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 MajorStoffer wrote:
You know what I noticed first with the terrain? no dead cadians. they won't fit the aesthetic of of the wall o' dead cadians very well, and look that much better for it.

If they're useable in normal games, I might get the redoubt for my Krieg, as I can't stand the dead cadians of the normal line.

There seems to be a dead cadian or two on Firestorm Redoubt, piled below the parchments hanging from giant skulls.

I don't like the Necron Vault thingy, but the Skulldozer is seriously tempting. I have always enjoyed painting skulls, and this seems to have set the new record. For now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They charge what people will pay.

Correction, they charge what they THINK people will pay, I have no doubt some people will pay it but the consistent falling sales says not enough.

"We can charge whatever we want. 1000 a day. 10000 a day. And people will pay it." - Donald Genarro, Jurassic Park.

And he got eaten by a T-Rex. What's going to eat GW?

Damn, I'll pay to see Kirby being eaten by a T-Rex.

 JeffVimes wrote:
Damn, I'll pay to see Kirby being eaten by a T-Rex.

With lascannons in it's nostrils. This is Warhammer 40,000, after all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"We can charge whatever we want. 1000 a day. 10000 a day. And people will pay it." - Donald Genarro, Jurassic Park.


And he got eaten by a T-Rex. What's going to eat GW?

Lego T-Rex?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"We can charge whatever we want. 1000 a day. 10000 a day. And people will pay it." - Donald Genarro, Jurassic Park.


And he got eaten by a T-Rex. What's going to eat GW?

Nids

No one thing will bring down the GW juggernaut, it'll be a slow painful death by 1000 cuts.

 Enigwolf wrote:


Look at the Volk models. They lack a lot of the finer, small details that GW's 28mm miniatures have.

..

That being said, I don't disagree that GW does, to an extent, charge what their customers are willing to pay. This is the nature of the elasticity of the market combined with the indifference curve of the point it'll take for GW's customers to switch to their competitors. How many times have people whined about price hikes, and then still go out to buy a new army when a 'dex gets released? And hey, guess what? Every company does this to make the most money that they can. The point it will come to is when GW's marginal profits will start dropping.

I would say that the Khornedozer is missing the finer, small details that their infantry models have, as well.. Hence the less-textured "toy robot" appearance.

..

When talking about prices, there's multiple things and effects you have to consider. There's optimal balance point of sales numbers vs. profit per model that's one thing, but in GW's case the prices also affect things like army sizes, having multiple armies, beginner costs etc. The latter things affect their gaming presence and word-of-mouth advertisement, and I think one big mistake what they are making is underestimating this effect. I'd say cheaper models would bring more hobbyists and larger armies, that would further stabilize their position as the leading system and benefit them more than current high prices.

Well I think that time is coming real soon when they will have to wake up and smell the coffee....the ridiculous price hikes and the outrageous prices of all the new stuff have driven the 20+ WH40K/WHF players away they all switched to Warmahordes nowadays its damn hard to get anyone to drag out their big box of 40K army compared to their little box of 50 pts of Warmahordes. The price hurdle is crippling WH40k look at the crowds playing at games day they are getting older and older there is less new blood b/c its all way to damn expensive. Look at the new Khorne Lord of Battle $160 USD !!! Damn I could get a decent LCD Monitor or even a TV for that price and its a hell of a lot more complex to manufacture and made of more plastic that that damn thing. I will not be surprised when they jack up the Land Raider cost to $100 before the end of the year. (even at the $75 where its at now for that price the damn box should have came with ALL the different variant sprues..Crusader ect..)

The Khorne Kildozer looks like the start of a nice Robot/Knight and the hull looks like a pretty cool tank, but they do not belong together but could make two very interesting models.

It carries too hefty a price tag to test that theory though.

 prowla wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Look at the Volk models. They lack a lot of the finer, small details that GW's 28mm miniatures have.

..

That being said, I don't disagree that GW does, to an extent, charge what their customers are willing to pay. This is the nature of the elasticity of the market combined with the indifference curve of the point it'll take for GW's customers to switch to their competitors. How many times have people whined about price hikes, and then still go out to buy a new army when a 'dex gets released? And hey, guess what? Every company does this to make the most money that they can. The point it will come to is when GW's marginal profits will start dropping.

I would say that the Khornedozer is missing the finer, small details that their infantry models have, as well.. Hence the less-textured "toy robot" appearance.

..

When talking about prices, there's multiple things and effects you have to consider. There's optimal balance point of sales numbers vs. profit per model that's one thing, but in GW's case the prices also affect things like army sizes, having multiple armies, beginner costs etc. The latter things affect their gaming presence and word-of-mouth advertisement, and I think one big mistake what they are making is underestimating this effect. I'd say cheaper models would bring more hobbyists and larger armies, that would further stabilize their position as the leading system and benefit them more than current high prices.

Frankly, I don't agree with the Khornedozer's aesthetic either. And neither do I agree with that of the DV models. However, to produce the amount of detail on the DV models was likely no small feat - this insofar of itself was covered by another more technically-minded individual than myself. Again, if I ever need to field a Khornedozer, I'm scratchbuilding or kitbashing one.

Yes, I agree with that too. I disagree with GW's business strategy, and intend to question them on it at Enter the Citadel next month, but from a corporate business standpoint (from the people at the top *coughkirbycough* who have no interest in sustaining the hobby) it's a good money-making decision to have taken. However, what I disapprove of are the blithering masses just spewing the GW haterade onto the whole company from the top corporate execs right down to the hapless game developers at the bottom without a rudimentary understanding of why GW operates the way it does and ultimately deciding that the reason is because GW is evil. Just because.

Hard to believe it, but the new Baneblade pricing makes the Forgeworld Stormblade seem... more reasonable now?

I've always wanted one, and I already have a Stormhammer, so...

 Alpharius wrote:
Hard to believe it, but the new Baneblade pricing makes the Forgeworld Stormblade seem... more reasonable now?

I've always wanted one, and I already have a Stormhammer, so...

Do it. DO IT

People do realize they are screaming about "massive" price increases on Apoc stuff right? The price for the Wraithknight is inline with a model of similar size and outside of the repackaged DA's the prices on all other eldar stuff was reasonable. They even discounted full units of walkers, artillery, and 3-man's of bikes for various armies.

But yeah, rage, sneaky price hikes!

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Temujin wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Still a poor comparison. GW crams a crapton of detail into those models at the 28mm level. The amount of plastic isn't just what drives the cost, but also the cost to design the models, and then test (e.g. heat tolerances, stress tolerances, etc.) of the mould shape/pattern. GW also produces their models in the UK, which has a base higher cost of production, and this gets translated back to us.

I fail to see how any of what you wrote doesn't apply to the example posted. Do you think the Volks models design themselves? Are you sure production costs are cheaper in Japan?

Regardless of any comparison, you'd have to be insane to suggest that the price of GW kits is driven by production costs. Were they selling below cost before they ramped up prices on the likes of baneblades or dire avengers? No. They charge what a dwindling amount of people will pay.

Look at the Volk models. They lack a lot of the finer, small details that GW's 28mm miniatures have.

What are you talking about, son? Look at those chain/tendril/tails hanging off the back. These kits have every bit as much detail as GW kits. What they don't have, is over-wrought texture. It doesn't take loads of testing or design skills to cover everything with skullz and rivets.

it's not as if GW is turning trillions of dollars of profit off of their models, their own costs are pretty steep.

I'm not going to believe this without some numbers. While I'm sure they don't make "trillions" of dollars, exactly what GW's per model profit margin is has to my knowledge never been published and is subject to speculation. However, given that on more than one occasion existing models have doubled in price without one jot of change in quality, I feel totally comfortable speculating that GW's per model profit margin is not small.

Not to mention that as a large listed company, there are other services and departments within that do not generate revenue in of themselves (Accounting, Operations, to say the least) which have to have their costs covered by their revenues

You think Japanese model companies don't have these departments?

Every company does this to make the most money that they can.

Make the most money they can today, or make the most money they can long term?

The "companies do this to make money"-argument is getting old.

If we raised our prices annually in the same manner GW does I have no doubt most of our existing clients would be finished with us rather quickly.

If your only goal is to make money then you're probably doing a bad job of providing for your employees and your own personal brand in the long run.

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but the reason I put so much effort into the small business I work in is because I LOVE it, and I want it to be able to provide for me, my colleagues and community for a good while going forward.

If you're not profitable enough then raising prices alone is probably not going to fix that. And it's a fool-proof way of alienating customers who, it's pretty clear by now, are looking at your prices rather than other factors when making their purchasing decisions.

 JOHIRA wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Temujin wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Still a poor comparison. GW crams a crapton of detail into those models at the 28mm level. The amount of plastic isn't just what drives the cost, but also the cost to design the models, and then test (e.g. heat tolerances, stress tolerances, etc.) of the mould shape/pattern. GW also produces their models in the UK, which has a base higher cost of production, and this gets translated back to us.

I fail to see how any of what you wrote doesn't apply to the example posted. Do you think the Volks models design themselves? Are you sure production costs are cheaper in Japan?

Regardless of any comparison, you'd have to be insane to suggest that the price of GW kits is driven by production costs. Were they selling below cost before they ramped up prices on the likes of baneblades or dire avengers? No. They charge what a dwindling amount of people will pay.

Look at the Volk models. They lack a lot of the finer, small details that GW's 28mm miniatures have.

What are you talking about, son? Look at those chain/tendril/tails hanging off the back. These kits have every bit as much detail as GW kits. What they don't have, is over-wrought texture. It doesn't take loads of testing or design skills to cover everything with skullz and rivets.

First of all. "Son"? Really? Are you going to proceed to lecture me now and then spank me afterwards? Great way of treating people with respect.

I don't know Japanese, but I've browsed through the pages of that site. None of their models come close to achieving the detail fidelity that GW 28mm models have. That "over-wrought texture" that you are referring to, and again, the DV models are a good example here with their small spikes and details, actually require technical skill and equipment to be able to cast with so little brittleness and defects.

it's not as if GW is turning trillions of dollars of profit off of their models, their own costs are pretty steep.

I'm not going to believe this without some numbers. While I'm sure they don't make "trillions" of dollars, exactly what GW's per model profit margin is has to my knowledge never been published and is subject to speculation. However, given that on more than one occasion existing models have doubled in price without one jot of change in quality, I feel totally comfortable speculating that GW's per model profit margin is not small.

Again, you cannot simply look at profit margin-per-model. That doesn't take into account so many overhead costs as I have mentioned before. Here is a copy of the GW financials from fiscal year 2011-2012. You are welcome to peruse it at your leisure which clearly details that their profit margin is in the figure of 10% or less before dividends are paid. For the industry, it's not a very high profit margin, and this is already significantly inflated by the some 4 million GBP of royalties received.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Final-group-accounts-3-June-2012.pdf

Not to mention that as a large listed company, there are other services and departments within that do not generate revenue in of themselves (Accounting, Operations, to say the least) which have to have their costs covered by their revenues

You think Japanese model companies don't have these departments?

Please find me a listed Japanese model company operating at the same scale of GW producing a similar range of 28mm miniatures.

Every company does this to make the most money that they can.

Make the most money they can today, or make the most money they can long term?

Seeing as how I don't run the company, I can't comment on which of the two GW is working towards. Suffice to say, they're making their investors and shareholders happy. In this world, there are companies that seek to achieve both goals, the latter isn't rare either, since that's a great way to inflate the valuation of your company before a buyout or for senior managers to sell their stocks and quit.

Satan wrote:
The "companies do this to make money"-argument is getting old.

If we raised our prices annually in the same manner GW does I have no doubt most of our existing clients would be finished with us rather quickly.

If your only goal is to make money then you're probably doing a bad job of providing for your employees and your own personal brand in the long run.

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but the reason I put so much effort into the small business I work in is because I LOVE it, and I want it to be able to provide for me, my colleagues and community for a good while going forward.

If you're not profitable enough then raising prices alone is probably not going to fix that. And it's a fool-proof way of alienating customers who, it's pretty clear by now, are looking at your prices rather than other factors when making their purchasing decisions.

It's because you're a liberal social democrat happiness orientated model society scandinavian. This is big business. The owners will rip their customers off as long as they can, then start firing their employees due to being cost ineffective, trimming all the fat from the company and setting it into shape to be sold for the highest bidder so they can cash out and retire.

The Book, the strategic asset cards, and vortex template is all I'm buying. I don't really need the vortex template as I already have one...but having multiples will be cool.

Well, if you need to be as big as GW, in the same market GW competes in, in order to be compared to GW... I guess nobody can be compared to GW.

Satan wrote:The "companies do this to make money"-argument is getting old.

If we raised our prices annually in the same manner GW does I have no doubt most of our existing clients would be finished with us rather quickly.

If your only goal is to make money then you're probably doing a bad job of providing for your employees and your own personal brand in the long run.

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but the reason I put so much effort into the small business I work in is because I LOVE it, and I want it to be able to provide for me, my colleagues and community for a good while going forward.

If you're not profitable enough then raising prices alone is probably not going to fix that. And it's a fool-proof way of alienating customers who, it's pretty clear by now, are looking at your prices rather than other factors when making their purchasing decisions.

To be fair, you usually can only sell your soul once. Unless Hell's accounting department has been getting shoddy, in which case I think we're about to see a bubble in the Soul Futures market.

 Lansirill wrote:
Well, if you need to be as big as GW, in the same market GW competes in, in order to be compared to GW... I guess nobody can be compared to GW.

Anything else would be comparing apples to oranges.

In any case, we're getting off-topic here.

Anyone else got updates as to the dice cube? I'm still kinda curious as to whether it's a re-release of the old Apocalypse Dice (which were atrocious to roll, I might add, but still cool to look at!)

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Lansirill wrote:
Well, if you need to be as big as GW, in the same market GW competes in, in order to be compared to GW... I guess nobody can be compared to GW.

Anything else would be comparing apples to oranges.

You know, I really would love to bang this around a bit, but I'm pretty sure we're getting way off topic here. Blargle. Dang not getting to have the last word. I call do-overs!

Edit: Heh, well, at least we both noticed it.

Indeed, kudos for the spot and I appreciate that $/£s are always going to be a concern with regards to the latest releases, but I think it better if further discussion is done elsewhere & when.

Thanks

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
The Book, the strategic asset cards, and vortex template is all I'm buying. I don't really need the vortex template as I already have one...but having multiples will be cool.

damn straight !

... might be tempted by the dice as .. well...err .. . they're new .... I mean because the game ...

.. cause I'm weak.

 Alpharius wrote:
Hard to believe it, but the new Baneblade pricing makes the Forgeworld Stormblade seem... more reasonable now?

I've always wanted one, and I already have a Stormhammer, so...

You really should. I have assembled one and it's a great kit. It's a bit easier to assemble than the chimera sized FW conversion kits because the main components are bigger. Now I just need to pull myself together and get mine painted for the coming apocalypse.

That big Lord of Battles is growing on me, I must admit. Not likely to spend the £95 on one when it could buy so much other stuff, but it is growing on me.

Ok this may be my weirdest reply ever but the only thing wich comes to mind is...

Hold you're breath...

"Pretty Woman"

In this movie it is explained. People buy/sell companies just to make profit out of them as quick and as much as possible. They drain companies to the buttom. Then they show their profit to any who is interested, sell the company under false information, leave the company on its final breath with a whole lot of money in their pocket.

Company destroyed, the common folk devestated.

I don't think it's fair, but somehow I think they do a better job on nursing their healthy (rich) life. So who are the fools?

I am sorry to say but it might be us!

I hope someone will take over this company soon and sets it back fairly to everyone, both to the staff as the customer.

BTW The larger the company the more efficient it get and so less costly a company gets. (Including more advance machinery, better artists and so on) (i.e. creating 1 model which is sold 10 000 times with a automated machine and 3d software is easierer and in the end less costly then to create one which is sold 100 times crafted by hand with trial and error in wearing molds)

By the way Pretty Woman is about Julia Roberts' legs not so much business.

You shouldn't be looking for business tips there.

On Topic here please.

Thanks.

fable_dd wrote:

BTW The larger the company the more efficient it get and so less costly a company gets. (Including more advance machinery, better artists and so on) (i.e. creating 1 model which is sold 10 000 times with a automated machine and 3d software is easierer and in the end less costly then to create one which is sold 100 times crafted by hand with trial and error in wearing molds)

Wrong. Economies of scale reduce costs, but scale increases administrative complexity.

Back on topic please.

Do the Stormhammer and Baneblade hull tanks on FW use the plastic Baneblade chassis or the old FW one?