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There seems to be an inverse correlation between my sportsmanship score and my battle performance during a tourny. When I started out, I lost many games and got top sports scores. Now that I am winning most/all my games I seem to get a low sportsmanship score. I don't feel like my demeanor has changed during the game, but perhaps its something I'm not noticing. No one has said anything that they found objectionable, so I don't know what exactly it is.

For all you guys who tend to win locally, how do you keep your sportsmanship score up while laying down a beating?

I can't. It seems to be impossible. If you disagree with the way someone is playing something / it seems like they don't understand the rules / whatever... and you call them out on it, no matter how politely, you get dinged on sports.

Recently I played in a tourney and I happened to know that best sport was going to be the highest value prize. I went out of my way to let my first game be enjoyable as possible... but I was playing against TFG, and eventually his over-moving, miss-calling cover saves and terrible LOS calling was overboard, and I had to put my foot down.

What do you know. I bent over backwards for him, to the point where he ended up winning the game.... and he dinged me on sports for it.

Sportsmanship = Luck.

Don't get a bad matchup, face opponents like minded to you, and have a few laughs? Wham... instant sports scores!

One rules conflict that is ruled in your favor, and effects the game? Buh bye sports score.

Unfortunately there are still tourneys that score for sportsmanship. Many argue that it is a great idea and will keep the worst players in check, but in reality there are people who will knock your score because you tabled them, or you questioned a rule, or called a ref over. I think the possible negatives outweigh the possible positives that sportsmanship scores bring to a tournament.

I agree with many of the points you guys make.

However, I am going to participate in an event where there is a sportsmanship score. Tourny is scored 1/3 battle, 1/3 painting and 1/3 sports. I clearly can't ignore the fact that I have been tanking the sports in events I win.

What I would like to focus on is any advice to keep my sportsmanship up while winning.

Give each of your opponents a bag of skittles before a game.

I'd give you top marks.

Bring Beer

Really, the best thing you can do in a tournament is be firm about rulings (because if you lose a game, it's not worth it), be as friendly and courteous as possible, and hope you only have good, exciting games with quality players.

There will always be "that guy" who dings everyone who beats him on sportsmanship. Unfortunately, it seems like that guy is fairly common, as well.

This is why soft scores at a tournament is a cancer that needs to be destroyed.

As most folk have already said the moment you call someone out on something (and lets be honest less then half the people that play this game actaully seem to know the rules) So no matter how politely you try to do so your are going to get dinged.

I got dinged for swearing during a game (not at my opponent) He was around 30 the same age as me so hows the hell was I to know he was such a little prude.

Jubear wrote:This is why soft scores at a tournament is a cancer that needs to be destroyed.

As most folk have already said the moment you call someone out on something (and lets be honest less then half the people that play this game actaully seem to know the rules) So no matter how politely you try to do so your are going to get dinged.

I got dinged for swearing during a game (not at my opponent) He was around 30 the same age as me so hows the hell was I to know he was such a little prude.

QFT

Unfortunaltely, OP, there isn't much advice to give. What you are suffering from, is the same thing most serious but friendly players suffer from. Suddenly, once they win, it's apparent they weren't so friendly.

Soft score's have their place in tournaments, but should not effect the results. They should hold separate categories, if they are to be included at all.

Sportsmanship scores that are rated 1-3 or something like that are terrible. questions are much better.

A good player will always give a good sportsmanship score, no matter whether he was beaten or not.

People who are sore losers will always rate low because they want to drag you down.

When it asks questions, it is best to fill them out truthfully [if someone flubs a rule, but doesn't do it on purpose, don't tank them for that, of course.]

I rank fairly average in tournaments, but I always get 10/10 for sportsmanship. [because I go out of my way to be accommodating.] That's probably a reason for my losing.

When I play to win, I will do everything to as exact a standard as possible, and I will expect the same of my opponent. I refuse to be forced to allow people to break rules blatantly.

Then again, even when I play to win, I will accept mistakes. Human error is not the same as cheating.

Do your best to be a courteous player. make sure you wear deodorant. [its always nice not to smell your opponent.] and keep a level head no matter what. [don't complain and don't gloat.]

If people still give you a gak grade, then feth 'em. you beat them.

Sportsmanship should never be worth more than 15% in my mind.

I do agree that it seems to be a crap shoot for sportsmanship. Some people are just not happy unless they are tabling you or you let them go along with their shenanigans. You step up to bat a thousand times you are going to get hit by a pitch. If you get hit often it may be where you are playing, or it may be you.

Advice: Ask what you could have done better. If they cannot answer you it is probably them being TFG and there is nothing you could have done. If it is not attitude related but list related let them know that is the wrong spot for that score (comp score). This is assuming that there is a comp score as well. If you think that is a bit confrontational (it is all how you say it) let the person running the tourney know that an explanation of scoring before pairings next time may be needed. Tourneys I have attended had a quick explanation about scoring before the tourney starts to help prevent this. These same tournaments I have attended graded you on sportsmanship, composition, painting, and playing.

Sportsmanship scores, especially those based on Likert scales, are simply ridiculous.

Something involving questions is far more appropriate, and should take the form of a complaint-filing. This will accomplish the goal of keeping out the real jerks, while preserving scores. Something like...

Did your opponent do any of the following during your game? If so, describe the incident in the field below:

1) Intentionally cheat

2) Intentionally slow-play

3) Devote an inappropriate amount of attention to something else (ie: Texting or talking on the phone)

4) Attempt to intimidate, insult, or threaten you

5) Continuously interrupt the flow of the game with incorrect rules disputes



If someone has too many hits for behaving this way, he will be eliminated at the TOs discretion. Players filing false reports of misconduct against other players will also be eliminated at the TO's discretion.

Jubear wrote:This is why soft scores at a tournament is a cancer that needs to be destroyed.

Ridiculous overreaction. Sportsmanship is no 'softer' than battle points. Playing good sportsmen is the reason I go to tournaments, not amassing 'I'm the best at toy soldiers' points.

I am of the opinion that tournaments should just judge sports, painting and battle points separately. Just offer three equal prizes. There's no such thing as winning the whole day - you could win the gaming, or you could win the painting. Compete in whichever bits you feel like. No such thing as 'Tournament Winner'. Much easier.

I got ding On sportsmanship cause I pointed out a change to his army from an FAQ. So it's all objective and sometimes if you beat the pants off a person they get mad.

Tie or lose your first game, that way you cut the curve of the guys going for best general, it also puts you against weaker opponents.

I'm a little curious about the more 'touchy' opponents a lot of the discussion refers to. Is they younger or just playin' GKs?


Dracos, I have a couple of items in a sort of 'check list':

Positives:
1. Do-ya start off your game with a hand shake and a 'good luck' ?
2. Letting him check your measures before picking up the tape.
3. Calling dice. Picking up misses. All that game/dice/model movement stuff.
4. Smiling - no kidding.
4.5 someone else mentioned deodorant. I'll throw in clean breath too.
5. After game kibbitz. If you can take a friendly couple minutes as you pack up to analyze the game, talk about turning points, laugh about the bad dice *you* rolled, etc.
6. Hand shake at the end, but meaningfully. Saying "Good game!" is often BS and rather perfunctory, but I try to actually agree if the game was good or bad. If I got stomped I state, "Naw, it wasn't too good a game as I didn't offer you a decent challenge" or "I'd rather lose a good game than blow out my opponent. Sorry, man."

Sometimes the last one is true. Sometimes not.

Okay, but voicing these kinds of "Ah, that sucks, man." "Wow, yeah. That totally wiped your hardest unit. That's no fun." As long as you can be sincere about it.

Negatives:
1. Outbursts, like reacting to a great dice roll for you. A "Woo HOO!" once prompted an opponent to say, "You could get dinged on sportsmanship for that." He plays in 2 to 3 RTTs a month. I took it to heart and try to play more restrained.
2. Swearing, see above.
3. Lotsa rules quibbles. Though you don't wish to allow someone to walk on you, more than one referee call might look bad. Know your codex, his codex and the RB thoroughly. I now carry a little 3 ring binder with FAQs for all.

Where I play is a single "thumbs up/thumbs down" vote per game that ... I believe, has minor impact on overall. Dakka poster OverwatchCNC can give a better description of it.

ArbitorIan wrote:

Jubear wrote:This is why soft scores at a tournament is a cancer that needs to be destroyed.

Ridiculous overreaction. Sportsmanship is no 'softer' than battle points. Playing good sportsmen is the reason I go to tournaments, not amassing 'I'm the best at toy soldiers' points.

I am of the opinion that tournaments should just judge sports, painting and battle points separately. Just offer three equal prizes. There's no such thing as winning the whole day - you could win the gaming, or you could win the painting. Compete in whichever bits you feel like. No such thing as 'Tournament Winner'. Much easier.

When I enter an event that is supposed to be a test of ones ability to command his army of man dollies I do not want to be handicapped by a system designed to encourage good sportsmanship and usaully encourages the opposite due to vindictive little turds getting upset if they loose.

Paint scores are even worse altho I encourage the rule of it must be painted to attend I do not see why it should have any bearing on a game of skill/luck. I have never seen a painting contest that tested the gaming skillz of the competors or had a scoring component based on sportsmanship.

So how about they just offer one big prize for the best general and the paint hobby snobs can go organise there own fething events.

I hate sports scores at tournaments and think they are a joke so I cheerfully tell any opponent I play that is obese that I am dinging him on sports because he offends me.

Jubear wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:

Jubear wrote:This is why soft scores at a tournament is a cancer that needs to be destroyed.

Ridiculous overreaction. Sportsmanship is no 'softer' than battle points. Playing good sportsmen is the reason I go to tournaments, not amassing 'I'm the best at toy soldiers' points.

I am of the opinion that tournaments should just judge sports, painting and battle points separately. Just offer three equal prizes. There's no such thing as winning the whole day - you could win the gaming, or you could win the painting. Compete in whichever bits you feel like. No such thing as 'Tournament Winner'. Much easier.

When I enter an event that is supposed to be a test of ones ability to command his army of man dollies I do not want to be handicapped by a system designed to encourage good sportsmanship and usaully encourages the opposite due to vindictive little turds getting upset if they loose.

Paint scores are even worse altho I encourage the rule of it must be painted to attend I do not see why it should have any bearing on a game of skill/luck. I have never seen a painting contest that tested the gaming skillz of the competors or had a scoring component based on sportsmanship.

So how about they just offer one big prize for the best general and the paint hobby snobs can go organise there own fething events.

I hate sports scores at tournaments and think they are a joke so I cheerfully tell any opponent I play that is obese that I am dinging him on sports because he offends me.

I don't really think of them as tournaments.

The word that comes to mind is "pageant." I don't mean that in a bad
way, it's just different from a tournament.

Brother Erekose gave some excellent tips. Another I'd add is to ask about your opponent and his army. Comment on his theme and painting. Compliment anything you like, and make encouraging comments if it's still a work in progress. This is a fundamentally social activity; only one person will win the event, but everyone there should be having three (or more for a big event) fun games. If you remember that, you can keep your priorities straight and your attitude good.

These kind of discussions online draw out folks who complain about Sports scoring; and many of those complaints are legitimate. There are certainly flaws and weaknesses in almost every system, and there's usually the possibility of jerks manipulating the system. But the basic concept is a reasonable one, and IME people manipulating the numbers or vindictively marking people down is talked about a lot more than it actually happens. I've played a huge number of tournaments over the last dozen years, most of them with Sports scores, and I've rarely heard of it happening, much less experienced it.

I have an article about a simpler, less-manipulable system, linked in my signature. But the bigger conversation about the virtues of sports scoring is really off topic.

Mannahnin wrote:
These kind of discussions online draw out folks who complain about Sports scoring; and many of those complaints are legitimate. There are certainly flaws and weaknesses in almost every system, and there's usually the possibility of jerks manipulating the system. But the basic concept is a reasonable one, and IME people manipulating the numbers or vindictively marking people down is talked about a lot more than it actually happens. I've played a huge number of tournaments over the last dozen years, most of them with Sports scores, and I've rarely heard of it happening, much less experienced it.

This.

Most people do not chipmunk.
Most events have zero issues with sportsmanship.
Most people who actually 'are worried' about sportsmanship scores then get all picky by finding out who chipmunked them are usually deserving of their low scores.

I think this is more of an issue of small, poorly run RTTs with low numbers of people and 'locals'. You never see this type of behavior with larger tourneys and when someone is a legitimate dick, trust me, everyone knows it including the TO which means they always call out 'so I noticed your game was going well, did you have an issue?'

This is just the monthly 'I hate softscores' thread with a lot of people who can't handle someone somewhere plays someway they don't want to exist. There are a wide array of event types, if it grinds your gears... don't go to those events? Or is it better to call softscores not real games, painters snobs and banish anyone who doesn't play 40k the one true way to the warp.

I think most folk simply do not like how easy it is to manipulate the system I nearly always go to tournys a largish group of mates and it sucks we have to self regualate in order not to have an unfair advantage.

Still think my mates sports scoring system is best after the game he tells his opponent he will get dinged on +6 rolls his dice and sticks to the result.

I got pinned because TFG was taking cover saves when he was 2" out of any sort of cover. He even did the old glance at me to see if i was paying attention, which I was ooooooof course. So I let him get away with it for that turn (turn 2!), so when he tried the 2nd time, I called the ump over to monitor the game for the rest of the turn, and the turn after that

IMO sportsmanship is a winlose situation

no matter how sportsmanlike you are there will always be TFG who screws it up for you as the esteemed previous posters have already mentioned

of course if you dont get TFG then your away laughing. personally I say just go with the flow and whatever feels natural, it makes the game enjoyable for you, and unless your playing to win the sportsmanship award you can mentally flick your opponent the bird and know that you had fun whilst playing.

Jubear wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:

Jubear wrote:This is why soft scores at a tournament is a cancer that needs to be destroyed.

Ridiculous overreaction. Sportsmanship is no 'softer' than battle points. Playing good sportsmen is the reason I go to tournaments, not amassing 'I'm the best at toy soldiers' points.

I am of the opinion that tournaments should just judge sports, painting and battle points separately. Just offer three equal prizes. There's no such thing as winning the whole day - you could win the gaming, or you could win the painting. Compete in whichever bits you feel like. No such thing as 'Tournament Winner'. Much easier.

When I enter an event that is supposed to be a test of ones ability to command his army of man dollies I do not want to be handicapped by a system designed to encourage good sportsmanship and usaully encourages the opposite due to vindictive little turds getting upset if they loose.

Paint scores are even worse altho I encourage the rule of it must be painted to attend I do not see why it should have any bearing on a game of skill/luck. I have never seen a painting contest that tested the gaming skillz of the competors or had a scoring component based on sportsmanship.

So how about they just offer one big prize for the best general and the paint hobby snobs can go organise there own fething events.

I hate sports scores at tournaments and think they are a joke so I cheerfully tell any opponent I play that is obese that I am dinging him on sports because he offends me.

Then go play Checkers. (Or 'Ard Boyz )

Miniature tournaments have always been a complex multi-competition event, much like a Triathlon. You might be great riding a bicycle, but guess what. If you suck at swimming, tough luck.

It's mostly underdeveloped gamers who seem to think that they should play as if it were a video game, that the reward is to win and to hell with sport or paint. IMO miss the point of toy soldiers.

Sportsmanship scores are a vector for douchebaggery and nothing more.

I like the idea of sportsmanship myself and wouldn't ding someone for showing me the right way to play. I've read the rules but reading and then actually using them us different. Sometimes the way I read something and understand it isn't ways acurate. One thing I learned early on in life is if you keep having issues with some things over and over you need to look at the common denominator in the problem. Some people may not realize the way they come across is offensive or aggressive to other people until it's pointed out. There's a guy I know who is a really nice guy but he's kind of upfront when dealing with people. Kinda like kramer on sienfield without all the weirdness. Anyway he didn't realize that he was intimidating to some people and sometimes flat out rude. He started asking why certain people avoided him so just told why and showed him examples. He didn't realize it untell I showed him some examples. He went around for a week and apologized to everybody. He still has his moments put he's loads better

I think sportsmanship should only matter as a penalty. If your a cool guy and you lost, well you lost, better luck next time. You're a cool guy so you won't take it hard.

If your an arse and you tabled everyone and made people miserable the whole time, well buddy there goes first place. You're good, no doubt, but you're an arse, nobody likes an arse.

I find for me to award another player every tick on the sportsman/womans score sheet the following:

If they are having fun overall... they may be loosing(90% nvr happens - im a sh$t player yeah i know) but if they are making jokes about shooting me and me punching their faces with power swords then they get a mark in sports... Its hard to stand there smilling when your 5 best guys just got rolled by rainbow bloodletters...

If they shake my hand at the end and seem to have enjoyed the game overall...

If when they have there shooting and assault turns they do this:
" this squad has such and such which gives me such and such rolls, i hit on blah blah, then now i need blah blah to wound, here is what you need to cs, is or as", "ok this squad is next they shooting at such and such...." They dont have to go overboard with "this dice is for multi melta, this is for twin linked and this is for blah blah"...i play daemons, i dont know about guns and sh$t so saying what it is means nothing to me... Breaking it down into easy to digest terms gets you a point..

Not staring at my boobs gets you 1 point. Not that i show them off but being respectful is worth a point...

Not being a uptight twit gets you however many points left... Disputing things in my codex, rules, layouts, deep strike rules(so many dispute this is BS) etc..


I think you are either a good sports or a good chance at winning, probably not both...

TheExilEdArcHitECt wrote:I find for me to award another player every tick on the sportsman/womans score sheet the following:

If they are having fun overall... they may be loosing(90% nvr happens - im a sh$t player yeah i know) but if they are making jokes about shooting me and me punching their faces with power swords then they get a mark in sports... Its hard to stand there smilling when your 5 best guys just got rolled by rainbow bloodletters...

If they shake my hand at the end and seem to have enjoyed the game overall...

If when they have there shooting and assault turns they do this:
" this squad has such and such which gives me such and such rolls, i hit on blah blah, then now i need blah blah to wound, here is what you need to cs, is or as", "ok this squad is next they shooting at such and such...." They dont have to go overboard with "this dice is for multi melta, this is for twin linked and this is for blah blah"...i play daemons, i dont know about guns and sh$t so saying what it is means nothing to me... Breaking it down into easy to digest terms gets you a point..

Not staring at my boobs gets you 1 point. Not that i show them off but being respectful is worth a point...

Not being a uptight twit gets you however many points left... Disputing things in my codex, rules, layouts, deep strike rules(so many dispute this is BS) etc..


I think you are either a good sports or a good chance at winning, probably not both...

So your saying it's pretty likely that if someone beats you, you give them low marks in sportsmanship...because you lost?