to control with the constant updates in editions (I may be wrong). Their product output is too low & by focusing on these they've made themselves stale, as well as their strategy for the aggressive expansion of stores - if they opened a few less stores a year, they could hire more people to work for them to help increase product output & general in-house creativity.

I understand why many are off at GW yet if no one's ever made them know they're leaving, the board etc will carry on as normal - like any other big business. They think they're pursuing the right policies - in terms of high-quality & well executed product they have been, in other areas perhaps not (I'm not a business man). I am at least going to make them aware that there is a demand for Specialist game updates/support, until I get a response. I'm fed of the 'top secret' BS as well TBH - but what ya' gonna do?

I know Warhammer & 40k are big business and have helped spread their hobby around the world but I'd like just like to see more investment in a greater variety of games.

@Grot6:

There's no need to kick puppies.

Thought I'd put this up here for anyone who's interested:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat410008&categoryId=1100014&aId=5300012

Goddard wrote: Chaos Warriors, Bloodletters, Trolls, Ogres, Giant Scorpians etc are all included in the Rulebook for you to fight - but no models for them.

Sure there are. Tons of them, in fact. The game was meant to use the minis in your collection from your WHFB armies.



Ghidorah

@HBMC, finally! Someone who gets it.... I was starting to wonder if anyone would ever understand and not just use this thread for more mindless GW bashing.

Please let's not forget that without GW and their major pushes into new plastic moulding technology, the boxes like Space Hulk (and hopefully Warhammer Quest) would just not be viable.

And for anyone who complains that GW are making a huge profit, just be aware that whilst they were researching this new tech and training people up on how to use it etc, they were operating under a substantial loss!
This is because they want to give us the best plastic mini's that they possibly can.
I may be sounding off like a fanboy here, that is not my intention, it would just be nice if people stopped the whining. There are plenty of other games out there and plenty of other miniature companies too. If you don't like what GW are releasing or you don't like their prices, move along.
Keep your memories and branch out a little.
I for one will be buying what I feel I need from GW, no more and no less.

And if that were to be a splash release of 'Quest, then I'm in for that to be sure....


In the meantime just quit the bashing, it does no good.

Peace.

HBMC - I have to respectfully disagree. I take the point about wanting to keep the game self contained and I understand that; I just disagree that some of GW's other Specialist Games wouldn't lend themselves to a Space Hulk type release.

Bear in mind that the latest Space Hulk release was an amalgamation of rulesets and expansions to keep the box self-contained. Games like Man O War could be done similarly, with the main rules and expansion rules integrated. The only thing GW would need to do is to provide additional fleets to be sold separately should players wish to add to their fleets. I don't see a real issue with this - if a re-packaged Man O War sold as many copies as Space Hulk did then GW could very well make a decent wedge out of it and justify the initial outlay into producing the line.

I think bottom line for all of this is that GW has some excellent games that have been left to rot for no apparent reason. Its all the more frustrating for us as gamers as we can appreciate that with a little more support and promotion, these games could do just as well as the 'main' lines.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
In the meantime just quit the bashing, it does no good.

Peace.

There's alot more to GW prices than simply them wanting to give us the best plastic figures ever. Do a bit of research and see how their CEO gives divdends that essentially double his income, or how they raise prices to keep making profits and pay dividends when their number of buyers is not growing. And that's just the tip of the iceburg...

Anywho, maybe it does no good, but it sure goes a long way to explaining why none of my group wants to play necro.

I might be able to convince them to shell out 5 bucks a model for box sets and boosters even though you can't even choose your figs when they are used to paying 2/3 of that for figures they actually get to choose. Then when they want to add some special charachters to the mix it's 12-17 bucks per fig for sculpts that are 8-10 years old. Absolutely rediculous!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat490067a&rootCatGameStyle=
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat490068a&rootCatGameStyle=

Sorry, no pity for GW here, and I'm going to bash them now and then for their practices, if only to encourage folks to look outside GW.

Someday I'd still like to get some folks together to play Necro, but it's a good bet it won't be primarily with GW figs.

Edit: looks like my prices were coming from GW CA. Adjusted.

I think the bottom line for all of this is that GW has some excellent games that have been left to rot for no apparent reason. Its all the more frustrating for us as gamers as we can appreciate that with a little more support and promotion, these games could do just as well as the 'main' lines.

Agreed. Kids will buy anything that's 'cool' - I did 'back in the day' & they would too, their enthusiasm would ensure it!

If their parent's could afford it that is

It's been an interesting day on Dakka that's for sure

Sure there are. Tons of them, in fact. The game was meant to use the minis in your collection from your WHFB armies.

I meant models that were included in the box : P

Gorkamorka
Dark Future
Tyranid Attack (aka advanced space crusade i guess? )
Space Hulk
Epic (esp titan legions battles)

These are the things my childhood was built on

Cutting to the important bit:

filbert wrote:... provide additional fleets to be sold separately should players wish to add to their fleets...

And therein lies the flaw.

The whole point of this is to create games that they don't require support (needing support and actually getting support are two different issues). They don't support specialist games - they just don't. The closest they've come to support over the past few years is paying lip service to SG in that waste-of-bandtich "What's On Sale Today" column where they gave one or two paragraphs about each game and a picture... oh, and C&D'ing the pants of every Blood Bowl Fansite and telling the writer of the living rulebook to get fethed. If that's their idea of 'support', then I don't want it and we don't need it.

The reason why Quest makes more sense than all the others is for the reasons I've explained - it requires no support. It is a simple thing (relatively speaking) to put out and as much as you want Man'O'War, the fact remains that that is an expansive game that is beyond the scope of what GW is willing to do. Even Battle of the Five Armies had only a couple of 'out of box' miniatures. It is a fire-and-forget release, just like Space Hulk. Man'O'War isn't. It needs support; support from a company that won't give it any.