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Alright guys. I won't spoil what lists we'll be using but game will be played tonight, batrep perhaps being posted tonight as well, so pitch your votes!

Will it be the deeply flawed yet noble blood angels, or the dangerous, well-armed Imperial Guard?

Without lists I might as well flip a coin, either army can easily beat the other with a list including (for example) 30 Death Company or 30 Ogryns.

Well, alright, fair enough.

This is the list I typically use, although it may not end up being the one for this game.


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HQ
Librarian (Epistolary, The Sanguine Sword, Unleash Rage) - 150pts
Mephiston - 250pts

ELITES
Furioso Dreadnought (2x Blood Talons with Heavy Flamer and Meltagun, Drop Pod) - 170pts
Furioso Dreadnought (2x Blood Talons with Heavy Flamer and Meltagun, Drop Pod) - 170pts
3x Sanguinary Priests

TROOPS
10x Assault Marines (2x Plasma Guns, Sergeant with Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon, Rhino)
9x Assault Marines (1x Meltagun, Sergeant with Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon, Rhino)
9x Assault Marines (1x Meltagun, Sergeant with Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon, Drop Pod)
7x Death Company (7x Chainsword/7x Bolt Pistol, Drop Pod)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Stormraven Gunship (Hurricane Bolter Sponsons, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters, Twin-Linked Plasma Cannon)


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calypso2ts wrote:Without lists I might as well flip a coin, either army can easily beat the other with a list including (for example) 30 Death Company or 30 Ogryns.

I dunno, that many non-scoring units in a 2000 point game (It's a 2000 point game, forgot to say that) would probably be irresponsible and he could take them out with his artillery pretty brutally, potentially.

errrr, I was counting 30 Ogryn and 30 DC as pretty much an autoloss (for the player taking them naturally)

Okay not a bad list, still hard to tell though!

kk good just a miscommunication. You'll see the batrep soon, it definitely was a new experience but I must say, they are quite the opponent.

So I watched Atlas' game against Lord Graveline, and afterwards he asked me to write the report – he didn't figure he could “do it justice”... or maybe he just didn't know what the Imperial Guard units were haha.

Imperial Guard 2,000pt List
Company Command Squad:
Lt. “Badass” Lannes (Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol)
4x Veterans (Plasma Guns)

Platoon Command Squad (2x Melta Gun)
Infantry Squad (Melta Gun)
Infantry Squad (Melta Gun)
Infantry Squad (Melta Gun)
Heavy Support Squad (3 Missile Launcher Teams)
Heavy Support Squad (3 Lascannon Teams)

Platoon Command Squad (2x Melta Gun)
Infantry Squad (Melta Gun)
Infantry Squad (Melta Gun)
Infantry Squad (Melta Gun)

10x Victorian Storm Troopers (Sergeant with Power Sword)
Vendetta Gunship
2x Leman Russ
Leman Russ Demolisher (Lascannon Hull Mount, Plasma Cannon Sponsons)
3x Basilisk

They rolled for mission and deployment and go Seize Ground (3 objectives) and Pitched Battle. Atlas and Lord Graveline rolled off for the first turn, and Graveline won. He decided to go first, and Atlas failed to seize the initiative. He then rolled for The Red Thirst, and the Sanguinary Priest's unit succumbed to it.



Turn 1
The Imperial Guard moved a few of their units forward to get a better shot at the Blood Angels. Soon the guns were firing. Atlas had deployed most of his army out in the open, so Lord Graveline had a ton of clear shots. Surprisingly, both Heavy Weapon teams and the Basilisks completely whiffed, but everyone else hit their mark. The Vendetta, a unit Graveline had never gotten a chance to use before, nailed the Stormraven, Stunning it off the bat and blowing off its Multi-melta. The Demolisher also blew up the Red Thirst squad's Rhino, and then the other Leman Russes pounded the exposed Marines, killing half the squad.

Ouch. This reminds me of my early battles against the Guard...



Reeling from his first-turn crippling, Atlas moved what units he could forward. His regular Assault Squad charged flat out and popped smoke, while the 2 Furiosos dropped in front of Lt. Lannes and the Demolisher. Mephiston also cast Wings of Sanguinius to attack the Russes. Finally, the surviving Red Thirst Marines trudged ahead and hoped to not get shot up on the trip over.

In the Shooting Phase, the Furiosos killed 2 of Lannes' veterans and destroyed the Demolisher. In the Assault Phase, Mephiston charged the Russes, wrecking 1 and immobilizing the other.



Turn 2
Concerned about the serious gimping his firepower had just suffered, Lord Graveline moved to wreck the nearest threats. He unloaded meltas into the Furiosos, destroying both of them (to add insult to injury, he also blew up one of their Drop Pods). His Missile Launchers also managed to kill 2 of the footslogging Assault Marines while the Basilisks and Vendetta ganged up on the Stormraven again. This time, they blew off its Plasma Cannon and a Bloodstrike Missile, and Stunned it once more.



This turn, Atlas' Death Company arrived, landing right in front of Lt. Lannes. He also disembarked his regular Assault Squad so that they could attack the nearby Infantry Squad while the withered Red Thirst squad continued to trundle forward. Mephiston also made a run for the Lascannon team.

In the Shooting Phase, Atlas' guns fired at Lt. Lannes' Command Squad and one of the Platoon Command Squads. Lannes' veterans were wiped out and Lannes himself took a wound, while 2 of the Platoon veterans were killed. A few infantry were also killed by scattered shooting, and Mephiston insta-killed a Lascannon with his plasma pistol.

In the Assault Phase, the Assault Marines annihilated the Infantry Squad with ease, while Mephiston whiffed horribly, only scoring 1 wound on the lascannons. Luckily (or perhaps unluckily), the survivor failed his morale check and ran off the board.



Turn 3
Lord Graveline moved his forces forward to deal with the few threats remaining in his deployment zone. He decided to be a little risky, firing his Basilisks at the regular Assault Squad. Surprisingly, all 3 bombardments hit on target and blew the entire squad to bits. They also managed to catch the Death Company in the blast, killing about half of them. Lannes, the Platoon Command Squad and an Infantry squad opened fire on the rest of the Death Company, killing all but one of them. The Vendetta fired at the Stormraven again, Immobilizing it this time. Finally, the rest of his forces opened up on Mephiston, putting 2 wounds on him.



Atlas disembarked his Stormraven, intent on killing the Vendetta with his Librarian's squad. Mephiston also went after the Basilisks while the Sanguinary Priest, last survivor of the Red Thirst squad, finally made it to the immobilized Russ. In the Shooting Phase, the Librarian's squad blew down the Vendetta with their meltagun, but failed to kill anyone in the blast. Atlas also made a mistake, firing Mephiston's plasma pistol at the Basilisks – destroying 1. However, Lord Graveline removed the closest one, so Mephiston was no longer able to assault the squadron, which would have potentially destroyed the whole thing. In the Assault Phase, the lone Death Company had to assault the Platoon Command Squad, but both sides whiffed. The Sanguinary Priest did well though, exploding the last Russ in assault.



Turn 4
Lord Graveline started moving to secure his objectives. In the Shooting Phase, his 2 Basilisks missed their mark on the Librarian's squad, but 1 of the Stormtroopers killed a single Marine. The Infantry Squads also managed to put 2 more wounds on Mephiston. In the Assault Phase, the Death Company and Platoon Command Squad whiffed yet again, so the fight continued.



Atlas' last Drop Pod arrived this turn. He tried to land it on the Imperial Guard objective to contest it, but missed. Meanwhile, the Sanguinary Priest moved to contest the objective, but couldn't quite make it so he aimed for one of the Infantry Squads instead. Meanwhile, Mephiston moved to assault the Basilisks again while the Librarian's squad went after the Stormtroopers. In the Assault Phase, the Sanguinary Priest swept the Infantry Squad with ease, as did the Librarian, and Mephiston wrecked one of the Basilisks, Shaking the other (he also suffered Perils of the Warp casting the Sanguine Sword). Finally, the Death Company Marine finally managed to kill 2 of the Command Squad veterans, but the Officer held his ground.



Turn 5
Worried that the Death Company could contest his objective if it wins the combat against his officer, Lord Graveline moves one of his Infantry Squads to aid in the fight while another unit secured the objective. Meanwhile, everyone else went to pelt Mephiston and the Sanguinary Priest. In the Shooting Phase, the Sanguinary Priest took 3 missiles to the back, while Lt. “Badass” Lannes himself pointed his Plasma Pistol at Mephiston and cut down the menace. In the Assault Phase, both sides whiffed yet again (Atlas was getting ridiculously lucky saves – he saved 7 wounds on 1 Marine!!!) so that fight continued yet again...



Atlas' only hope now was to secure his objective and hope for a draw. However, he'd have to contend with the last Basilisk, which could wipe out his unit in 1 shot if it fired... He moved his unit towards the objective and got a 6” run roll, which should be enough to make it...

We rolled to see if there would be another turn and...




Afterthoughts
This was a learning experience for both players – neither side had played against the other army, although Lord Graveline had the leg up for playing 40k much longer. Plus his list has the capability to annihilate a whole squad of Marines in 1 shot, which is nothing to scoff at. Lord Graveline and Atlas took turns placing terrain, but I think Atlas in particular made a big mistake placing very little LOS-blocking terrain, especially in the mid-section of the board. I mentioned to Lord Graveline during the deployment that they had inadvertently set up an enormous kill zone in the center of the board for him. The other big factor was that Atlas and Lord Graveline both deployed almost everything of theirs out in the open (although, again, they didn't have enough stuff to hide behind), so they were able to get pounded easier. Then again, if Atlas had gotten the first turn, then everything would have been very different.

If you enjoyed this, be sure to check out my other battle reports!

Andilus Greatsword wrote: he didn't figure he could “do it justice”... or maybe he just didn't know what the Imperial Guard units were haha.

How nice of you to say this. To be fair, I did.

Nice report. Thanks for the write up.

One question though that is bothering me; how did meph get a first turn charge? 24" between deployments... 12" move, 6" charge... did the Russ tanks move forwards 6"? Otherwise I can't see how he did it?

Also, Commissars needed in the Guard army!

nice game =D

reminded me like my last night's game with my guard vs a similar BA list with mepheston and preds instead of strom raven. My mech guard despite blowing up an entire plasma gun squad with tripple 1's, still pulled out a win in the end just cause of no saves allowed for the big pie plates and crazy amount of melta/plasma/las cannons that can be crammed into a list. really negates the FNP advantage for the angles.

evilbishop wrote:Nice report. Thanks for the write up.

One question though that is bothering me; how did meph get a first turn charge? 24" between deployments... 12" move, 6" charge... did the Russ tanks move forwards 6"? Otherwise I can't see how he did it?

Also, Commissars needed in the Guard army!

Mephiston also has Fleet, but yes, the Russes moved 6" forwards as well, so he was well in range.

Commissars would have been nice I imagine, but I think Lord Graveline held back because he wasn't planning on powerblobbing them.

To the BA player:

Your BA list is pretty unconventional. I'm curious why you've chosen to go the route you have; I'm not criticizing.

In particular, why did you run the Stormraven as you did? I guess I can see why you would not stick a Furioso in it, given that you have two and you don't want one coming in alone via DP, but why not stick the DC in it at least? You have an even number of pods, so you can afford to lose one.

I'm also curious how running Assault Marines in Rhinos has worked for you. It's something that I've never considered, so have you found any particular strengths?

To be honest, sending the epistolary in there probably works for me just as well, although I can understand the advantages of putting DC in there - letting them run out and assault after moving 12 inches. But the epistolary has a very powerful set of advantages that have worked well with the stormraven, as it takes them far across the board and then the librarian just rips heavy hitters to pieces.

Rhinos is an interesting choice, for sure, and I've had to adjust my units (actually, even earlier tonight I was discussing with Andilus about it) due to the carrying capacity of rhinos, but they are faster than other marines' rhinos and if I pop smoke, they get a 4+ cover save and can potentially move out and charge the next turn. It's risky, and as you saw in the game, the risk didn't end up paying off in this particular fight, but in past reports (look at VASSAL bootcamp thread, lots of battles there where I've used the rhinos) it's worked out really well, giving my marines extra protection from attack and higher mobility without spending points on jump packs.


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I fully acknowledge it's rather unconventional, but it's still geared toward taking advantage of the charge, with the added bonus of buffing my epistolary's squad, protection against opponents who try to thwart my charge (which they try to do every time) and some awesome attacking power.

I just browsed your Vassal report thread. I'm going to give it a full reading some time soon, but for now, my main takeaway is that you've never run a Razorspam list. So, now I'm wondering if that's just a personal preference thing, or something else.

I ask because I've only run Razorbacks, never Rhinos, largely because the Razorbacks seem to work better on paper to me. I'm wondering if you're approaching the decision differently from me, since you've tried a bunch of different stuff but never that.

Titan Atlas wrote:Rhinos is an interesting choice, for sure, and I've had to adjust my units (actually, even earlier tonight I was discussing with Andilus about it) due to the carrying capacity of rhinos, but they are faster than other marines' rhinos and if I pop smoke, they get a 4+ cover save and can potentially move out and charge the next turn. It's risky, and as you saw in the game, the risk didn't end up paying off in this particular fight, but in past reports (look at VASSAL bootcamp thread, lots of battles there where I've used the rhinos) it's worked out really well, giving my marines extra protection from attack and higher mobility without spending points on jump packs.

Well you get Jump Packs free on the Assault Marines, but I suppose you mean any Priests or things that join the squad. Rhinos also provide extra protection.

As for Razorspam, I think that Atlas is hesitant about it because he doesn't like the idea of cutting his offense in half.

Yeah, jump packs make the squads not fit in the rhinos unfortunately. :/

I probably would've run autocannons or lascannons in the infantry squads instead of short-range meltas, because you can only use the meltas when the BA's are within assualt range, which means it's usually too late for them to be effective. Best to hit BA's from a distance like Grey Knights and whittle them down so they have nothing left to assault with I think. That's what I do anyway.

Also, did the guard player utilise orders? Didn't see any described in the report.

I still haven't tried basilisks because i'm having so much success with Griffons they seem like a bit of a points sink being so much more expensive and not nearly as accurate (Also higher minimum range). Still seemed like a well balanced list though which i'm not criticising: melta is never a bad idea against MEQ! Good victory for the guard!

Commissar's a must though. I second that.

He did use orders pretty much every turn, but I couldn't remember every instance so I just said the end results.

The Basilisks only hit once all game. I agree, they seem to be very hit-or-miss unit (literally).

To me, the Rhino vs. Razorback thing isn't about having smaller squads, it's whether you want to spend points on shooting weapons or more Marines. 10 Marines with 2 Meltas in a Rhino is 225, while 2 squads of 5 with a Melta each in a HF Razorback is 260. You get an extra Sergeant in the exchange too, so you can get another Power Weapon or Power Fist into the list. So, on a per-Marine basis, it's close to a push, especially since 2 five man squads is a bit better than 1 10 man squad, due to the extra Sarge. Plus Razorbacks give you the ability to stick Priests and Librarians where appopriate without taking an inefficient 9 man squad.

Now, most people don't go with a cheap Razorback turret, so you do end up spending quite a bit more on the Razorbacks than the above scenario implies, but that seems to suggest a preference for the extra shooting power over the extra Marines.

Another thing in favor of experimentation is that no-one in their right mind would ever buy a Rhino kit, when the Razorback kit is like $2 more and allows you to make a Rhino or a Razorback. So, you should have the Razorback bits lying around.

Thing is, though, I'd have to make certain cutbacks, I mean, I'm barely below breaking the 2000 point limit and adding razorbacks as well as power weapons and guns, plus the given points for adding on razorbacks. To be honest, it's not that big a deal if they have better firepower, the transports are primarily to be transports. Also, more squads of 5 means that I'd have to have those squads hugging each other so that they can share the FNP given by a priest, and I don't know if I see the benefit of that if the only major difference is an added power weapon (which admittedly is quite good, but still)


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But to be fair, I will give a razorspam list a try at some point, although I should say that the list I've worked with has done well for me.

How long is the gaming table? I just curious.

6x4

FifteenHours wrote:I probably would've run autocannons or lascannons in the infantry squads instead of short-range meltas, because you can only use the meltas when the BA's are within assualt range, which means it's usually too late for them to be effective. Best to hit BA's from a distance like Grey Knights and whittle them down so they have nothing left to assault with I think. That's what I do anyway.

Also, did the guard player utilise orders? Didn't see any described in the report.

I still haven't tried basilisks because i'm having so much success with Griffons they seem like a bit of a points sink being so much more expensive and not nearly as accurate (Also higher minimum range). Still seemed like a well balanced list though which i'm not criticising: melta is never a bad idea against MEQ! Good victory for the guard!

Yea, I was thinking about running the heavy weapons for the infantry squads, but my issue was the idea of taking the heavy weapons and then having it be an objectives game. Mind you, thinking about it now, it's definitely looking like a viable option, even for an objectives game. Hmmm ... I'll have to experiment with that. Thanks for the tip.

Yea, the orders I used were mostly 'Bring it Down' or First Rank, Second Rank. I found them to be effective against the Dreads and the Marines when they got in my face lol.

I find basilisks pretty effective for the most part, but I'm gonna have to start subbing my Basilisks for Griffons soon for our groups campaign in the summer, just because of the way I've set up that army to play. I think the idea of the Griffon's accuracy is really attractive, but most of the people I play against are MEQ (Necrons, Marines and Chaos), so a Griffon doesn't make the cut when it comes to the AP abilities that the Basilisk gives me. The Basilisk also does solid damage to vehicles which the Griffon also has a harder time doing. That's just me.

And yea, the Meltas were used mostly because I knew that he has a thing for drop podding in his Dreads, so the Meltas would (and did) definitely help deal with that problem!

Lord Graveline wrote:
And yea, the Meltas were used mostly because I knew that he has a thing for drop podding in his Dreads, so the Meltas would (and did) definitely help deal with that problem!

Drop podding in his dreads kinda sounds like a fun new way to say pooping yourself


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Also, grr, I shall avenge Mephiston...

Although Atlas the Epistolary still did well!

Titan Atlas wrote:Although Atlas the Epistolary still did well!

I dunno, he only killed 10 Stormtroopers with his squad...

(Trollface removed because someone got offended. Didn't really properly convey what I wanted to say anyway)

I wish the Stromtroopers lasted a little longer. I didnt realize how crazy blood angels were in close combat.
Next time I`ll make sure to give them some special weapons and keep them a little farther away from your lines. I dunno, I`ll see how it goes next time. Decisions, decisions.

If your stormtroopers are in a situation like that again, I would probably fear for their lives, you're right, you don't want them against my librarian's squad especially.

What I should`ve done was fired their pistols and then charged you -- but at least the way it worked out, they distracted you long enough to have you not be able to make it to capture your objective. I`m kinda glad the way they worked that out, but I wish they could`ve done a bit more damage than just being a distraction. In all honesty, if I wanted to use a squad to just be a distraction, I would`ve used a regular Guard squad or a penal squad. Stormtroopers arent supposed to be used to be sacced.

Yeah, and I'm consoled by the fact that I was only a hair's width away from tying it, so that's good


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But I think this particular build, while powerful, isn't perhaps ideally suited for anti-IG due to low target saturation. Maybe Razorspam or the like is a good idea, but I'll only know if I try. We shall see, maybe getting initiative would be the key differentiating factor in how this game would have played out, but we'll have to see.....soon enough

No wonder you will choose to use Basilisk, in the hobby centre that I go to is using 4x4 basilisks are going to be sitting ducks to be KO by assault marine. I haven't try of using melta on normal guard infantry due to the low to hit rate, I tends to put in with special weapons squad and give Bring It Down order to it to get the twin-link rule.

kklau123456 wrote:I haven't try of using melta on normal guard infantry due to the low to hit rate, I tends to put in with special weapons squad and give Bring It Down order to it to get the twin-link rule.

Nice. Using Special Weapons Squads are a great idea. I definitely should have done that. It did cross my mind, but I realized that with those drop pods, he'd just drop them away from my melta squad, so I couldn't do that. In all honesty, that'd the first time I've given anything other than grenade launchers or flamers to my Guard squads. I guess I just kinda worked out to be lucky that they did such a decent job