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Mentioned already, but Codex: Adepta Sororitas is always vastly underrated by those who associate rarity with weakness.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ork mek gunz. How are people not banging on about how 18pts for a t7 gun with 5 wounds, 2 of which are 3+ and a st8 ap3 bs3 shot? With the ability to buy extra t7 wounds for only 3pts and rerolls to hit for 3pts? That's crazy good!

Let me put that into perspective - a tac marine with a flamer costs 1pt more. A BA assault marine coats the same. A Deathmark is 1pt more. A CSM with flamer is the same. 4 guardsmen are 2 pts more. 3 guardians are 6! Points more.

I don't think mek gunz are underrated. They're usually included in every ork list. Sometimes in multiples. However, they're not broken due to actually being ld5.

I feel like it might be pertinent to make it mandatory for at least one of the listed units to be an overrated one, otherwise this thread will devolve into a bunch of players boasting about how Pro-MLG-Clutch#againstthegrain they are for using units that conventional wisdom say are gak.

Overrated: Catacomb Command Barge

People are jizzing over this but I don't really understand why. I mean... it doesn't really do anything lol. Yeah it's durability is good, but it's damage output is laughably bad for its points. I got into it with another poster in the original "CCB is godmode" thread in the tactics section, and after math'ing it out we realized that it's killing something like 5 MEQ on the charge (that includes shooting/sweep attack) then 2 per turn after that. That's trash for what it costs. Really, it only makes its points back as a fire-magnet. If the enemy doesn't panic and pour dakka into it, it's not incredibly useful.

Overrated: Wraithknight

Has one of the worst damage-to-point ratios in the game- nearly 250 points to kill one MEQ or knock a single HP off an AV12 vehicle a turn on average. Has instant death, but with a less than 17% chance to inflict it per turn. Like the CCB, this thing is a paperweight most of the time that exists to psych out your opponent and trick them into pouring damage into it (to which it's very effective). It is very scary in assault, which it can reach quickly with its 12'' move, but that also puts it in an unsupported position against LasCannons, double-tapping plasma guns, grav-cannons etc. It's also utterly helpless against PF/TH's and especially rending.

Underrated: Seekers

My favorite unit in the game. WS5, I5, 12'' move ~11'' run, 4 rending attacks on the charge, pseudo-fearless and has a 5++, all for 12ppm. 240 points gets you 20 of these babies, for 80 WS5 I5 rending attacks on the charge. Enjoy murdering anything in the game that doesn't have a 2++ and isn't a Land Raider or AV13 walker. Give them a cheap Slaaneshi herald with a locus and now you're either re-rolling failed attacks or auto-passing dangerous terrain tests (and you're not slowed by it anyway) for maximum ass-kickery. With an average move of 23'' a turn, watch your opponent gak his pants when you've got these girls in charge range of everything in his army by the bottom of turn 1.

They're far more killy and have more preferred targets than the iconic Khorne Hounds. They're also less durable, but it's easier for Daemons to scoop up invisibility than almost any other faction, which solves that problem nicely.

 Vaktathi wrote:

oz of the north wrote:


1) Thunderwolves- yes they are a fun gimmick, but in reality in a edition where assault is not favored they are just a giant target and if you play in a meta with lots of str. 10 they are pretty much useless. Also without allies they only can get a 6+ FnP with either a lucky roll or a wolf priest that is better used elsewhere

They're a unit with a 12" move, T5 W2, with 6 S5 rending attacks in almost any first round of combat, for less than the price of 3 basic putz marines, with the ability to kit them out individually to suit any need. They're incredibly tough, incredibly fast, and incredibly killy, for dirt cheap. What's not to like?

Also, how many armies are routinely bringing absurd amounts of S10, especially ranged AP3 or better S10? That's been toned way down, with the removal of the Medusa to FW only, the Broadside got nerfed, Fire Prisms can't link fire to get S10 anymore, Manticore's have seen a substantial drop in utility and a price increase (and aren't AP3 anyway) etc.

Besides, at least in my experience, what I find kills them best is just massed S7 fire like autocannons, strips wounds from them as easily as it does from basic marines, forget S10.

Space marines that bring vinidicators would account for the str 10 shots and ap2. Which means you will need to bring a storm shield which means less attacks. Also manticores still have a great utility, even with a price increase, d3 str.10 large blasts is still immensely good. And then like you said lots of autocannons will hurt them a lot and at best a crap fnp if you fail your armor save. Then if they ever get into combat with a MC, probably other then a riptide they will be crushed.

 SHUPPET wrote:
#3: Tyranid Warriors.

I don't think they're as terrible as people make out... but I do think they're pretty bad still. It's not JUST S8 that's the problem. It's that almost anything can kill them without a lot of trouble, especially AP4. You have to dedicate high S shots to kill monstrous creatures, but there's a whole array of weapons that can kill Warriors, so they don't work for target saturation like, say, taking an additional Carnifex. Then you have the fact they have pretty lackluster damage capacity for their price and survivability. I can see (and often do) take them to fill synapse holes... but the survivability it a problem then, you can't actually rely on them to provide synapse when they're so easy to kill unless you take a lot of them, which isn't a terrible idea but also isn't ideal. Then on top of that you have the possibility of S8 templates which will only do 1 wound on your Carnifex, I know they aren't THAT common, but when you do come up against them and they erase 90+pts of models and punch a hole in your synapse wall with a single shot it is hurty and makes it harder to take the Warriors in a TAC list.

Underrated- Tau sniper drones: the more and more I use this unit, the more I realize they are what I always wanted in tau anti-organic units. Long range, 24" rapid fire, BS5 snipers with stealth is really fantastic, and the ability to get 3 BS5 markerlights is also amazing. JSJ means that if you want to, you can hide them behind cover, jump out and fire, and bring em' back. Couple this with an ethereal hidden within 12" in a durable unit, and suddenly their rapid fire goes from really good to terrifying! I have been running an army with 3 units of these, and an aun'va never die from ranged fire unit (iridium commander joined to aun'va is basically a unit near immune to ranged fire) and they have been performing remarkably well. I also cant express enough how BS5 on an infantry unit without buffs is amazing!

Overrated- Tau missilesides. Broadsides with missile pods. These things are praised the world over as one of the must include best units in the newest tau codex... I find this to be false. They are by no means a must include, they are a decent unit do not get me wrong, but far from being a "auto-win" unit. They have many problems, but Ill address just a few here: The first I'll address is range, which ties into many other problems with this unit. Part of a broadsides survivability was its extreme range. By being so far removed from combat, this severely limited the number of weapons that could engage them without serious effort. Now if you are a loyalist rare breed like me, who still runs railsides, this isn't an issue, but 36" range is a little too close for comfort with a 70 point model with only 2 wounds. Yeah a 2+ save is great, but this isn't THAT difficult to get around, and by being closer to the enemy, you are essentially granting your enemy far more options with how to deal with this unit. This brings me to the next problem, witch is cost. I can understand how much more important missilesides were at the end of 5th/ start of 6th when flyers were new and everywhere and intercepter missilesides were(and could be argued still are) Tau's best AA platform. But since spam air has died down a bit and the initial shock factor of air units is over, this unit becomes a very expensive and far less necessary defensive platform.

Underrated- This brings me back to my first entry with sniper drones... AUN'VA, for a long time considered one of if not the worst character/unit in all of 40k. But I took a long hard look at this character and discovered something amazing. With an attached tankmander, (2+ save, 5 toughness iridium commander), this unit becomes nigh-invulnerable to ranged fire. This is not to say that it is indeed invulnerable, but thanks to the paradox of duality, Aun'va's signature item, the unit is able to absorb such massive punishment that most people I have played against it look at what the unit can do and say "well f#$% that". This allows a perma 12" double buff, LD10 bubble for leadership tests, and perma board-wide rerolls for failed leadership tests, making an army with this combo quite intractable. Couple this with an escort of 3 sniper drone teams, and maybe some fire warriors and the results are hilarious. In all the games I have played with this unit, I have never once had my opponent attain slay the warlord. That says something for a unit that grants extra victory points when slain, on top of the slay the warlord point. The fact that he dishes out 2 buffs a turn is also not something to be underestimated, since he is able to essentially give all units temporary onslaught (with snap shots) Iron hands feel no pain or dark angels stubborn.

My 2 cents

 SHUPPET wrote:
We all know there is a lot of regurgitation of "facts" about bad or good units that a lot of people haven't actually put much thought behind before stating it as an undeniable truth. So, name your 3 most underrated or overrated units, that you think the popular opinion of the mass might be off the mark with, with an explanation.

It doesn't really work like that, in fact it's quite the opposite.
Limited experience (in opposing armies, not as a player) might cause people to overvalue "bad" units.

With 100+ pages I doubt anyone could say people haven't put much thought behind it.

1) Riptide - overrated. Sure, it can have a good gun, but to use it well you have to roll gets hot, nova charge removes a wound 1/3 of the time and they get tar pitted easily.

2) Broadsides - overrated. They are extremely immobile and easily insta killed by S8 weaponry (think kustom mega kannons, my last game against Orks they completely wiped out my unit turn 1). Also, due to how common plasma spam is, they die quickly.

3) Centurions - underrated. Why don't people complain about these guys? They rape everything (except for hordes)! People always complain about Broadsides but these guys are just as good, if not better, against most armies - marines etc.

1) Blood Claws - having them around really takes pressure off my alpha strike, and they, with a Wolf Priest with Wulfenstone, Wolf Guard Leader with a TH and a PF on a Blood Claw they can take on almost anything. And they only cost 1pt more than a standard marine? Bargain. You mitigate low WS with sheer amount of dice rolled. 36 S5 WS3 attacks, 3 S8 WS3 attacks, 3 S8 WS4 attacks and 4 S7 WS5 attacks.

2) Whirlwinds - it munches through light infantry, and there is almost always space for it in a list.

3) Flamers - don't get me wrong, I like them. When you get them off they're deadly, but I find I only get them off about half of the time, and a 50% success rate isn't great. The guy needs to be near the front and that's the part that takes the fire.

Jasp... don't you find that if you use the TLHGC on something it's worth using it on, there's not much of it left to shoot?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Jasp... don't you find that if you use the TLHGC on something it's worth using it on, there's not much of it left to shoot?

IME it still has good utility against troops. For example, the HGC will only plicnk off one member of a tac squad, but if a blob of 20 Warriors is sitting within 12" of a tac squad, and they're rf weapons are TL they're in deep, deep trouble.

I am going to second Stormtrooper's (Scion's or whatever they are called now). I have most often found that full squad with plasma in chimera, or deepstrike is better for my style of play. Get in close and cut those 3+ sv guys down with weight of fire. Any time I have used minimum squads (i.e. suicide squads) they never last long enough to be effective.

I usually prefer the mech variety. I try to pair them with a Vet squad with plasma and chimera. Working together there isn't much they can't handle in most circumstances.

Hordes of Sentinals LOL. I have played a few lists where I field all full slots, that's nine in total.. 6 Scout and 3 Armoured. It's a lot of light armour and hull points for very few points. Not to mention scout moves, the option to outflank, and a fair bit of board control as they can have 4" between them in a squad.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Jasp... don't you find that if you use the TLHGC on something it's worth using it on, there's not much of it left to shoot?

IME it still has good utility against troops. For example, the HGC will only plicnk off one member of a tac squad, but if a blob of 20 Warriors is sitting within 12" of a tac squad, and they're rf weapons are TL they're in deep, deep trouble.

Agreed. I tend to run mine with a Heat Ray (partly for versatility, partly for Wall of Death, partly because of War of the Worlds ) but when combined with significantly-sozed Warrior or Immortal Squads it can ruin almost anything through weight of fire or by spamming Gauss on vehicles (if the 2-shot MM doesn't do it). I also like using a Veiltek with 10 Immortals to bounce in and drop some seriously nasty Rate of Fire on just about anything. The two pair very well.

SpookyRuben wrote:
I am going to second Stormtrooper's (Scion's or whatever they are called now). I have most often found that full squad with plasma in chimera, or deepstrike is better for my style of play. Get in close and cut those 3+ sv guys down with weight of fire. Any time I have used minimum squads (i.e. suicide squads) they never last long enough to be effective.

Out of interest, do you run your Scions with their standard hot-shot lasguns, or do you upgrade them to the Salvo versions?

1. Mutilators - They are good. They provide a level of danger and durability for their price that is hard to find in CSM. I expect no one else on the internet to agree with this.
2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"), while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle. For this, they are branded as overpowered, which is an incorrect conclusion. They are ok, that's it.
3. Tyranid Warriors - They are actually ok. They're durability issue only exists on the internet. Sure, S8 will instant death them, but how likely is it that S8 attack is being directed at one to three of these 3 man units instead of at the more numerous and more dangerous monstrous creatures in the same army? Low. Put rending claws on them and they can now kill anything that isn't AV14 on it's close combat surface while still providing 12" Fearless for an almost throwaway cost. They aren't awesome, but they are pretty far from awful.

For me it'd be

1) Chaos Daemon Chariots- Underrated, Tzeentch , Khorne, Slaanesh, especially now that Khorne has been upgraded, but before I always would go for a summoned Slaanesh Chariot.

2) Belakor - Overrated, with has much gak that has ignore cover you'd think people would realize he's not as great as people think, he's crazy expensive.

Kangodo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
We all know there is a lot of regurgitation of "facts" about bad or good units that a lot of people haven't actually put much thought behind before stating it as an undeniable truth. So, name your 3 most underrated or overrated units, that you think the popular opinion of the mass might be off the mark with, with an explanation.

It doesn't really work like that, in fact it's quite the opposite.
Limited experience (in opposing armies, not as a player) might cause people to overvalue "bad" units.

With 100+ pages I doubt anyone could say people haven't put much thought behind it.

I second this logic. Focusing on your own experiences can lead to confirmation bias. My own experiences would yield the opposite of OP's assertion, that lascannon havocs are meritless and Obliterators are wonderful. Limited opponent pools and their personal quirks of listbuilding can make units substantially stronger or weaker due to the absence of certain factors. It's like rabbits. Minor pest in North America where everything eats them. Huge problem in Australia where nothing eats them. Most internet assertions are based on the idea that every concievable opponent type is lurking out there. 40k is also not a sufficiently competitive environment, so you don't see units put to the acid test as often. In a truly competitive environment like MtG, hidden gems are usually unearthed pretty rapidly. While certain cards are misevaluated around release, it usually doesn't take long for correct evalutions to emerge. 40k plays slower, collections are subject to far more inertia due to time as well as monetary costs, and as a result many people are going to cling to bad units for a longer time.

SGTPozy wrote:


3) Centurions - underrated. Why don't people complain about these guys? They rape everything (except for hordes)! People always complain about Broadsides but these guys are just as good, if not better, against most armies - marines etc.

Centstars with invincible tanking characters and access to Gate of Infinity have been a bitchfest target for some time now. Go anywhere and grav anything to death at will. And now you can pop them out of Space Wolf pods with Tigurius. Incidentally, this is an example of someone's experiences really not telling the whole story. He's never run into complaints about them. Such complaints are legion.

 koooaei wrote:
1. Wytches - Underrated. Everyone thinks they're bad without having actually tried them out. And those who take a risk suddenly realize that PfP makes them quite worthy mellee fighters.
2. Stormboyz - Underrated. Haven't seen anyone but me using the guyz. 24-27 average charge range on the WAAAAGH! is not something to sniff at.
3. CSM troops - Underrated. 20 i5 guyz with 3+ and fnp + infiltrate with Huron and probably stuff like shrowded from a lucky gift or Cypher are wrecking face unless they meet 2+ rerollable. And luckily, there's not much 2+ rerollable left. And they're worthwhile in a landraider with a choppy indep.

Exalted for knowing the differance between "on paper" and "On the playing field"

For Tzeentch Daemons:

1. Flamers
When they were grossly undercosted 'delete anything instantly' buttons, everyone loved them. Now that they're essentially just basic template weapons, people decry them as the worst unit in the history of 40k...
The point is, they're still an entire unit of template weapons! With a max squad of 9, you still retain the ability to delete most non-T5 and/or multi-wound targets simply through sheer volume of wounds. And their Warpflame isn't really a problem provided you have two brain cells to rub together and keep targeting a single unit until it's either dead or crippled.
Plus they're still Jump Infantry unit type, giving them a decent threat range and/or the ability to keep hugging cover until you're ready to pounce on your chosen target.

2. Exalted Flamers
Love these guys, and they're filthy cheap to boot. They're best trick is to throw them into a large unit of Pinkies carrying a Blasted Standard... The first unit to attempt an assault against that unit will eat an automatic D3 S5/ap3 + 2D6 S4 hits, likely causing at least a few casualties.

3. Mutating Warblade
The default Greater Reward weapon for Tzeentch daemons. If you're ever going to run a Tzherald in a unit of Screamers, or else a Tzeentch DP, these weapons are ace! Any character or MC killed by it gets turned into a Chaos Spawn on a 2+. Nothing wrong with gaining a freebie reinforcement!
Tzheralds can counter their low S3 by taking Divination powers which can either help boost their survivability and/or gain re-rolls through powers like Prescience or Precognition. With ap3, all those single wound MEQ characters need to be rather careful about automatically declaring/accepting a challenge from these guys, as a single successful to-wound roll is all it takes.
DP's can simply have a field day crushing characters & other MC's, as these guys typically don't want to be wielding the Boombstick which has a nasty habit of nailing them with its explosive effects.

In respone to Vipoid's questions. I run them with just hotshot lasguns.

Sgt. no upgrades
2 plasma guns
7hotshot lasguns

SHUPPET wrote:Honorable mention goes to Plague Marines, who for the most part are worse and far less effecient than taking MoN CSM as your troops. The fact that these combined with Oblits were so popular for CSM players helps me understand why a lot of them had so little luck with their dex

Yes, and to which I'd also add:

1.) Helldrakes. The number one mindless, ravening fear unit until the invention of the riptide. These single-handedly destroyed every army and were invincible and ruined 40k completely.

But they were awful, or, at least, irrelevant. Helldrakes did nothing to stop any of the drawbacks from being a flier on the one hand, and on the other, the only thing they came with was an anti-infantry weapon, and at huge cost. The entire CSM codex is pretty much devoted to killing space marines, and weaker infantry, for that matter. The helldrake offered nothing that the rest of the codex wasn't already swarming with. They weren't even the best choice in their FO slot, being beaten by lord+bike combos, and, to a lesser extent, melticide raptors.

The easiest way to demonstrate how ludicrous the fear was is to compare them to 1ksons. Both were more durable than usual, both had Ap3, and both were really expensive. Yet for some reason 1ksons were the worst unit in the codex, and the helldrake was the best unit in the game.

The only thing more absurd than the crazy overvaluing during its heyday was the absolutely absurd counterreaction when it lost the extra-magic feature of its torrent weapon. It went from game breaking to literally having its balls cut off and being completely worthless and the CSM codex was junk. With a tiny change that just brought the helldrake in line with the rest of vehicle shooting rules.

I'd definitely agree that the main reason people think the CSM codex is bad is because they don't understand the things they're talking about before they talk about them.

2.) Wyverns.

For much the same reasons as the helldrake, really. People saw a torrent flamer and went goggley, and the same happened when people saw a tank with four blast templates per shot, and rerolls wounds! And ignores cover! Everything will die instantly.

And then they ignored its S and Ap. And its AV12/10 open-topped frame.

And they also forgot that, like the helldrake, it was only duplicating what the codex already had way too much of. The wyvern is really only good against light infantry, and you've already got dozens of free vehicle heavy bolters or hundreds of FRF lasguns to handle that.

Yes, wyverns do clear out mysteriously-tightly-packed light infantry with good efficiency, but that doesn't really matter when it can't really even hurt those things that are actually ripping your army to tiny pieces. Especially when you have to waste points at all, and precious HS slots to achieve what you should already be able to handle.

But no, a lot of people suddenly needed to change their pants when they saw the magic words "ignores cover", and then got really pissy when their overexhuberance was challenged by the cold reality of math.

3.) Terminators. This one goes the other way.

Lots and lots of people really hate on tactical terminators. Yeah, they're expensive. They also have a 2+, a 5++, a storm bolter, a S8 power fist, an assault cannon, and deepstrike. Of course they're going to be expensive.

The problem that people have with tactical terminators is the same problem that they have with much of the CSM codex - they have a bunch of mandatory upgrades that drives up their price, and when the player can't figure out how to actually use those upgrades, they assume that the unit is overpriced.

Elite choices in 40k exist to bring versatility and flexibility, especially in diversity of killing power an in the movement phase. They have to pay a premium for this. Players who can't figure out how to use that flexibility and just shove them straight forward and expect them to kill stuff do, in fact, pay too much for them.

But treating them like an HS choice, where they only exist for the turn 1-3 damage they put out, or like an FA choice, where the point is to suicide on some high-value target means that you're using them wrong, and so naturally won't get the most out of them. Used as an elites choice - picking on weak points for strategic gain and then forcing your opponent to split his attention while the rest of your army mops up - terminators can be pretty great.

But in the world of dakkadakka, hard = bad. Thus terminators are bad. Thus they need to be cheaper until their price matches how they're used, or they need a bunch of extra free upgrades to make them fill the wrong role more easily.

In my opinion, berzerkers are (when not massed up) really REALLY good (with a land raider)
I was playing against ultramarines, and with 10 berzerkers i killed his 10 hammernators who failed their charge(well more precisely first round 8 died, and the other 2 died in his assault phase, so my zerkers charged another target (not sure which, think it was tactical squad) and killed them. The only thing that stops me from running them is the need for a land raider

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

But in the world of dakkadakka, hard = bad. Thus terminators are bad. Thus they need to be cheaper until their price matches how they're used, or they need a bunch of extra free upgrades to make them fill the wrong role more easily.

Yup

 DarknessEternal wrote:
1. Mutilators - They are good. They provide a level of danger and durability for their price that is hard to find in CSM. I expect no one else on the internet to agree with this.
2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"), while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle. For this, they are branded as overpowered, which is an incorrect conclusion. They are ok, that's it.
3. Tyranid Warriors - They are actually ok. They're durability issue only exists on the internet. Sure, S8 will instant death them, but how likely is it that S8 attack is being directed at one to three of these 3 man units instead of at the more numerous and more dangerous monstrous creatures in the same army? Low. Put rending claws on them and they can now kill anything that isn't AV14 on it's close combat surface while still providing 12" Fearless for an almost throwaway cost. They aren't awesome, but they are pretty far from awful.

The point about WS is simply incorrect. Their damage output is far disproportionate for their cost.

 Ailaros wrote:


The easiest way to demonstrate how ludicrous the fear was is to compare them to 1ksons. Both were more durable than usual, both had Ap3, and both were really expensive. Yet for some reason 1ksons were the worst unit in the codex, and the helldrake was the best unit in the game.

The Helldrake ignores cover (Tsons do not), wounds on 2's against the vast majority of MEQ's (while Tson's wound on 4's), is way harder to kill as its AV12 and only hit on 6's(1ksons are *only* hardier than normal marines when they're in the open facing AP3/2/1 attacks, otherwise, if in cover or not facing AP3 or better fire, aren't any harder to kill), the Helldrake got to its targets faster and easier with less concerns about LoS and range, it can't be assaulted or tarpiited, it also got to hurt things just by flying over them, the Heldrake could engage a much wider array of targets with greater success (Tsons aren't much good at anything besides shooting infantry in the open at close range) and didn't have to split time sitting on objectives. The only thing they have in common really is AP3, when it comes to killing things, the Heldrake is clearly superior.

With the Heldrake being FAQ'd as it is currently however, it's gone down notably in power, and people complain about it a whole lot less.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"),

Except that they can choose not to fire their serpent shield, which makes them virtually immune to penetrating hits.

And, even without their shield, they have the option of jinking - which gives them at least twice the durability of any tracked AV12 vehicle against most weapons.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle.

Near?

NEAR?

Please list the imperium transports that have more firepower than a Wave Serpent.

 sfshilo wrote:

I think most people sit their oblits backfield and then complain when they die.

I started playing them, after three games of them shooting long range and dying....I tried moving them up the board.

T5, 2 wound, 2+ 5++ with all kinds of weapons are really snazzy to go upfield. Assault cannons wreck face, twin linked short range weapons, etc. You cut yourself short of half their weapons if you keep them in the backfield. And lets not forget they have power fists as well to go along with the craziness.

So basically a really overpriced Termicide squad?

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't been much of a fan of Obliterators with the new codex at all. Not only did they lose their best DS mechanism (no-scatter Icons), but became majorly vulnerable to Leadership as well, on top of having to fire a different weapon every phase. The loss of Fearless and dump to Ld8 means one lascannon hit means they're running on the same Ld as a basic IG squad, and while Nurgle can help with that, it's become basically a mandatory price increase (which certainly doesn't help with fluff either) and the unit still runs fairly easily. Mine have largely been sitting on the shelf the last two years as a result. They're also just really expensive in every conceivable manner.

Their great advantage is that they can bring whatever type of firepower you need and put it where you need it if DS'ing, but they can't bring a huge volume of it, lost their useful DS mechanism, and once they're on, they can't be repositioned, and, more often than not, they end up being one-shot suicide units and they're just too expensive for that.

Meanwhile, if you sit them up in back somewhere to take advantage of range and line of sight and being on the board turn 1, the "can't fire the same weapon two turns in a row" thing becomes very crippling and they end up being fodder for AT guns.

I just haven't been hugely impressed with them, either using them or opposing them.

This is basically what I'm saying. You aren't imagining it, this is what Oblits are. Even when I play against them and they their optimal amount of damage, I'm like meh, low volume of shots, not worth the points. Glad that my opponent brought them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
1. Mutilators - They are good. They provide a level of danger and durability for their price that is hard to find in CSM. I expect no one else on the internet to agree with this.

I guess I get to be everyone else on the internet's representative. Mutilators are slow and purposeful, expensive as gak, and have no guns. Shoot them with AP2 if you need to, but generally you can just run rings around them. They aren't going to be pulling off any charges on you. A CC unit that can't get into CC is not a good a unit.

Original poster-
Keeper of Secrets: Yes, it's less tough and fast than a Bloodthirster, but it's considerably cheaper too, which means more lovely Daemonettes and Seekers (always a good thing). Of the Greater Daemons, the Keeper is the jack of all trades, master of none, and for its price, and given that it's still a GREATER DAEMON, that's not bad. The Keeper wrecks face in combat, almost always strikes first, and only the strongest and toughest characters or MC's are going to live to strike back. Throw in Telepathy psychic powers and it's great at support too. Those Mek gunz that keep coming up in this thread? I wiped the floor with them with one good Psychic Shriek. With LD 5, it'll happen every time. It's nice against strong, expensive units like termies too, where even a few casualties is crippling. And there are the scores of squads I've entirely wiped out in CC. The only problem with the KoS is that it needs to be protected a bit to really bring the pain, which players used to the other GD's aren't going to get. If you just march it into oncoming fire, it's going to die. A well placed deep strike, or a nicely fortified objective and it will wreck your opponent's whole battle plan.

Hellhounds- Seconded. In every game I've run one in, it gets wrecked, but it always causes so much damage first that I wish I had AT LEAST two more. And dang these things hit fast.

Vaktathi wrote:The Helldrake ignores cover (Tsons do not),

is way harder to kill as its AV12 and only hit on 6's

the Helldrake got to its targets faster and easier with less concerns about LoS and range,

it can't be assaulted or tarpiited, it also got to hurt things just by flying over them,

and didn't have to split time sitting on objectives.

And, in reverse order:

helldrakes can't superscore.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results. They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

All that means is that the helldrake has the option to get into suicide range to possibly hurt something with a flyby, and they have ignores cover. Or, to put it another way:

Ailaros wrote: People saw a torrent flamer and went goggley ... a lot of people suddenly needed to change their pants when they saw the magic words "ignores cover", and then got really pissy when their overexhuberance was challenged by the cold reality of math.

People grossly overvalue ignores cover, and they grossly overvalue fliers. Ignore all their drawbacks, and the opportunity cost...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The point about WS is simply incorrect. Their damage output is far disproportionate for their cost.

Yeah, compare the WS's firepower against their points in chimeras or land raider crusaders, and then remember that they also get all the benefits of being skimmers.

Wave serpents have the same problem that falcons had in 4th edition - they have land raider toughness and leman russ firepower and ravager mobility for less than a third of the price of all of those combined.

Their biggest crime, though, of course, is that they make falcons pointless. HS choices as a dedicated transport should only be an option for units you pay a huge sticker price for, like terminators.

fallinq wrote:Mutilators are slow and purposeful, expensive as gak, and have no guns. Shoot them with AP2 if you need to, but generally you can just run rings around them. They aren't going to be pulling off any charges on you.

And what happens when they land on weak units defending backfield objectives?

Then they get the charge or you lose the objective. Or you redirect a boatload of shooting in the wrong direction. You're assuming the same things that people assume when they say terminators are bad: that they'll be used by just plopping them in front of their opponent's entire army and wished good luck.

 Ailaros wrote:

fallinq wrote:Mutilators are slow and purposeful, expensive as gak, and have no guns. Shoot them with AP2 if you need to, but generally you can just run rings around them. They aren't going to be pulling off any charges on you.

And what happens when they land on weak units defending backfield objectives?

Then they get the charge or you lose the objective. Or you redirect a boatload of shooting in the wrong direction. You're assuming the same things that people assume when they say terminators are bad: that they'll be used by just plopping them in front of their opponent's entire army and wished good luck.

Except you still have the problem of Terminators being just as good in CC, much more versatile, and a better value for the points. So why take Mutilators instead of Terminators? Even if they take the objective, the opponent can leave them there and go grab YOUR objectives while they spend the rest of the game doing jack all and costing more than a Leman Russ battle tank, even for a small squad. If they're away from the action, they can do NOTHING, and they'll never reach the fighting in time to make a difference. Also, a small squad is really easy to eliminate with a S8+, AP2 template weapon or a couple S8+ AP2 shots. Instant death baby, no boatload of shooting necessary.