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HOLY gak DO WANT

...but yeah. So are you just using Battletech rules with giant mechs instead? And where did you get them anyway?

That game Ronin sounds kinda fun, I would love a game like that. Sadly it probably bombed because you can't make much money when you only require one model to play the game. :\

EDIT: Aww, they quit making them. http://www.timdp.members.sonic.net/battletech/

Wow, that looks exactly like what I'm thinking about, in model terms anyway

As I was driving home today, I was (obviously concentrating on the road) thinking about how I would get models for this project. Realistically, in the short term, if we made a game like this, I can't see anyone here being able to support production of plastic model kits (forget metal at this scale ). SO I was thinking, we should allow for people to create their own Mechs...build them from Gundam Kits, scratch build, even use GW / Forgeworld stuff.

As long as the kit adequately represents the weapons lead out and scale the game dictates, then where the model comes from is irrelevant....and plus it's probably more fun for hobbyists to get their own Mech models and pilots then be told, you have to buy such and such miniature to be able to play the game.

Which of course, lets us concentrate on rules and background fluff for the game.

I'm hearing (not literally, of course) alot of people stating that Battletech will do everything we've been discussing so far.....right, we need to understand if this is 100% true, or if people are really approximating with this statement.....

If it's already out there, then the project is dead from the get go, if not, then we have a valid opening to create something, and I think everyone who has inputed so far, and those who chose to input later on should continue to do so.

Providing this is a valid project these are the first steps I propose:

1. Chose a good working title
2. Collate all the ideas so far, and decide a cut off point for the first generation rules blueprint
3. Get together to work out key base mechanics, like movement, player turns, dice system, etc
4. Review first draft, and arrange some play testing...maybe we can do some online virtual play testing with simple 2D maps and counters, simulating combat engagements and LOS...for example.

What do you guys think?

But first up, we need some serious Battletech geeks to tell us truthfully if this is a worthwhile thing or not! Any takers?

Liking the idea of an online 2D map and counters game.
Not a battletech player, but I have seen that people are complaining that only one model will make the game a bit boring, without all the buildings/destructible scenery etc etc
So why not have a custom-armoured-kill-team-style, around 1-5 models with a set points for each mission.

You dont need a title til the very end really

Yeah, the whole 1 player = 1 Mech is kinda dead. I think people are mor interested in multiple unit games, so I'm happy to go with the flow.

Agree with the point that a title can wait till the end. It just helps for conversation basis, that if we had a title, when you mention it everyone knows what you're talking about.

So an example vehicle creation system
My hammerhead gunship would be:
medium hull, skimmer/grav tank, heavy cannon and a two light gatlers
using the most basic weapons and ideas

MattRendar wrote:way ahead of ya guys ! im going to do battletech use my at 43 una and red block for infantry and battle armor and get some more robotech models and 28mm scifi vechiles . but i don't wanna do more then 4 mechs a side . illl post more pics when i have more progress

Wow, never knew they made Madcats in that scale. Where'd you get it, and do they make a Mk. 2?

Delephont I am fairly Btech geeky, enough so that I can answer any questions you may have, so fire away.

As for the 2d computer sim you mentioned, check out megamek. All the btech rules, all from a 2d overhead PoV.

DevianID wrote:Delephont I am fairly Btech geeky, enough so that I can answer any questions you may have, so fire away.

As for the 2d computer sim you mentioned, check out megamek. All the btech rules, all from a 2d overhead PoV.

Well, first of all, thank you for stepping up to the plate and offering your knowlegde

It's hard to really phrase a specific question, as I have no real knowlegde of Battletech. I don't know if you've followed the thread, but essentially, the idea is to create a game that uses "Mechs" but in 28mm scale, so I'm talking about Mechs that could be as large as a FW Warhound Titan.

We've already established that 1 player = 1 squad of Mechs, but we'd like to see a game that caters for resource management, e.g. You have so much ammo, so much energy cells, etc to spend in the game, when your ammo is gone, you can't shoot!

We've talked about random resource cards dealt at the end of a game turn, for each player to have the chance to gain ammo, power cells, to keep going in the game.

We've talked about special abilities for pilots or crews that give the player advantages etc in game, again these would cost "resource" to be able to purchase.

Aspects like hacking, EMP attackes etc have been requested. And of course we have talked about Mech support units, like "Infantry", spy planes/satalites, weapon emplacements that are logged into by pilots to be used against enemy (each weapon emplacement would have it's own available resources), same as Drones.

The game would be primarily a tabletop wargame, heavily reliant on wyswyg miniatures, and would use a standard gaming table 4x4 or 6x4, and standard 28mm scale terrain or scenary. We also discussed interactive scenary, which can be destroyed or targeted so as to remove it as a possible means of cover for your enemy.

So that's a very broad summary. The question then, I guess, is can all of this be done (more or less) with current Battletech rules? What would be the compromise? and I guess, as a seasoned Battletech "geek" would a game like this appeal to you or make you go meh?

Years ago I ran a Battletech/Mechwarrior campaign that was pretty popular with the guys at our RPG club.

Battletech first edition was used for the rules. Each player had a main character and a backup who was their engineer. We used to play battles with four to twelve mechs per side, so people often operated two or three mechs, or sometimes just one, depending on how many players were there and the scenario I designed. As GM I operated the enemy forces, which often included tanks and gun emplacements.

The Mechwarrior RPG rules were used for experience and upgrades.

What made it work was that firstly, each battle was part of an ongoing campaign, so there was no incentive for players to get themselves and their mechs trashed. This made people play more tactically. Secondly, as GM, I wrote scenarios that offered a challenge without a serious danger of wiping everyone out.

Obviously there wasn't such a PvP aspect in that campaign, however Battletech became popular enough that we also ran plenty of different PvP scenarios outside the role-playing campaign.

I second what other people have said that Classic Battletech offers nearly everything you are looking for. If your quarrel is the models, the easiest thing is to decide on a range of models to use and use the design rules to work them up for the game.

Gundams come in a number of different scales. The Armoured Core models are also pretty tasty and there is a new range fromKotobukiya, called Border Break, which is in 1/35th scale and offers some nice choices.

Check Hobby Link Japan for more Mecha kit info.

If you are set on making your own rules, I would give two pieces of advice.

1. Decide exactly what it is about Battletech that you don't like, and work to remedy that.
2. Get hold of as many existing Mecha battle game rules as you can, to draw ideas from.

Mekton could be worth a look.

Delephont wrote:You have so much ammo, so much energy cells, etc to spend in the game, when your ammo is gone, you can't shoot!

In Btech, a mech tracks ammo for every ballistic or missile weapon. Ammo bins on the mech all have their own location, and if hit explode. There is also several advanced ammo types for the weapons, depending on what tech level you are at. For example, late era cannon weapons have semi-smart rounds and ultraheavy armor piercing rounds, that cut down on total ammo but can pack a new kind of punch. Energy weapons deal in 'heat' as the mech's stable fusion engine provides all the energy you would ever need. Heat is managed with heat sinks, and as you generate more heat that the mech can deal with you start to cook the mech. Movement becomes sluggish, weapons less accurate, and eventually ammo will cook off.

Delephont wrote:
We've talked about random resource cards dealt at the end of a game turn, for each player to have the chance to gain ammo, power cells, to keep going in the game.

Because btech is scaled for real time, replacing ammo or flushing heat sinks is an after action experience. Each turn in btech is 10 seconds, which at the small scale you want to operate kinda needs to stay that way. Other permutations of battletech use a longer timescale and involve stat boosting orders and events like you describe, but also require lots more forces.

Pilots come with lots of abilities, from raw score numbers in piloting and gunnery to lots of small perks. The RPG has lots more of these, of course. Mechs also can gain lots of perks, both good or bad, that fall outside of the normal construction rules. And then units get perks that represent drilling in certian tactics or the attitude of the unit.

Hacking and the like is more an RPG element, but in general the double blind rules are what makes the most use of satalites and drones. Scouting and the like is a very long process involving a lot of ground, however on the tabletop its assumed there is an enemy to fight. Considering the scale you want to use, and the small table by comparrison, scouting by necessity wont play much of a factor.

MattRendar wrote:

I see your Warhammer and Madcat, and offer up my Atlas and Madcat:






I should also have one of these in about 2-3 weeks. Its right between the Madcat & Atlas in size.




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Delephont wrote: SO I was thinking, we should allow for people to create their own Mechs...build them from Gundam Kits, scratch build, even use GW / Forgeworld stuff.

IMO this would be absolutely critical. With all the models for this theme available from many, many sources you would be crazy not to do it.

Take my collection for example: Not only do I have the 2 28mm scale Battletech mechs, and the Dreamforge Games Leviathan Crusader, but Ive got a bunch of AT-43 Red Blok stuff...8 Kolossus suits, 2 Odin walkers, and a Dotch Yaga. Ive also got a bunch of UNA suits, but being only about the size of GW Terminators I think they are smaller than the game intends.





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Sidstyler wrote:

.. And where did you get them anyway?
EDIT: Aww, they quit making them. http://www.timdp.members.sonic.net/battletech/

Yup, the license expired at the end of 2007. I guess they couldnt work out a new one. The price went through the roof too. I got both of mine in early 2008...paid around $275 for the Madcat, and $350 for the Atlas.

Guys, I had a look through the Battletech website yesterday night based on the statements made by those in the know.....and I'm so frustrated.

Navigating through all the products etc....is an absolute nightmare....I'm gonna just come out and say it, it's crap! As a company looking to sell a product range, these guys really need to sort their lives out....to say the whole thing is a mess is an understatement.

Ok, it's probably not a porblem for those in the know, but to new players looking to join, it's almost mission impossible. The only starter kit (clearly identified as such) is the 25th Anniversary, which has sold out!!!!

While I really don't want to create rules where rules already exist, I can see no way for "new" players to get into a 28mm Mech game in a simple clear and concise way.

@ Mad4minis

Regarding Mech models....maybe if the game ever takes off, we (the team ) can consider designs for game specific Mechs....because, when we start to consider fluff, trying to explain all the different styles of Mech model that can be purchased will be a nightmare! However, in the short term, and expecially for playtesting, using current models will be practical and fun.

In fact, I'm looking forward to having a reason to purchase some of these models....an excuse for model shopping can't be bad

Hi Delphont.
If you go to Catalist Game Labs home page.
Click on downloads.
Then look for 'introductory boxed set'.

You can down load the starter rules , and other associated introduction material for free!

This may give you a good underatanding of how the basic game rules work.

If you only issue is with the scale of the models , thats fair enough.

But to be fair I found the rules to be well defined and intuitive.
(Thats the RPG and the table top battle game rules. )

Here's a link to start downloading the rules from the starter set (legitimately, legally, from their site etc)

http://www.classicbattletech.com/downloads/QSR_BattleTech_EN.pdf

I'm with you on the rest of their site though, everything that could suck about it, does suck!

Can anyone explain the fluff / backstory behind BTech to me? I don't know anything about it - cheers.


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ie - different factions, the different mechs etc

Check out bell of lost souls. The recently have done a several part series about btechs history which has some digestable info. The short of it is that btech has a history that spans a few hundred years that has tech ups and Downs and changing factions. Any timeframe is good for playing a game it just depends on what feel you want for the politics.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/downloads/BattleTech_Primer.pdf

Delephont wrote:
@ Mad4minis

Regarding Mech models....maybe if the game ever takes off, we (the team ) can consider designs for game specific Mechs....because, when we start to consider fluff, trying to explain all the different styles of Mech model that can be purchased will be a nightmare! However, in the short term, and expecially for playtesting, using current models will be practical and fun.

In fact, I'm looking forward to having a reason to purchase some of these models....an excuse for model shopping can't be bad

I agree completely. Like I said, a construction aka "design your own mech" system should be an integral part of the game. I wasnt requesting designs for the stuff I listed, I was demonstrating the variety of models from many different manufacturers a potential player is likely to already have on hand.

Theres a lot to work out, but since each player is likely to have only 1 mech a detailed construction process can be pretty cool.


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As far as using the Battletech rules...well let me say this first, Battletech was the first minis game I ever played, and I have a soft spot for it.

However, overall its got some flaws. By far the worst is weapon ranges, especially for autocannons. The larger & more powerful the cannon the shorter the range...exactly the opposite of real life.

The theres the armor issue. Theres no penetration...you simply pound away until youve knocked all the armor off the surface of a location, then shoot at the exposed structure. Extremely unrealistic. Most armored vehicles that get destroyed have very little surface damage.

The first issue is easily solved with the weapons having unlimited range, or range measured in feet just in case someone wants to play on something huge like a ball court.

The second issue is more difficult, and has been handled in numerous was by game companies.


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Delephont wrote:Yeah, the whole 1 player = 1 Mech is kinda dead. I think people are mor interested in multiple unit games, so I'm happy to go with the flow.

Agree with the point that a title can wait till the end. It just helps for conversation basis, that if we had a title, when you mention it everyone knows what you're talking about.

I would scale it a bit...say an option of 3 light mechs, 2 medium, or 1 heavy.

This is sounding like a pretty cool idea so far. Just read through the bulk so far and had a few thoughts, some of them probably reiterating things already said.

Infantry as a support unit-slower than mechs, very lightly armored, but maybe stealthy, and able to do things like use single shot anti-mech weapons, spot for indirect-fire weapons from heavier mechs, etc.

Drone control systems as an option for hard-points-take lots of energy, maybe make them heavy, but able to control several small, fast, lightly armed & armored drones. Might overlap a bit with the infantry, or could be used in place of them.

Cards-I like the idea of using a deck of cards for damage effects, but not so much for resource management. The idea of stumbling upon a weapon, random ammo cache, etc on the battlefield every turn or two and being able to immediately use it strikes me as being a bit ludicrous. Stuff like that should be available, but you should be able to purchase them for points, i.e. getting a scheduled or called-in airdrop for ammo or hand-held mech weapons, or have built-in repair capabilities, etc. That could help with a more tactical element too, as air-drops could be inaccurate, and then the enemy might be able to get to a weapon or ammo before you can if it scatters wildly.

Fully destructible terrain is an awesome idea, and could add extra elements if terrain has other effects. Extra movement on roads, better targetting with radar facilities, fuel depots that could damage you when they blow up, etc.

I'd love to see transformable mecha, like in Macross. I know battletech has(had) rules for them, but I don't remember exactly how they worked. Maybe something like have 2-3 different forms, with the same chassis and powerplant but different locomotion, weapons, abilities, etc, and have a mandatory point cost/weight in each form tied up by the transformation equipment. The same idea could be used for heavy mechs that have to clamp to the ground to fire their big guns, etc.

I'm sure I'll vomit more ideas into the thread when they come to me.

I don't think a game about walking giant robot tanks needs any more criticism for lacking realism than that it exists at all.

The autocannon issue is true but only semi-relevant, since you don't have to use the variant autocannons in deign.

The armour fault is true but it makes for a fun game.

Zefig wrote:Cards-I like the idea of using a deck of cards for damage effects, but not so much for resource management. The idea of stumbling upon a weapon, random ammo cache, etc on the battlefield every turn or two and being able to immediately use it strikes me as being a bit ludicrous. Stuff like that should be available, but you should be able to purchase them for points, i.e. getting a scheduled or called-in airdrop for ammo or hand-held mech weapons, or have built-in repair capabilities, etc. That could help with a more tactical element too, as air-drops could be inaccurate, and then the enemy might be able to get to a weapon or ammo before you can if it scatters wildly.

Oh, that's awesome.....yes, you're right. That would be a great improvement of the resource management by cards aspect. Each player has a starting resource cache, in terms of ammo, fuel/power, materials for repair etc.....when it's gone he can use one of his card deck to call in resupply.....once called in, he selects a location on the table, and places a marker....then he roles for scatter, adding any modifiers (positive or negative) to the final result....so the resupply could land in an unreachable area, or even at your enemys feet.

That would be a really nice touch!

So, just going back to the whole, can this or can't this debate, about using Battletech rules. I'm thinking that the camp looks split. In my own mind, I think I'm just gonna give this a go and see where it leads.....I like the idea of a community developed game, especially if it means we get a set of rules that fits more less exactly what we want from this type of game.

Maybe, those who are interested, we could split into teams, some developing rules for terrain, some for Infantry, some for the Mechs, etc etc...what do you guys think?

Ultimately, I don't want to start a business, or sell a game......so these could be free online rules. Maybe they could be an offer for joining Dakka's DCM scheme (yeah, that'd be like selling ) but you get my point.....anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.....I'm off Mecha shopping

I'd be well up for it, as long as I don't have to pay for anything immediately (wedding in the short term).

Initially I think we should get the mega basics in place though, ie - how are we gonna score skill points etc? I mean, do we have something like GW has where everything has a numerical value to tell you how good / bad it is, or battletech style where you're just firing pea shooters at something until its gone? Does that paragraph make sense?

I'm not big on the battletech rules personally. Admittedly I dont really know them well, or how they pan out in a game, but the thought of a bloke with a slingshot blowing up a half mile tall mech doesnt sit well with me

Delphont, you might want to check out Ring of Red for playstation. It was 1v1 mech combat game where each mech had a couple of small infantry squads supporting it that provided a whole range of tactical options.

Frankly, the internet being what it is, free on-line rules are the easiest thing to do.

I am quite happy to put ideas forward to making a new game, as long as someone else is willing to put them all together coherently

Yeah, I'll keep watching this thread and I'll probably start pulling the ideas together into a single review sheet for everyone to see.

If people want to discuss any aspect of this venture then feel free to PM me....the more ideas the merrier.

I still haven't found any big mech models mind you. I'm looking for something around 10" - 12" high, anyone know of anything decent?

Delephont wrote:Yeah, I'll keep watching this thread and I'll probably start pulling the ideas together into a single review sheet for everyone to see.

If people want to discuss any aspect of this venture then feel free to PM me....the more ideas the merrier.

I still haven't found any big mech models mind you. I'm looking for something around 10" - 12" high, anyone know of anything decent?

Only things that big are the FW titans. My Madcat is around 8 1/2 inches, the Altas 10 inches, and the Leviathan Crusader 9 inches. None of them are cheap.

Hmm, I'm thinking something like this might be good

MattRendar wrote:way ahead of ya guys ! im going to do battletech use my at 43 una and red block for infantry and battle armor and get some more robotech models and 28mm scifi vechiles . but i don't wanna do more then 4 mechs a side . illl post more pics when i have more progress

Is that the toy Robotech one? Looks great painted up, I had one when I was young, still do in the attic. I assume they aren't worth anything so can be picked up, it's one of the better of the toy range.

http://www.toyarchive.com/STAForSale/NEW2001+/Robotech/ExcaliburLrgLoose1a.jpg

I think we need to speak to that bloke that's making his own titan(s), see if he can bang together a DIY kit for us on the cheap.

its the exo squad release robotech excailaber painted and weathered up . the madcat is and mechwarrior dark age toy that they released and i repainted it . infantry pig iron . and buggy is from at 43 resin collection .


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http://cgi.ebay.com/Mech-Warrior-Die-Cast-Metal-Mad-Cat-II-Joy-Ride-/280704530267?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415b4b375b heres the same madcat i bought on ebay !

MattRendar wrote:. the madcat is and mechwarrior dark age toy that they released and i repainted it . i

I was wondering what it was. Its extremely similar to the Armorcast Madcat I have, but I could see a couple small differences.