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 NoseGoblin wrote:
As to the buildings. You do not need a StuG to play the game, you do need terrain that blocks line of sight from 8.5” tall models. I have no interest in playing a game where two sides line up, move once and unload. As Robey finalizes the Alpha rules, I need to ready with the foundation, working terrain is part of that foundation.
When I started this many years ago, I knew what I wanted and how I wanted it to play the terrain is as important to the game quality as the miniatures themselves. The buildings have a Bladerunner feel 1920- 1940 architecture with pipes and greebles to sci-fi them, it fits with the Eisenkern esthetic but can be easily switched up to play WWII, contemporary zombie, etc by simply swapping out the bits packs.

The buildings have me very interested! As shown by Secret Weapon's Tablescapes campaign, WGF can do large things. Affordable buildings done right would also net you tons of sales for games that require dense or at least large terrain, like Infinity.

As a standard release, not a Kickstarter, hopefully

Pretty sure Mark said he wouldn't be doing Kickstarter again any time soon.

The plan is to do regular retail releases from WGF on items for a while.

"Anytime Soon" could be a condition easily met if he meant from the time-frame when this one funded and then shipped complete!

So, when can I buy those assault troopers? Because I need some bullgryn stand-ins.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zbWJVd2KCdE/U7yYWqXKT3I/AAAAAAAADwc/p-oAyxxIiCg/s1600/Banner+Valkir+Assault+Troopers.jpg

Next year sometime. Hopefully before July, but I wouldn't put money down on it.

This stuff is exceptionally nice, cant wait to see a couple of forces and some rules to play, i really like the concept for the accesorie box for the normal blokes, very good idea

The accessory box indeed has some nice stuff in it. If you'd like some of the Einsenkern Stormtroopers in the meantime, Combat Company here in AU stocks them for a reasonable price.

Mark mentioned maybe doing the accessories box for the Valkir which I dearly hope he does. The stormtrooper accessory box is one of the best product ideas I've seen, the variety it offers is great and it's plastic, not resin or metal like you'd normally see for similar things. I've done some test models for a Dreadball Eisenkern team using it and it meant very little work required. Individual hand poses and so on... love it ; )

For UK residents, you can pick up a couple of bargains at Northstar miniatures

28mm Leviathan Mortis £44 (will only ship to UK)
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5806

15mm Leviathan Crusader £28
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5809

It worries me greatly that I can't remember if I received my 15mm Mortis. Have they and/or the other 15mm weapon arms gone out yet?

iirc the 15mm arms joined a shipment to the US a while ago. I forget if they then shipped out to people who only ordered them from this wave though.

I'm so confused. Neither this one nor the Raging Heroes one make any sense to me.

Well Raging Heroes sure.

This one, Wave 1 and 2 are shipped. Wave 3 will ship to us when this stuff is finished:


The stuff that made it's way to America did so to fill up a container that was already going. If that's all someone ordered, I'm not sure if it was shipping to them or waiting until everything from the wave was ready. Wasn't paying attention since it didn't concern me hehe.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It worries me greatly that I can't remember if I received my 15mm Mortis. Have they and/or the other 15mm weapon arms gone out yet?

You should have your 15mm Leviathan. The Mortii and weapon arms have not gone out yet, and China Said No to any sub-shipments. So 2015 most likely.

Also, blah blah shamefully negative raging heroes comment blah blah.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
For UK residents, you can pick up a couple of bargains at Northstar miniatures

28mm Leviathan Mortis £44 (will only ship to UK)
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5806

15mm Leviathan Crusader £28
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5809

Cheers Orlando

Too good an offer to not order one.

 RiTides wrote:

 NoseGoblin wrote:
As to the buildings. You do not need a StuG to play the game, you do need terrain that blocks line of sight from 8.5” tall models. I have no interest in playing a game where two sides line up, move once and unload. As Robey finalizes the Alpha rules, I need to ready with the foundation, working terrain is part of that foundation.
When I started this many years ago, I knew what I wanted and how I wanted it to play the terrain is as important to the game quality as the miniatures themselves. The buildings have a Bladerunner feel 1920- 1940 architecture with pipes and greebles to sci-fi them, it fits with the Eisenkern esthetic but can be easily switched up to play WWII, contemporary zombie, etc by simply swapping out the bits packs.

The buildings have me very interested! As shown by Secret Weapon's Tablescapes campaign, WGF can do large things. Affordable buildings done right would also net you tons of sales for games that require dense or at least large terrain, like Infinity.

As a standard release, not a Kickstarter, hopefully

That's nice and all, but the buildings in the artwork definitely don't have that feel. I don't mind the 1920-1940s feel, but it should still have that grand feeling if you want it to get that Bladerunner vibe. Now it just looks like normal contemporary architecture but with space nazis running between them, which is a shame since you've put so much love into the Eisenkern.

Space Krauts, if we want to be precise. They never had the opportunity to form the nazi party. Who knows which symbol from an alien culture they were able to subvert instead of the swastika...

Makes me want to paint The Artist's symbol on my troops, just for gaks and giggles.

 Azazelx wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It worries me greatly that I can't remember if I received my 15mm Mortis. Have they and/or the other 15mm weapon arms gone out yet?

You should have your 15mm Leviathan. The Mortii and weapon arms have not gone out yet, and China Said No to any sub-shipments. So 2015 most likely.

Thanks for the update - I ordered a bunch of 15mm arms (now going to someone else) and thought I missed something...

 Azazelx wrote:

Also, blah blah shamefully negative raging heroes comment blah blah.

Heh...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Space Krauts, if we want to be precise. They never had the opportunity to form the nazi party. Who knows which symbol from an alien culture they were able to subvert instead of the swastika...

Makes me want to paint The Artist's symbol on my troops, just for gaks and giggles.

You are talking about fluff written after the fact to justify the visually-obvious space nazis without actually making them nazis.

Next we'll find out the dickwolves aren't really bad because those are just fluid-filled bladders that only happen to look like razordicks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or how Brother Vinnie's nudists are interpreting negative emotions through dance.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Space Krauts, if we want to be precise. They never had the opportunity to form the nazi party. Who knows which symbol from an alien culture they were able to subvert instead of the swastika...

Makes me want to paint The Artist's symbol on my troops, just for gaks and giggles.

You are talking about fluff written after the fact to justify the visually-obvious space nazis without actually making them nazis.

Really? Do you have direct confirmation from Mark as to what his design process and influences were?

No, you're intentionally assigning Nazi party organization to the look of the Eisenkern infantry helmet.

That helmet type was actually designed in WW1, BEFORE the Nazi party formed.

And not everyone in the Whermacht was a Nazi. Plenty of regular soldiers were not Nazis.

ski2060 wrote:
No, you're intentionally assigning Nazi party organization to the look of the Eisenkern infantry helmet.

That helmet type was actually designed in WW1, BEFORE the Nazi party formed.

And not everyone in the Whermacht was a Nazi. Plenty of regular soldiers were not Nazis.

While that's true, the eagle insignia on the chestplate in context with the helmet bumps the overall look into Third Reich iconography.

Just, sayin', I don't really care one way or the other.

EDITED for clarity.

 Dr Mathias wrote:

ski2060 wrote:
No, you're intentionally assigning Nazi party organization to the look of the Eisenkern infantry helmet.

That helmet type was actually designed in WW1, BEFORE the Nazi party formed.

And not everyone in the Whermacht was a Nazi. Plenty of regular soldiers were not Nazis.

While that's true, the eagle insignia on the chestplate in context with the helmet bumps the overall look into Third Reich iconography.

Just, sayin', I don't really care one way or the other.

EDITED for clarity.

Well, the Gemans have had a thing for the Eagle or Reichsadler since medieval times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsadler

Here is the one for the first world war

 Dr Mathias wrote:

ski2060 wrote:
No, you're intentionally assigning Nazi party organization to the look of the Eisenkern infantry helmet.

That helmet type was actually designed in WW1, BEFORE the Nazi party formed.

And not everyone in the Whermacht was a Nazi. Plenty of regular soldiers were not Nazis.

While that's true, the eagle insignia on the chestplate in context with the helmet bumps the overall look into Third Reich iconography.

Normally I don't like to get into such matters, but that is just utter nonsense. Being German does not equate to being Nazi, and that's a BS stereotype that needs to stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsadler

The eagle as a symbol of Imperial Germany dates back to the Holy Roman Empire, and draws it's roots from the Roman Empire-proper where the Eagle was the symbol of the Legions. Does that make it a symbol with a violent and imperialistic past? Yes. Were both Roman and Germanic symbols later co-opted by the Nazi party in an effort to stir up a frenzy of nationalism and with an eye towards replicating their dominance? Sure, but that's playing to the crowd with familiar symbols, not unlike how politicians in the midst of scandal make copious use of the Bible and the flag in the US.

However, there is nothing inherently "Nazi" about eagles (Rome), Iron Crosses (a Teutonic symbol dating back to the Crusades), or Stahlhelms (WW1). If Mark had designed twin lightning bolt insignia, or used rank designations like Oberscharführer instead of Feldwebel, had given them uniform cuts in line with those issued to the Waffen-SS, or had the obvious association of giving them a lopsided hooked cross (actual symbols used by Nazis in particular), the argument would have some merit. If you feel I'm overlooking some piece of Germanic history that is only tied in with the Third Reich and is present in the Eisenkern, feel free to bring that forth. As it stands, I can see no evidence whatsoever to support the idea other than people's own prejudices, which was sort of the entire problem with Hitler's regime if one looks to history.

 Krinsath wrote:

 Dr Mathias wrote:

ski2060 wrote:
No, you're intentionally assigning Nazi party organization to the look of the Eisenkern infantry helmet.

That helmet type was actually designed in WW1, BEFORE the Nazi party formed.

And not everyone in the Whermacht was a Nazi. Plenty of regular soldiers were not Nazis.

While that's true, the eagle insignia on the chestplate in context with the helmet bumps the overall look into Third Reich iconography.

Normally I don't like to get into such matters, but that is just utter nonsense. Being German does not equate to being Nazi, and that's a BS stereotype that needs to stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsadler

The eagle as a symbol of Imperial Germany dates back to the Holy Roman Empire, and draws it's roots from the Roman Empire-proper where the Eagle was the symbol of the Legions. Does that make it a symbol with a violent and imperialistic past? Yes. Were both Roman and Germanic symbols later co-opted by the Nazi party in an effort to stir up a frenzy of nationalism and with an eye towards replicating their dominance? Sure, but that's playing to the crowd with familiar symbols, not unlike how politicians in the midst of scandal make copious use of the Bible and the flag in the US.

However, there is nothing inherently "Nazi" about eagles (Rome), Iron Crosses (a Teutonic symbol dating back to the Crusades), or Stahlhelms (WW1). If Mark had designed twin lightning bolt insignia, or used rank designations like Oberscharführer instead of Feldwebel, had given them uniform cuts in line with those issued to the Waffen-SS, or had the obvious association of giving them a lopsided hooked cross (actual symbols used by Nazis in particular), the argument would have some merit. If you feel I'm overlooking some piece of Germanic history that is only tied in with the Third Reich and is present in the Eisenkern, feel free to bring that forth. As it stands, I can see no evidence whatsoever to support the idea other than people's own prejudices, which was sort of the entire problem with Hitler's regime if one looks to history.

I already linked it is just above your post Krinsath! Ninja'd!

...check their left upper arm for eagles...

Their gun designs look awfully WWII inspired though. Not to mention those vehicles.

 BrookM wrote:
Their gun designs look awfully WWII inspired though. Not to mention those vehicles.

I'm not sure technology can really have a political affiliation. Yes, the vehicles were used by the Nazi war machine, but they were not designed by Nazis. The Hanomag and StuG were designed by Germans and in both cases to adhere to military requirements laid down by regular Army officers (Guderian and von Manstein, respectively). Given that those experiences likely would have occurred anyway as part of the natural evolution of armored warfare, cribbing notes from "the future" to populate an alternate timeline is not indicative of political leanings of a faction but rather design motifs. Given that from the time of the 1950s to the modern era Russian tanks share features that make them readily identifiable as "Russian", it's hard to say a nation doesn't have certain traits it sticks to in its military hardware. The same can be said of firearm families; you can tell the difference between a US or USSR weapon from the 1950s all the way to today pretty readily.

To be fair, the tech of WW2 that was created as part of the rearmament of Germany absolutely does have a political element, since many of the designers and engineers were Nazis. While I'm by no means one of those "all Germans were Nazis" guys, we can't pretend that the hardware was designed in a political vacuum by non-affiliated robots.

And let's also be blunt here - despite any fluff written pre-or-post production of the figures, none of us, and especially Mark are stupid enough to think that spacemans called Stormtroopers armed with Stalhhelms, MP40s, MG42s, Panzerfausts, Hanomags and Stugs are going to be viewed as anything other than the Third Reich in Spaaaaaaace. Sticking the Imperial German Naval Ensign on the box doesn't really make much difference, and neither does the fact that the term "stormtroopers" was coined in WW1. Because it's clearly not WW1 Germans in Spaaaaace, it's the Third Reich in Spaaaaaaace..

Or TLDR: It is what it is. Looks like a duck and all that. No point pretending it's not a duck because the colours on the flag are slightly different.

 Azazelx wrote:
To be fair, the tech of WW2 that was created as part of the rearmament of Germany absolutely does have a political element, since many of the designers and engineers were Nazis. While I'm by no means one of those "all Germans were Nazis" guys, we can't pretend that the hardware was designed in a political vacuum by non-affiliated robots.

And let's also be blunt here - despite any fluff written pre-or-post production of the figures, none of us, and especially Mark are stupid enough to think that spacemans called Stormtroopers armed with Stalhhelms, MP40s, MG42s, Panzerfausts, Hanomags and Stugs are going to be viewed as anything other than the Third Reich in Spaaaaaaace. Sticking the Imperial German Naval Ensign on the box doesn't really make much difference, and neither does the fact that the term "stormtroopers" was coined in WW1. Because it's clearly not WW1 Germans in Spaaaaace, it's the Third Reich in Spaaaaaaace..

Or TLDR: It is what it is. Looks like a duck and all that. No point pretending it's not a duck because the colours on the flag are slightly different.

Again, we're back into the "prejudice of the observer" and not "facts." Political affiliation has jack all to do with design, as any engineer will tell you. Just because a hypothetical designer believes in limited government, or the rights of the individual, doesn't mean they will look at a battlefield problem and go "You know, we really need to make sure that the turret of this tank is round." You will design to meet the needs of the battlefield doctrine of your nation and you will incorporate the motifs that your manufacturing and martial capabilities allow. The battlefield is wonderfully egalitarian in this regard; the best ideas usually win regardless of who did or didn't think of them and thus politics is generally not a factor in what gets used in the field for any appreciable length of time. Survival of the fittest is quite literal there, after all.

To step away from the loaded topic of the Third Reich, consider the T-34. It's based around a suspension designed by an American, who at the time would have been viewed as a filthy, unenlightened capitalist politically. However, the designers of the tanks said "screw politics, this design lets us do X, Y and Z" and one of the better tanks of the war in terms of fitting Russian battle doctrine results, even if it was "tainted" politcally by using American ideas. Hence why I express doubt that political affiliation can be attributed to technology.