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After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432696.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461205.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/430120.page

Plenty of old threads on this. At least none this month though.

Oh god this thread again.

Most people don't really hate the Ultramarines. They're just annoyed at how they're the poster boys, oftentimes being poster-boys to the point of self-parody.

End discussion.

I hate them because of their color-scheme actually.

Blue and gold? Come on son. What is this.

They are smurfs because they are blue and everything they have is blue. And they are made fun of for being the poster boy starter army. But feth everyone most of it is trolls anyways

Several possible reasons:

Most recent codex says (and this is a summary from memory and so can be wrong), that Space Marines are essentially divided into those that follow the Ultramarine model (As Gulliman wrote the Codex Astartes, and is the "spiritual liege" of all the SM), and... basically a bunch of chapters that are doing it wrong and don't amount to much. (This is the primary beef with anybody who has made up their own chapter. This is also a reason why people don't like Mat Ward).

I'm hazy on this point, but another point of contention is that the Ultramarines didn't exactly do a whole lot during the Horus Heresy compared to other legions, yet Gulliman somehow ends up dictating to others how they should run their outfits.

Another reason is they're the poster boys of the Space Marines, and with fame comes haters. (And also Ward likes them, so people who hate Ward, by extension hate Ultramarines).


Also, I don't think calling them smurfs is particularly derogatory, just a nickname for them like

Because of the Fluff ward wrote.

Made it to the sixth post before draigo'ing. Impressive.

I went through a bit on those links, it just seems wierd to hate on them even if they ARE the posterboys I found a good quote that i really liked from a guy named Zweischneid

"They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.

By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff. "

One neckbeard trying to psychoanalyze the other neckbeards is the blind leading the blind.

Not only is it hypocritical, but it's also kind of dumb to assert that the reason why someone doesn't like the faction that you're a fanboy of is because of some latent mental disorders and self-esteem issues. I could easily make the same gakky argument.

"The reason people like the Ultramarines is because 40K attracts nerds and socially awkward individuals. The most awkward and repressed of these individuals gravitate toward the Ultramarines because their lack of self-confidence and perceived "significance" in the real world drives them to compensate by gravitating toward the "strongest", "best" or most "famous" factions in a virtual world, such as the Ultramarines in 40K."

Boom. Maybe, at the end of the day, people dislike fictional faction A and prefer fictional faction B because that is their preference.

And not past the first page before it got nasty. God I love these threads.

Yeah, people's feelings will start getting hurt soon though, and then Manchu will be up in here, revoking my quick-reply privileges again.

For how quickly things "escalate" here, Dakkaites seem to be very sensitive.

I don't think it got nasty, maybe BlaxicanX is right, people are sensitive.It's a forum right? Everyone has their own opinions and their own ways of expressing them. Besides... I still got my Question answered =D

Ultramarines see a bit more hate because of the spotlight GW likes to put on them, and because some of the fluff is so OTT, going out if its way to portray them as the shining, squeaky-clean, goodie two shoes marines. People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, and they really didn't like the idea that every other chapter would venerate Guilliman and his teachings above their own primarchs and their teachings.

Although it may seem that the Smurfs get a disproportionate amount of hate, a good deal of it is all in good fun, and nearly every other chapter/faction with any popularity is mocked for some humorous OTT aspect of their fluff. GK are mary sues that hang out with space orangutans, SW are space puppies, BA are space vampires or twilight wannabes, DA are all repressed gays that afraid to come out of the closet, Eldar are space elves/elfdar, Tau are pathetically naive space communists, Necrons are terminators, Abaddon is Failbaddon and has no arms, half the chaos primarchs are whinny emogoths with daddy issues, etc. You get the picture. Most of it is tongue in cheek though, I know I've joked about all of the above and more, but its not like I really hate any of them. Its a game, don't take it so seriously.

Then again, there are those few people who take it WAY too seriously, and actually hate the smurfs or some other faction with a vitriolic passion, but most of them are trolls and don't get out much. I pity them, rather than get offended by them.

 pretre wrote:
And not past the first page before it got nasty. God I love these threads.

MY point is I don't like the fluff. Also the only kid who regularly plays Ultras is a cheating little so and so. So take my opinion with salt it is biased.

Not liking the fact that the Ultramarines have zero flaws or real human vulnerabilities =\= equal "disliking them because they lack a "dark" flaw".

If it came out tomorrow that Ultramarines were half-horse because Guilliman borked a mustang the night before Fulgrim kicked his ass, and they must hide this unnatural mutation and lust for horses from the Inquisition, people who dislike the Ultramarines aren't going to suddenly be like "yay Ultramarines".

Tall poppy syndrome.

Go back 20 years, replace every instance of "Ultramarines" with "Blood Angels", and today this thread would have the title "Why do people hate the Blood Angels?".

BlaxicanX wrote:
Not liking the fact that the Ultramarines have zero flaws or real human vulnerabilities =\= equal "disliking them because they lack a "dark" flaw".

Reading through all the posts...who ever said that? I think I'm the only one who said anything like it, but thats not what I said at all. I said "they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws," the first two are just examples of flaws that other chapters have and they could have had to make them more interesting. I never said they were the only reasons, and i even said the problem is no flaws. Of course its too late to change it now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tall poppy syndrome.

Go back 20 years, replace every instance of "Ultramarines" with "Blood Angels", and today this thread would have the title "Why do people hate the Blood Angels?".

Man I love the internet... I can do just that (although I went back 10 years).

Not Blood Angels related, but I thought this was priceless:

From 1998 in a thread titled "GW looses(sic) at least 400 customers":

well GW has done it they have lost me and many others, we are boycotting their
moddles and we will use warzone, demonblade, enigma and home forges if we have
too. GW is threatening my freinds, and kicking me of aol, so we in return will
not buy their stuff. so this is what i figure, there is about 90 people i know
personaly around here that play, i would say that about 300 play in my area.
plus probably another 100+ that will be started by these people playing, i
figure gw will loose all these customers, by word of mouth we are all connected
by some person so GW you just lost alot of customers because the boycott will
be successful. hello warzone here i come. i always did like demonblade
SENTINALS better then stupid GW ones. since this is my last post i wish luck to
demonblade in this lawsuit crap. i would ecourage anybody else to participate
in this boycott, thankyou and good night.

BlaxicanX wrote:
then Manchu will be up in here, revoking my quick-reply privileges again

Speak my name and I will appear.

Even I did a thread on this topic way back when:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

From 1997:

> Space Wolves are the worst Space Marine chapter, (besides Blood Angels and
> Ultramarines) Dark Angels are better. Wolves are all pansys who start gak they
> can't handle.

Honestly if people just calmed down and chatted about it instead o arguing, we'd probably realize that most people don't disagree as much as they think they do.


It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

I grew up with the smurfs. It is the best nickname of any army. I just wish my armies had such a good nickname. I personally have no feelings other than like for most of the smurf stuff and think the codex is a reasonably well done one (fluff is a bit weak but the rules are pretty cool).

Alot of the "hate" is the normal internet callousness that anonymity causes in us all. The internet frees of of responsibility for what we say but this tends to cause a "freedom" from normal limits in what we would say both constructive and destructive.

 Manchu wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
then Manchu will be up in here, revoking my quick-reply privileges again

Speak my name and I will appear.

Even I did a thread on this topic way back when:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

lol 'For my 800th post...'

 ragingmunkyz wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Not liking the fact that the Ultramarines have zero flaws or real human vulnerabilities =\= equal "disliking them because they lack a "dark" flaw".

Reading through all the posts...who ever said that? I think I'm the only one who said anything like it, but thats not what I said at all. I said "they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws," the first two are just examples of flaws that other chapters have and they could have had to make them more interesting. I never said they were the only reasons, and i even said the problem is no flaws. Of course its too late to change it now.

You said that "People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, ". My response was basically "even if they had these things, people wouldn't like them".

 Melissia wrote:
It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

Was this a Ric Romero special report?

 Melissia wrote:
It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

Ah the Obvious Research Center. Where would we be without it?

ragingmunkyz wrote:Ultramarines see a bit more hate because of the spotlight GW likes to put on them, and because some of the fluff is so OTT, going out if its way to portray them as the shining, squeaky-clean, goodie two shoes marines. People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, and they really didn't like the idea that every other chapter would venerate Guilliman and his teachings above their own primarchs and their teachings.

The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen. In most cases, those flaws are actually strengths in that they make someone fight better or just appear "more cool". In the same vein, I feel that it overshadows the basic aspects of this inhumanity that any and all Space Marines have, including the Ultras. As if the sacrifice made by these monastic warriors was somehow "one-upped" by making some of them also be werewolves or vampires on top of it.

Lastly, some also do not like the Ultras for being a stabilising influence that actually works with the Imperium and for a greater cause, rather than doing their own thing or even being just a step away from outright rebellion - the latter also regarded as "cool". Then again, this cooperative and knightly aspect is exactly why I like the Ultras, so maybe I am a bit biased myself.

As far as ridiculous stories are concerned, I've read a lot of fluff from certain other Chapters that was way beyond anything the Ultras accomplished, in some parts even threatening the cohesion of the setting.

[edit] lol @ ORC

 pretre wrote:
lol 'For my 800th post...'

And for my next trick, I'll explain why GK need to kill SoB to fight against Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen.

A thousand times yes!

This is what I see as the difference between seeing 40k as a "parallel universe" and seeing it as a sci-fi franchise. If you look at it as a parallel universe, with yourself as somehow "inside of it," you'd have to acknowledge that it would be hard to like the DA for the very reason that all in-universe values would point to their "dark secret" being genuinely undesirable. If you look at 40k as a sci-fi franchise (i.e., like a sane person would), you realize as Lynata has that these flaws are desirable traits. Put it another way, a Mary Sue can be flawed as long as the Mary Sue's "weakness" actually make her or him more powerful and appealing.

Too much fluff armor given by the writers i guess, although my respect for them went up after reading know no fear