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2015/09/18 14:20:51
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Tannhauser42 wrote: Standard dual laser Warhound is, what, only 750 points? In a shooting match, who would kill who first? The Tau monster with all of its various guns, or the Warhound with 4 D templates?
Mathematically, they are pretty even.
Giving both of them a top-down area of 4" in diameter, firing a 7" d-blast at the warhound amounts to an 11.111 percent chance to miss(3.5" of template center-edge + 2" of model center-edge + 4" of reduced scatter is 10+ on the scatter distance; factor in scatter only 2/3), so about 1 complete miss every 9 turns of shooting on average.
The warhound has a smaller blast template so will miss with a 9+ scatter distance, or 18.5185 percent of the time; or very near 2 misses per single shot in ten turns or near 1 miss every 5 shots(we can safely assume 3 misses in 20 shots)
So we have first turn and the tau player first fires the ions with 1 gun, s9, 2 hit, 1 collapsed void shield. Then the d it hits collapsed void shield; the warhound is now defenseless but undamaged. The warhound fires and hits with 4 turbo lasers, 2d3 wounds(2 saved via invulnerable save) for 3 wounds on average.
Turn 2: tau player strikes again with s9 ion for a hull point, then the d for d3 or a second hull point.
Warhound does another 1 wound from a d3 but also scores a 6 for 5 wounds(6+d6/2) the tau unit has 1w and the warhound regains a void shield.
Third turn is 2 more hull points to the warhound and a dead supremecy suit.
The lower costed model loses but puts up a fight; and that is against a unit designed to fight titans/gcs
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/18 14:26:02
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2015/09/18 14:21:01
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
First version of the rules then. It's not in a book yet, so it will almost definitely change. Especially if enough people complain. FW is usually pretty good about that.
For 1000 points Tyranids get a Hierophant with the exact same Toughness, Wounds and save, but only a 6++ and less weapons to boot, at a lower BS. For 35 points less, a Hierodule has significantly inferior stats.
It's ludicrously undercosted, despite Grav being the perfect counter for it (because, not every army has access to Grav).
Or, perhaps the Heirodule is ludicrously overcosted?
I'd probably agree with you more in this day and age. I was OK with 1000 when IA:4 2nd came out, with generic power creep it's a massive points sink for not much. I personally feel the Harridan is the best GC have at the minute.
As for your question, probably Warhound. 4 Strength D blasts would be tough to handle, even with 5++.
4++ against shooting
Which doesn't help against a roll of a 6 on the D table. Although, it still reduces the wounds it takes from that result...but then loses the shield entirely for a turn.
Hmm, I wonder how well a Knight Lancer would do. I've already been considering one as my standard choice, since there seem to be more and more targets for it these days.
3 plus half a D6 worth of wounds - average of 5 wounds. Of which 3 will be saved. It helps a hell of a lot.
Those wounds cannot be saved.
The Shield halves the number of wounds taken then stops working until the controlling players next turn.
Yes, and those 3+D3 wounds cannot be saved as they still ignore any type of save because they still are a 6 on the destroyer table.
2015/09/18 14:25:16
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Tannhauser42 wrote: Standard dual laser Warhound is, what, only 750 points? In a shooting match, who would kill who first? The Tau monster with all of its various guns, or the Warhound with 4 D templates?
Mathematically, they are pretty even.
Giving both of them a top-down area of 4" in diameter, firing a 7" d-blast at the warhound amounts to an 11.111 percent chance to miss(3.5" of template center-edge + 2" of model center-edge + 4" of reduced scatter is 10+ on the scatter distance; factor in scatter only 2/3), so about 1 complete miss every 9 turns of shooting on average.
The warhound has a smaller blast template so will miss with a 9+ scatter distance, or 18.5185 percent of the time; or very near 2 misses per single shot in ten turns or near 1 miss every 5 shots(we can safely assume 3 misses in 20 shots)
So we have first turn and the tau player first fires the ions with 1 gun, s9, 2 hit, 1 collapsed void shield. Then the d it hits collapsed void shield; the warhound is now defenseless but undamaged. The warhound fires and hits with 4 turbo lasers, 2d3 wounds(2 saved via invulnerable save) for 3 wounds on average.
Turn 2: tau player strikes again with s9 ion for a hull point, then the d for d3 or a second hull point.
Warhound does another 1 wound from a d3 but also scores a 6 for 5 wounds(6+d6/2) the tau unit has 1w and the warhound regains a void shield.
Third turn is 2 more hull points to the warhound and a dead supremecy suit.
The lower costed model loses but puts up a fight.
What happens if the Tau suit gets in close and uses Meltas instead of the Ion?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/09/18 14:26:16
Subject: Re:The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Yes, and those 3+D3 wounds cannot be saved as they still ignore any type of save because they still are a 6 on the destroyer table.
It's not a save. The shield just flat out halves the amount of wounds from that result before going down until the controlling players next turn. Unless you are suggesting that the destroyer table supersedes a special rule which specifically says that it halves the number of wounds from the deathblow result on the destroyer table?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/09/18 14:29:35
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/09/18 14:27:17
Subject: Re:The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Grimmor wrote: Guys, that thing is Grav Bait, its 600 points, and while it puts out a lot of Dakka, it is almost less durable than the Wraithknight, as its not gonna be getting a cover save. Kat Destroyers will wreck this thing.
I think you missed the part where it has 4+ invuln vs shooting and fnp for being a gc, which is pretty much identical to having a 3+ invuln. You're looking at 50+ grav shots to take this thing down. :/
Yes, and those 3+D3 wounds cannot be saved as they still ignore any type of save because they still are a 6 on the destroyer table.
It's not a save. The shield flat out halves the amount of wounds from that result. It is written specifically into the rules.
Yes, it halves a 6+D6 roll. The half of that is 3+D3 (5 in average). But this halved result still is a 6 on the table, it still ignores cover, armor and invulnerable saves (and FNP).
2015/09/18 14:30:00
Subject: Re:The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Yes, and those 3+D3 wounds cannot be saved as they still ignore any type of save because they still are a 6 on the destroyer table.
It's not a save. The shield flat out halves the amount of wounds from that result. It is written specifically into the rules.
Yes, it halves a 6+D6 roll. The half of that is 3+D3 (5 in average). But this halved result still is a 6 on the table, it still ignores cover, armor and invulnerable saves (and FNP).
Oh I see what you mean.
2015/09/18 14:32:07
Subject: Re:The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Yes, and those 3+D3 wounds cannot be saved as they still ignore any type of save because they still are a 6 on the destroyer table.
It's not a save. The shield flat out halves the amount of wounds from that result. It is written specifically into the rules.
Yes, it halves a 6+D6 roll. The half of that is 3+D3 (5 in average). But this halved result still is a 6 on the table, it still ignores cover, armor and invulnerable saves (and FNP).
Ah, I get it now Sorry for the misunderstanding
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/09/18 14:35:11
Subject: Re:The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Grimmor wrote: Guys, that thing is Grav Bait, its 600 points, and while it puts out a lot of Dakka, it is almost less durable than the Wraithknight, as its not gonna be getting a cover save. Kat Destroyers will wreck this thing.
It can claim a cover save just as easily as a Wraithknight.
For 1000 points Tyranids get a Hierophant with the exact same Toughness, Wounds and save, but only a 6++ and less weapons to boot, at a lower BS. For 35 points less, a Hierodule has significantly inferior stats.
It's ludicrously undercosted, despite Grav being the perfect counter for it (because, not every army has access to Grav).
Don't all gargantuans and warmachines have that rules that lets them ignore effects from any weapon without strenght stat?
No, they have special rules specifically for poison and sniper weapons only wounding on 6. Anything else is fair game.
2015/09/18 14:36:13
Subject: Re:The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Grimmor wrote: Guys, that thing is Grav Bait, its 600 points, and while it puts out a lot of Dakka, it is almost less durable than the Wraithknight, as its not gonna be getting a cover save. Kat Destroyers will wreck this thing.
It has a 4+ invul. against shooting attacks and a 5+++ feel no pain. It has a decent chance of surviving 5 Gravcents with rerolls. This is assuming it doesn't have some sort of buff from another source or void shields.
6000+
2500
2000
2000
2015/09/18 14:43:26
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
A deathblow result supercedes feel no pain? It's the same wording as perils, which allows you to feel no pain.
Isnt it "no saves of any kind allowed?"
I was always under the impression that feel no pain was the only thing that could save a 6 on the destroyer table.
7500 pts Chaos Daemons
2015/09/18 14:46:58
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
AncientSkarbrand wrote: A deathblow result supercedes feel no pain? It's the same wording as perils, which allows you to feel no pain. Isnt it "no saves of any kind allowed?" I was always under the impression that feel no pain was the only thing that could save a 6 on the destroyer table.
No, but FNP doesn't works against Destroyer weapons. It is in the FNP wording, just like with ID wounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/18 14:48:39
2015/09/18 15:32:26
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Tannhauser42 wrote: Standard dual laser Warhound is, what, only 750 points? In a shooting match, who would kill who first? The Tau monster with all of its various guns, or the Warhound with 4 D templates?
Mathematically, they are pretty even.
Giving both of them a top-down area of 4" in diameter, firing a 7" d-blast at the warhound amounts to an 11.111 percent chance to miss(3.5" of template center-edge + 2" of model center-edge + 4" of reduced scatter is 10+ on the scatter distance; factor in scatter only 2/3), so about 1 complete miss every 9 turns of shooting on average.
The warhound has a smaller blast template so will miss with a 9+ scatter distance, or 18.5185 percent of the time; or very near 2 misses per single shot in ten turns or near 1 miss every 5 shots(we can safely assume 3 misses in 20 shots)
So we have first turn and the tau player first fires the ions with 1 gun, s9, 2 hit, 1 collapsed void shield. Then the d it hits collapsed void shield; the warhound is now defenseless but undamaged. The warhound fires and hits with 4 turbo lasers, 2d3 wounds(2 saved via invulnerable save) for 3 wounds on average.
Turn 2: tau player strikes again with s9 ion for a hull point, then the d for d3 or a second hull point.
Warhound does another 1 wound from a d3 but also scores a 6 for 5 wounds(6+d6/2) the tau unit has 1w and the warhound regains a void shield.
Third turn is 2 more hull points to the warhound and a dead supremecy suit.
The lower costed model loses but puts up a fight; and that is against a unit designed to fight titans/gcs
Now this is a good preview of its capabilities. For 600p, it should damage a Warhound, but not kill one (unless lucky strikes)
Grimmor wrote: Guys, that thing is Grav Bait, its 600 points, and while it puts out a lot of Dakka, it is almost less durable than the Wraithknight, as its not gonna be getting a cover save. Kat Destroyers will wreck this thing.
I think you missed the part where it has 4+ invuln vs shooting and fnp for being a gc, which is pretty much identical to having a 3+ invuln. You're looking at 50+ grav shots to take this thing down. :/
3 units of 3 grav kataphron destroyers will put out 54 grav shots a turn so hardly impossible. As others have said the fact that it's not a super heavy vehicle I think is actually a pretty large detriment.
Don't all gargantuans and warmachines have that rules that lets them ignore effects from any weapon without strenght stat?
Not at all. Gargantuans do have protection from sniper and poison only, and even then sniper/poison still affects them on a 6. Stuff like haywire, fleshbane, armorbane, grav, etc, etc, still affects GC/SHW as normal.
That being said, this monster has 10 wounds, a 4++, and a 5+ FNP. You'd probably have to drop pod in an equal points value of dev centurions to take it out.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
2015/09/18 16:41:29
Subject: Re:The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Filch wrote: and my 5 Imperial Knight Titans don't have comparable fire power.
:flips table:
:rage quit:
F--- Wh40k, GW and Forge World.
Yup, the Crusader is very unhappy right now. Honestly the Str D Massive Blast was unnecessary, the rest i can live with.
Oof, Idk. a 3-shot apoc barrage str 8 ap3 weapon that ignores cover? That's in a lot of ways WORSE than the D firing mode. I will agree that the arm guns are kind of lackluster (though still good), but that shoulder array is pretty devastating.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
2015/09/18 17:49:09
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Filch wrote: and my 5 Imperial Knight Titans don't have comparable fire power.
:flips table:
:rage quit:
F--- Wh40k, GW and Forge World.
Yup, the Crusader is very unhappy right now. Honestly the Str D Massive Blast was unnecessary, the rest i can live with.
Oof, Idk. a 3-shot apoc barrage str 8 ap3 weapon that ignores cover? That's in a lot of ways WORSE than the D firing mode. I will agree that the arm guns are kind of lackluster (though still good), but that shoulder array is pretty devastating.
Remember that it is a Tau unit. It's almost guaranteed that the Str D blast will also be ignoring cover thanks to markerlights.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/09/18 17:56:03
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Filch wrote: and my 5 Imperial Knight Titans don't have comparable fire power.
:flips table:
:rage quit:
F--- Wh40k, GW and Forge World.
Yup, the Crusader is very unhappy right now. Honestly the Str D Massive Blast was unnecessary, the rest i can live with.
Oof, Idk. a 3-shot apoc barrage str 8 ap3 weapon that ignores cover? That's in a lot of ways WORSE than the D firing mode. I will agree that the arm guns are kind of lackluster (though still good), but that shoulder array is pretty devastating.
Remember that it is a Tau unit. It's almost guaranteed that the Str D blast will also be ignoring cover thanks to markerlights.
This thing absolutely murders Gladius Strike Force Marines, jetbikes, Ravenwing, and Imperial Knights.
Its like the anti-meta gun
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
2015/09/18 18:06:53
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Filch wrote: and my 5 Imperial Knight Titans don't have comparable fire power.
:flips table:
:rage quit:
F--- Wh40k, GW and Forge World.
Yup, the Crusader is very unhappy right now. Honestly the Str D Massive Blast was unnecessary, the rest i can live with.
Oof, Idk. a 3-shot apoc barrage str 8 ap3 weapon that ignores cover? That's in a lot of ways WORSE than the D firing mode. I will agree that the arm guns are kind of lackluster (though still good), but that shoulder array is pretty devastating.
Remember that it is a Tau unit. It's almost guaranteed that the Str D blast will also be ignoring cover thanks to markerlights.
This thing absolutely murders Gladius Strike Force Marines, jetbikes, Ravenwing, and Imperial Knights.
Its like the anti-meta gun
except it also murders anything that isnt meta either
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2015/09/18 18:07:47
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Ah, yet another unit that makes Imperial Guard irrelevant. They just weren't enough in the meta so they had to add more.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2015/09/18 18:07:57
Subject: The monster has come, (Tau knight class battlesuit)
Filch wrote: and my 5 Imperial Knight Titans don't have comparable fire power.
:flips table:
:rage quit:
F--- Wh40k, GW and Forge World.
Yup, the Crusader is very unhappy right now. Honestly the Str D Massive Blast was unnecessary, the rest i can live with.
Oof, Idk. a 3-shot apoc barrage str 8 ap3 weapon that ignores cover? That's in a lot of ways WORSE than the D firing mode. I will agree that the arm guns are kind of lackluster (though still good), but that shoulder array is pretty devastating.
Remember that it is a Tau unit. It's almost guaranteed that the Str D blast will also be ignoring cover thanks to markerlights.
This thing absolutely murders Gladius Strike Force Marines, jetbikes, Ravenwing, and Imperial Knights.
Its like the anti-meta gun
except it also murders anything that isnt meta either
Well of course. Since those things suck compared to the meta
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
4000 pts
4700+ pts
2500 pts Hive Fleet Gungnir
20000+ points
Sorry for the misunderstanding 
6000+
2500
2000
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!! 
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
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