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 techsoldaten wrote:
If anyone wants to call what I did cheating and accuse me of scumbaggery, go ahead.

But first, consider the idea that you probably cheat too. Either deliberately or passively through a lack of knowledge about the rules,

I don't know many people who have not creatively interpreted something, moved a model a little more than 6 inches when it matters, rerolled something they claimed was 'cocked,' organized their assaults to that they can conveniently forget an important leadership check, forgotten that a squad was all firing something with Gets Hot, etc.

It's not like I don't notice when these 'honest' people are doing this crap and pretending like they have short memories or never read that rule. If ragequitting a table is the right and proper response to someone not being squeaky clean is the only solution, like this thread suggests, that suggests to me you guys don't have the right and proper perspective on the game yourselves.

You are a cheater, and I would not play you. If we did play, it would be because I had no other choice (i.e. tournament play) I'd be on you like a hawk, and I wouldn't be cutting you any slack. Try to pull any of that gak, and expect ZERO Sports from me.

There is a very big difference between deliberately, actively screwing your opponent, versus making a mistake. In your case, you are choosing to be a dick to your opponent. You suck as a player.

Those are also cheats, and I'll call you on all of them.

The difference is that an "honest" player makes a real effort to play the game clean. You don't. You are "that fething guy".

 jreilly89 wrote:
There's also a limit. I am in general a pretty straight guy when it comes to rules. Sure, I may forget something by accident, but I have never intentionally scammed my opponent and for you to suggest otherwise is insulting.

Like most cheaters, he thinks everybody else cheats. On purpose. Because he actively chooses to cheat people on purpose. That's how he tries to justify his behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Edited by Manchu. Please seem my comment above.

I actually wanted to read this. Oh, well.

@ - technosoldaten, it don't matter how much one have done for his/her LGS to apologize for being a dick.. Deliberately cheating, just to see how far one can get, and using "education" as an excuse, is a bastard move.. Had it been at our LGS, no one would have trusted the cheater after such a high scale scam move..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is quite a fun saying in my country, which directly translated reads "thief thinks every man steals" which comes to mind since you ask other players to get their friends or LGS players to vouch for them.. If that is how your LGS experiences have made you see the gamer community, I pity you

Guys stop feeding the troll. This is the internet, Just laugh and walk away.

Probably right :-) just hit that certain spot you know :-p on topic, "that guy" is a difficult scenario and always will be, so the best thing I can come up with is read through the advice people give, and make up a decision that you feel all right with

 techsoldaten wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
There's also a limit. I am in general a pretty straight guy when it comes to rules.

You protest a lot for someone who has done nothing wrong and not been accused of anything. Your accusations are insulting.

He is trying comparison, where to draw the line of "intent" vs "accident".
I doubt you are all that insulted yet...

 jreilly89 wrote:
Sure, I may forget something by accident, but I have never intentionally scammed my opponent and for you to suggest otherwise is insulting.

No, I just think 40k has a big, complex ruleset and everyone breaks the rules at some level. You choosing to taking that fact personally is silly.

But the context is your intention of breaking rules, you seem to infer that knowingly breaking them is less a crime than being ignorant of them.
To say "oh well, the game is too complex to play right" seems pointless, so to infer "you most likely knowingly cheat" is what he would be left with.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I've definitely misinterpreted/misplayed rules when I was knew, hell, sometimes I still do unknowingly until I'm corrected and play the "correct" way. If I do something out of turn or by mistake and it's recent, I absolutely go back and fix it, or I make a note to not do that again.

I really doubt that, based on years of observation against thousands of players. You are really doing a lot to make yourself sound like a saint, and I wonder why you are working so hard at it.

"Thousands of players..." your social studies are unparalleled.
<edit> Almost forgot: this is called "projection" to assume your own motivations are the same as others: if you cheat, you think everyone else does... pretty straight forward stuff.
I have corrected many a person and been corrected on rules and most do their best to play by the rules.
Some people like to at least make the attempt to do the right thing, Sainthood is unnecessary, again it can be inferred you cannot be bothered.
A game is made with rules, it is what provides the challenge.
If one cannot be bothered to follow them, a whole different kind of game is being played without mutual consent.

 jreilly89 wrote:
What you're suggesting is outright anarchy and scummyness. I don't care if you built 5 LGS and donated thousands of dollars to players to support their armies, you play like a cheat and I shall call you as such. You make up rules only to gak on others, you pull the wool over other peoples eyes, and intentionally ruin the spirit of the game.

I said you can call me whatever you want, I am pretty secure and can deal with your antics.
But I asked that you be honest about how you play the game.
The way you describe your actions is a little too close to the ideal for me to believe you.
Maybe if you could get some other players to vouch for the fact you are such an honest, puritan player, that would lend some credibility to your claims.
But you are putting a lot of effort into making me out to be a bad guy, and I really don't think there's any clear black and white when you are talking about complying with the rules of 40k. Regardless of someone's actions.

"Puritan" hehe... quite the baiting of others.
The black and white is intent: mess with other person, "gas-light", intentionally misrepresent rules, feel the person deserves what he gets for not knowing them well enough to "fight you" on it.
Whatever is excuse enough to justify not doing the right thing.
All that is required is to follow the rules and be as evil as you want to be within them.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So forgive me for accidentally missing rules, but stow your holier than thou attitude. You're nothing more than a 4th grader who picks on 2nd grader.

Ah. That's the second time you accused me of beating up on people smaller than me.
Sorry you were bullied as a child and for the emotional scars it left.
But I am not your enemy.

I think it is more an accusation of bullying.
He kinda missed the attitude, it is of unjustified "superiority" not holy.
People do perfectly fine without needing lessons handed out in the form of misinformation and mind games.
It is a game of man-toys and is a hobby, a time to pass some time, have some fun... not at the expense of others.

I had a card-carrying narcissist for a mom, yep, makes you pretty damn tough and independent too.
Makes it real easy to see when someone is looking for some attention.

My notes are for the benefit of jreilly89:
You have some better ways to spend your time.
Yes, learn the rules well and have faith in what you know and do not question it because someone is using a loud voice full of confidence (= bluffing).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

You are a cheater, and I would not play you. If we did play, it would be because I had no other choice (i.e. tournament play) I'd be on you like a hawk, and I wouldn't be cutting you any slack. Try to pull any of that gak, and expect ZERO Sports from me.

There is a very big difference between deliberately, actively screwing your opponent, versus making a mistake. In your case, you are choosing to be a dick to your opponent. You suck as a player.

Those are also cheats, and I'll call you on all of them.

The difference is that an "honest" player makes a real effort to play the game clean. You don't. You are "that fething guy".

For some reason, namecalling on this forum doesn't offend me and seems kind of cheap.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
There's also a limit. I am in general a pretty straight guy when it comes to rules. Sure, I may forget something by accident, but I have never intentionally scammed my opponent and for you to suggest otherwise is insulting.

Like most cheaters, he thinks everybody else cheats. On purpose. Because he actively chooses to cheat people on purpose. That's how he tries to justify his behavior.

No. I have played 40k since 1989 and noticed most people don't stick to strict interpretations of the rules.

Not sure what's controversial about that. You can find plenty of threads about how many points can you go over when building a list, for instance, and plenty of battle reports where 'someone got it wrong.'

I realize someone could draw distinctions between that kind of behavior and what I described earlier in the list. But if that's not cheating, please explain what makes it legal.


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daemons bane wrote:
@ - technosoldaten, it don't matter how much one have done for his/her LGS to apologize for being a dick.. Deliberately cheating, just to see how far one can get, and using "education" as an excuse, is a bastard move.. Had it been at our LGS, no one would have trusted the cheater after such a high scale scam move..

Your LGS sounds like a pretty judgemental environment. I am more about inclusion and community, and accept people despite their faults.

This is my thread about TFGs:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

If you read through some of those posts, you will see the kind of tolerance it takes to build large communities of players even for people who are bringing the cheese.

Before I moved last year, we had about 250 active players who would show up at least once a month. I probably played about 100 of them and no one ever quit a game over anything I did.

daemons bane wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is quite a fun saying in my country, which directly translated reads "thief thinks every man steals" which comes to mind since you ask other players to get their friends or LGS players to vouch for them.. If that is how your LGS experiences have made you see the gamer community, I pity you

Calling people names on the Internet then quoting a proverb as though you were wise - which speaks louder?

I'm going to give this as my only reply to you, then you're going on Ignore.

You're damn right I'm calling you a cheater. But the funny thing is that it's not name-calling when it's accurate. Let's be very clear. You go into a game trying to deceive your opponent. You knowingly take an illegal list with extra points. You deliberately attempt to confuse the rules. And so on. You admitted to all of that gak above. That is cheating, plain and simple. Me calling you a cheater is simply calling a spade a spade. Or a rock a rock. Using the correct word is correct. You are a cheater.

As poster boy for "That fething Guy," you should at least have the intellectual honesty to understand and accept that you really are "That fething Guy."

Also, pretending that it's mere name-calling is even more dishonesty and misdirection. It's more lies and deceit on top of lies. It's self-deception at it's worst.

But I'll give you this, it is entirely consistent with what I would have expected from you. Someone has the balls to call you on your gak, you're still trying to redirect things at the other guy. This is why you're getting ZERO Sports from me.


As for strictness of play, players may choose to play tight or loose, and there is a certain consistency to be expected in their play. That is something that both players may choose to agree with. The difference is that, by default, players have to play by the rules. Players agreeing to something different as House Rules or mutual agreement doesn't change what the rules say.

There are no threads about legally going over. And mistakes can be made.

The difference is that a forthright, honest player owns the mistake. In my case, if I make a mistake that affects the game, I am more than willing to let the actual rules resolve the question. If I find out after the fact, I automatically concede the "win" to my opponent. I have that kind of personal integrity. You do not. I don't need to cheat to "win". I'd rather lose an honest game.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Guys stop feeding the troll. This is the internet, Just laugh and walk away.

Eh, not trolling anyone. Let's just remember, what I originally said is that cheating has it's place. We all know the #1 rule of 40k.

Like with the "Because The Blood God Demands" USR - the way it read: "Each model with the Mark of Khorne organized into squads of eight must bring double its number or cannot be fielded. These additional units can be included in any Codex: Chaos Space Marines Army at no additional points cost." What was funny was the idea I had more credibility than the Codex, which was sitting on a shelf within arms reach of any of the playing tables at the FLGS. All the CSM players knew it was BS, but it was about a year before anyone else realized the rule made no sense.

Cheating or not - that was a lot of fun for a lot of people.

 techsoldaten wrote:
My people on this thread have suggested not playing That Guy when he comes to the table. Play him.

As frustrating as it can be, you learn a lot when you play That Guy.

...If it was a low point game, I would still bring them all as part of an illegal list. If someone challenged me on it, I would use the "The Blood God Demands' USR that I completely made up...

...The list dominated, there were games where I did not lose a single model....

...I would force people to look stuff up throughout a game to challenge me...

...While none of this was good, it was entertaining....

Yeah, uhh, this is a by-the-books example of That Guy kind of behavior, I'd say it would be worth immediately halting a game and not playing with that person anymore ever if I played against someone like you (unless I HAD to, like in a tournament).

And there's a difference between not knowing the rules or having house rules that everyone agrees to and CHEATING. Deliberately cheating like that is crazy, it's not fun, and it's really ruining the game for everyone.

I guess I'm glad I don't know anybody at my local FLGS who's like this.

 techsoldaten wrote:

daemons bane wrote:
@ - technosoldaten, it don't matter how much one have done for his/her LGS to apologize for being a dick.. Deliberately cheating, just to see how far one can get, and using "education" as an excuse, is a bastard move.. Had it been at our LGS, no one would have trusted the cheater after such a high scale scam move..

Your LGS sounds like a pretty judgemental environment. I am more about inclusion and community, and accept people despite their faults.

This is my thread about TFGs:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

If you read through some of those posts, you will see the kind of tolerance it takes to build large communities of players even for people who are bringing the cheese.

Before I moved last year, we had about 250 active players who would show up at least once a month. I probably played about 100 of them and no one ever quit a game over anything I did.

Your LGS sounds like quite the den of thieves. Note I used LGS and not FLGS.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm going to give this as my only reply to you, then you're going on Ignore.

Awesome!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

You're damn right I'm calling you a cheater. But the funny thing is that it's not name-calling when it's accurate. Let's be very clear. You go into a game trying to deceive your opponent. You knowingly take an illegal list with extra points. You deliberately attempt to confuse the rules. And so on. You admitted to all of that gak above. That is cheating, plain and simple. Me calling you a cheater is simply calling a spade a spade. Or a rock a rock. Using the correct word is correct. You are a cheater.

Somehow, even with the childish name calling, the inky blackness in my heart just fails to stir. I think they call that not caring.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

As poster boy for "That fething Guy," you should at least have the intellectual honesty to understand and accept that you really are "That fething Guy."

I really don't see you as a credible authority for telling me what to think, feel or understand. The fact I will not be dealing with you anymore brings a little joy, but not much.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Also, pretending that it's mere name-calling is even more dishonesty and misdirection. It's more lies and deceit on top of lies. It's self-deception at it's worst.

One could argue that pretending that spending thousands of dollars on little plastic men, spending time painting them and hovering around a 6x4 table for endless hours debating a set of flawed / imperfect rules is worthwhile is self-deception. But I won't go there.

Getting all bent out of shape about it and insisting that people label themselves a certain way is taking it to a whole new level.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

But I'll give you this, it is entirely consistent with what I would have expected from you. Someone has the balls to call you on your gak, you're still trying to redirect things at the other guy. This is why you're getting ZERO Sports from me.

You must know me so well outside this forum to make claims like that. Is it you God?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

As for strictness of play, players may choose to play tight or loose, and there is a certain consistency to be expected in their play. That is something that both players may choose to agree with. The difference is that, by default, players have to play by the rules. Players agreeing to something different as House Rules or mutual agreement doesn't change what the rules say.

Blah blah blah.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

There are no threads about legally going over. And mistakes can be made.

Here are the first three I found in a Google search. Happy to point at others on the topic, as well as other 'cheater' threads if it will help. You commented on many of them.

"Points values - how much over will you allow?"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568799.page

"How many points over do you allow a person to be?"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337597.page

"Just exceeding the agreed points limit - how much is too much?"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/448783.page

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The difference is that a forthright, honest player owns the mistake. In my case, if I make a mistake that affects the game, I am more than willing to let the actual rules resolve the question. If I find out after the fact, I automatically concede the "win" to my opponent. I have that kind of personal integrity. You do not. I don't need to cheat to "win". I'd rather lose an honest game.

The great irony here is that it's against the rules of the forum to call people names.

But what if someone owns the cheating? Like, I don't really care about winning so much as having fun.

Like, when I remind someone to take Gets Hot rolls on a bolt pistol, is that cheating or just getting a laugh? When they do it, fail and remove a model, and then I tell them about splash damage and it gets the whole unit, what then? When I then tell that person, who claimed to have been at NOVA a couple months before and placed in the top 30, that all units in 12 inches need to take a leadership test counting the models lost as casualties, and that person has the entire army is running off the board, are we still in the realm of wins / losses or something else entirely?

Sometimes, when two people do something as pointless and stupid as playing the same game for a decade or two, you just need to laugh. Lighten up.

So... That took a turn for the absurd.

I think we're done here.