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2013/07/08 06:27:38
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but if HP on Super-Heavies function like regular HP's (and there's no reason to assume they don't), then these things are just as fragile if not moreso than they were before (9 glances and dead!). They're worth around the 350-450 mark, not 500+.
Yeah I'll concede that point, I come at it from a warped perspective as the only superheavy I've regularly played with is 700 points for 18HP's. Though even with that fragility in mind my group still has superheavy phobia and severely limits what we can bring to a game.
That is the Nurgle Plague Tower. It is one of the few super heavies that are worth it. Especially with an L3 Herald of Tzeentch inside using divination.
Khorne mower = not worth it. It is an awesome looking model, but there are far better ways to spend those points. Even if it is immune to shaken, stun, immobile, and weapon destroyed.
The problem I've had since the 6th update is how easy it is to stun and shake passengers in superheavies with the amount of fire they tend to attract, used to use the 10 fire points on the tower to make it a bit of a gunboat, then again if these rumours of stun and shake immunity pan out then it will indeed be one of the good ones again, assuming everyone is happy with using older datasheets in new apoc. Not had an apoc game since the daemons update, sounds horrid but I tend to stuff it with nurgle marked units that don't get hurt if it pops.
Whenever I run it (I have a custom built one), I fill it with the following:
Typhus
20 Plague Marines
L3 Chaos Sorcerer (telepathy)
3 Nurgle Obliterators
l3 Herald of Tzeentch (divination)
I believe the above loadout is optimal. However, points permitting, you could drop 1 Obliterator for another L3 Chaos Sorcerer & L3 Tzeentch Herald.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/08 06:31:00
2013/07/08 07:13:08
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think the problem is that people don't bring enough super heavies to a fight. If you play an Apocalypse game with only one Baneblade, then of course the Baneblade will dominate and will seem overpowered in comparison to codex units (and, in my opinion, the Baneblade is one of the least scary super heavies).
In all the games I've played, this has never been the case. Baneblades were always far too fragile for their points, and ridiculously easy to kill. More often than not, if I lost first turn, I never got to use mine at all, because it evaporated in the first shooting phase. If not that, then someone would bring down Terminators or Fire Dragons nearby and reduce it to ash.
The supply does not get to make the demands.
2013/07/08 09:12:21
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Really not impressed with these rules so far. New D-weapons are stupidly overpowered against smaller stuff (use deep strike melta to kill superheavies and D-weapons to wipe models off the table by the handful), lots of random tables in a game type that already has way too much tedious dice rolling, formations based on how the models are positioned that will produce endless arguing about whether the tank squadron is in a perfect line or not, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/08 11:33:19
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/07/08 12:23:36
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Regarding the Deep Strike wiping, how is that different from old Str D though?
At any rate, at least Str D is now good at killing Gargantuan Creatures as well. The old rules created a massive disparity between firing Str D at a Superheavy Vehicle compared to firing at a Gargantuan Creature.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/07/08 13:47:19
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
I'm pretty happy so far. Some of these new rules sound like a lot of fun. Str D worries the heck out me. It was super good before but now it's basically a vortex. Losing ID is great for nids but tank formations are going to die a horrible death, especially if the Shadowsword Str D turret is unchanged. Also, the new C'tan thing appears to get an Str D hellstorm, so depending on its stats and the gargantuan creature rules, that could be ridiculous (Plus the model is TINY). Here's hoping that a lot of Str D blast weapons are severely toned down in range and size. Titans didn't particularly need to be stronger...
We'll see. If it makes large games a little more playable, then I'm all for that. If house rules still need to be made then that's fine too, no changes there. Either way, it'll be interesting to see.
2013/07/08 14:02:25
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think the problem is that people don't bring enough super heavies to a fight. If you play an Apocalypse game with only one Baneblade, then of course the Baneblade will dominate and will seem overpowered in comparison to codex units (and, in my opinion, the Baneblade is one of the least scary super heavies).
In all the games I've played, this has never been the case. Baneblades were always far too fragile for their points, and ridiculously easy to kill. More often than not, if I lost first turn, I never got to use mine at all, because it evaporated in the first shooting phase. If not that, then someone would bring down Terminators or Fire Dragons nearby and reduce it to ash.
I never understood why anyone would not put their SHVs in reserve for Apoc games. Keeps them able to roll on and fire at full effectiveness for at least one turn, without being smashed off the table before you even get to use it.
2013/07/08 15:53:21
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think the problem is that people don't bring enough super heavies to a fight. If you play an Apocalypse game with only one Baneblade, then of course the Baneblade will dominate and will seem overpowered in comparison to codex units (and, in my opinion, the Baneblade is one of the least scary super heavies).
In all the games I've played, this has never been the case. Baneblades were always far too fragile for their points, and ridiculously easy to kill. More often than not, if I lost first turn, I never got to use mine at all, because it evaporated in the first shooting phase. If not that, then someone would bring down Terminators or Fire Dragons nearby and reduce it to ash.
I never understood why anyone would not put their SHVs in reserve for Apoc games. Keeps them able to roll on and fire at full effectiveness for at least one turn, without being smashed off the table before you even get to use it.
Tank based superheavies are usually longer than 6", if they come onto the board edge they have to follow the rules on p124, as they've moved more than 6" which is their maximum move they are unable to shoot the turn they come on if you keep them in reserve which is why people don't tend to keep baneblades etc in reserve at least. Walkers and faster superheavies though are definitely best kept off of the board for the most part.
2013/07/08 16:05:54
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Lieutenant wrote:
An online friend who owns a shop received the new stuff yesterday, he says crew shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed and immobilised are ignored by super-heavies, and an explode result only reduces D3 hull points. Gargantuant creatures all have feel no pain now too.
Engrimm wrote:Eldar Phantom Titan is in the book, holo fields changed again: Before making an armour penetration roll or rolling on the Destroyer damage table (yes there's a table to roll on for destroyer weapons, good news for some bad for others)
You roll a D6, if the titan moved the weapon will hit on a 4+ and proceed to armour penetration, if it didnt move it's on a 3+. Points cost the same, other different thing is the aa launcher which is now a S7 AP3 heavy 4, skyfire, interceptor. 24HP, same as before.
Great Company: stubborn for all.
All models in the formation re-roll their charge moves and re-roll to hit rolls on overwatch.
x1 per game start of assault phase all within 18" of the wolf lord/Ragnar gain furious charge and fleet.
No points for titan weapons, same as before, no limit on D weapons, guess this is left up to the players.
5 runepristes is the same as 5 libarians, called Librarius: They're a psychic choir formation (see the blog post from Loken for more info) and get a choir power. Warp charge 4, 24", S, Ap1, Heavy 1, large blast, Vortex. Vortex doesnt destroy everything like it used to, it's a normal D weapon but the blast stays on the table and scatters 2D6 each turn, on a double it disappears. In the case of this power though when it dispappears the game will start using the Seismic explosion rules as the vortex buries itself into the plant's surface.
Then there's Brethren of the Great wolf, which contains logan, njal, ulrik, arjac, bjorn and 1 wolf guard pack. It's a high command formation, wolf guard needs to have the banner of the great wolf which within 24" all have Furios charge. Formation has fear and all space wolves on the table have stubborn. Then all characters in the formation can all do the finest hour/sons of primarch buff not just one, but all at the same turn so it's a mega strong unit for that turn.
Wolfpack flanking force, wolflord on wolf/canis wolfborn, 2+ thunderwolf units, 5+ fenrisian wolve packs. Acute senses, hit and run, outflank, rage and can charge in the turn they arrive from reserves.
Can you tell us more about the Lord Castellan's Supreme Command.
Formations of conventional marines are available for other marine codexes?
Yes they are available for the others although some like the scout company wouldnt be available for the grey knights obviously.
Lord castellan creed includes him, kell, a company command squad and an Imperial bastion. When his unit is in the bastion he can issue orders to units anywhere on the table. The master of ordnance can make D3+1 artillery bombardments instead of 1. The formation is a high command formation, so you receive 1 extra strategic asset normally in the break, in Creed's case though you receive 2 assets.
Lord of the Black Crusade is Abaddon and Kharn, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus or lords with mark of khorne instead of Kharn etc. High Command Formation. They can all use the finest hour/sons of primarch at the same turn.
The planet killer: once per game you can have Abaddon's flagship start bombarding so from now on you start using the Magma Storm Unnatural Disaster table. You are the master of disaster as long as abaddon is alive. Basically there's a table you roll on and it affects everybody, but if you're the master of disaster you're the one that begins applying the results. so if you get a result to do D3 blasts and you roll a 3, the master of disaster places the 1st one, then your opponent, then the master, so yoou have that advantage when you roll an odd number.
Legionnaire Warband: When in close cobat with any loyal space marine they re-roll to hit every round of combat. And if they're within 12" of loyal space marines they get fearless. That's the only rule.
Lost and the Damned: 1 Dark Apostle, 6+ chaos cultist units. Gain inflitrate. After each break you can return a single unit of cultists. All cultists in the formation have feel no pain and furious charge.
Black templars have 2 formations in Warzone armageddon, one's for land raider crusaders and the other for a company style.
Dark Eldar formations are incredibly great in my opinion. There's 5 of them. I'll detail two of them:
Ravager Titan Hunters: Armoured spearhead formation. Any ravager within 6" of the command vehicle (including the command vehicle) gets shrouded. The command vehicle has a shadow ray weapon in addition to the normal stuff. You shoot it before you shoot the rest of the dark lances. If it hits then any subsequesnt hits by any ravager in the formation will ignore the effect of Void shield, power fields AND eldar titan holo-fields. Range for the shadow ray is 36".
Dark Olympiad. 1 succubus or lelith, 0+ hekatrix bloodbrides, 2+ wyches units, 1+ hellions, 0+ beastmasters, 1+ reavers. The beastmasters and the beast gain the efffects of combat drugs. With this formation you roll twice on the combat drugs table and apply BOTH. if you have duke sliscus you roll 3 dice and choose 2. Whenever anything from this formation gets a pain token you can give a free extra pain token to anything within 24".
And what exactly do a Sons of Grimaldus formation?
This is the company style formation I mentioned. They all get feel no pain, all dword brethren gain fearless and hatred(orks). When charging any unit from codexrks they gain furious charge. This formation is from Warzone :Armageddon so that's why it's themed against the orcs.
Allies: all armies on the same side are treated as Allies. Armies from the same codex but commanded by different players are considered battlebrothers. Armies that according to the allies matrix ally are "come the apocalypse" count each other as desperate allies. It doesnt say that you HAVE to use the allies matrix in fact it says "alternatively" for when you cant decide which players are put in which team.
Thunderhawk costs 215 points less, but to get the turbo laser it's 90 points. AV is 12 12 10 (-2 from the rear) and Hull points is 9 only (would have been 12 normally). Has power of the machine spirit.
Tigershark isnt in the book, as you said it's just been updated in IA3-2nd so there's no units in the book other than formations for Tau.
The riptide wing contains 3+ riptides. Any riptide that shoots on a unit that another riptide has already shot at gets +1BS. Each Riptide within 6" of another riptide can re-roll Nova reactor tests.
Hierophant is 250 points cheaper. Bio-cannon is assault 6, and he also has a 6+ inv save.
here's some formations
vanguard infestation: 3+ genestealer broods, 3+ lictors (can be deathleaper). On the turn they arrive from reserve all enemy units within 36" use their lowest LD. All unit are deployed like the lictor's Chameleonic skin, even the genestealers
Living fortress: 2 hive tyrants (can be swarmlord), 3 tyrant guard, 3 hive guard. Feel no pain for all. Any tyranids within synapse range of a hive tyrant from this formation has the preferred enemy and counter attack rules.
If they're attacked by a shooting attack they can form a Fortress of Chitin. They get shrouded and add +! to there armour saves but the formation moves as if iin difficult terrain next turn. Btw this is a hig command formation, so extra asset
Biggy: No force organization chart, in fact something which I forgot to mention, ALL units are scoring, even HQ everything.
What is the book's definition of a "break"?
Exactly as it sounds, it's a lunch break etc, in their example there were 2 breaks, so scoring is done 1 startegic victory point per objective 1st break, 2 points for the 2nd break, and 3 points at the end.
Found it a bit weird that they're using these "breaks", me and my regular opponent dont really have breaks, so we're going to try out putting the "break" at the end of turn 2 and turn 4 with the game finishing on turn 5 or 6.
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2013/07/08 16:06:27
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think the problem is that people don't bring enough super heavies to a fight. If you play an Apocalypse game with only one Baneblade, then of course the Baneblade will dominate and will seem overpowered in comparison to codex units (and, in my opinion, the Baneblade is one of the least scary super heavies).
In all the games I've played, this has never been the case. Baneblades were always far too fragile for their points, and ridiculously easy to kill. More often than not, if I lost first turn, I never got to use mine at all, because it evaporated in the first shooting phase. If not that, then someone would bring down Terminators or Fire Dragons nearby and reduce it to ash.
I never understood why anyone would not put their SHVs in reserve for Apoc games. Keeps them able to roll on and fire at full effectiveness for at least one turn, without being smashed off the table before you even get to use it.
Tank based superheavies are usually longer than 6", if they come onto the board edge they have to follow the rules on p124, as they've moved more than 6" which is their maximum move they are unable to shoot the turn they come on if you keep them in reserve which is why people don't tend to keep baneblades etc in reserve at least. Walkers and faster superheavies though are definitely best kept off of the board for the most part.
Well that is just stupid. Handicapping a vehicle like that just because it is longer than 6" is just dumb. Should be able to place a big tank on the board at the board edge and count as a regular move.
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
= Epic First Post.
2013/07/08 16:06:53
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
High Commands: Models in this are treated as 1 unit, examples of this is the phoenix court of khaine where you have the avatar and the 6 phoenix lords in 1 unit, or masters of the chapter where you can have 1 chapter master, 0-1 honour guard, 4-10 captain all in 1 unit (and they cant leave even if they're independent characters). Once per game you also can get another strategic asset per high command. They can also order an all-out attack, which makes a single unit triple it's movement but cannot shoot or tun, but can assault.
"Hello, this is An'ggrath the Unbound. Watch him move 72" and assault in one turn. Blood for the Blood God."
EDIT: Two formations for Templars and one is wasted on turning Crusaders into ghetto-Death Company? Meh
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/08 16:13:55
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/07/08 16:27:19
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
High Commands: Models in this are treated as 1 unit, examples of this is the phoenix court of khaine where you have the avatar and the 6 phoenix lords in 1 unit, or masters of the chapter where you can have 1 chapter master, 0-1 honour guard, 4-10 captain all in 1 unit (and they cant leave even if they're independent characters). Once per game you also can get another strategic asset per high command. They can also order an all-out attack, which makes a single unit triple it's movement but cannot shoot or tun, but can assault.
"Hello, this is An'ggrath the Unbound. Watch him move 72" and assault in one turn. Blood for the Blood God."
That's so wrong.
So would the old-style formations be invalidated? I had a vortex missile launcher I made out of a Saturn V kit and a Death Strike Missile Launcher Kit. I'd be very sad if it was no longer a vortex missile launcher.
2013/07/08 16:37:54
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
High Commands: Models in this are treated as 1 unit, examples of this is the phoenix court of khaine where you have the avatar and the 6 phoenix lords in 1 unit, or masters of the chapter where you can have 1 chapter master, 0-1 honour guard, 4-10 captain all in 1 unit (and they cant leave even if they're independent characters). Once per game you also can get another strategic asset per high command. They can also order an all-out attack, which makes a single unit triple it's movement but cannot shoot or tun, but can assault.
"Hello, this is An'ggrath the Unbound. Watch him move 72" and assault in one turn. Blood for the Blood God."
That's so wrong.
So would the old-style formations be invalidated? I had a vortex missile launcher I made out of a Saturn V kit and a Death Strike Missile Launcher Kit. I'd be very sad if it was no longer a vortex missile launcher.
I would not be surprised if they were all invalidated. Some probably will not, but some may be. With Games-Workshop's business strategy of "MAKE EVERYTHING COST MORE" it is entirely likely that they'd make you buy a whole bunch of new stuff because they can.
2013/07/08 16:39:39
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
AlmightyWalrus wrote: House rule old stuff in. Apocalypse isn't supposed to be played without house rules anyway.
This. There is a reason I don't show up to random Apoc games. I'd rather plan something out with friends, make house rules to make it go smooth, and then beat the heck out of each other using lots of cool painted toys
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2013/07/08 16:51:33
Subject: Re:July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
AlmightyWalrus wrote: House rule old stuff in. Apocalypse isn't supposed to be played without house rules anyway.
We dont know that that is still true. Everything I have read seems to indicate that the "organized chaos" of the previous Apoc design concept has been thrown out the window in favor of something more structured.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2013/07/08 16:59:25
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
The Special rule is" the Amount of cheese is too damn High!!", When a player aligne 3 Wraithknights, its adversaries have the right and the duty to smack him in the jimmies with the said models, each ennemy player can have 2D6 smacks, not more.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: House rule old stuff in. Apocalypse isn't supposed to be played without house rules anyway.
This. There is a reason I don't show up to random Apoc games. I'd rather plan something out with friends, make house rules to make it go smooth, and then beat the heck out of each other using lots of cool painted toys
I also don't understand why people play Apoc in a non-structured sense. I've never seen a pickup game that wasn't like trying to swallow glass.
These rules don't see a lot that I want to incorporate but I'll reserve judgement for when I read the full text.
Keeper of the DomBox
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2013/07/08 17:34:49
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Oh, laugh it up now. But one day, it will be our turn*...
* The above statement is, in all likelihood, false; the desperate, ailing hope of all Sisters players. It's likely the only reason SoB haven't been Squatted is the design studio can't think of a way to get a 'Nid Hive Fleet onto Holy Terra.
2013/07/08 18:18:40
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Oh, laugh it up now. But one day, it will be our turn*...
* The above statement is, in all likelihood, false; the desperate, ailing hope of all Sisters players. It's likely the only reason SoB haven't been Squatted is the design studio can't think of a way to get a 'Nid Hive Fleet onto Holy Terra.
Actually, they're just waiting for the next Grey Knight's codex to be released to write in that all the Sisters of Battle walked into a giant rendering vat so they could produce holy grease for the joints of the Grey Knights armor. You know it's coming...
2013/07/08 18:31:41
Subject: July White Dwarf New Apocalypse Edition rumour /pics added pg 34, 41& 42
Oh, laugh it up now. But one day, it will be our turn*...
* The above statement is, in all likelihood, false; the desperate, ailing hope of all Sisters players. It's likely the only reason SoB haven't been Squatted is the design studio can't think of a way to get a 'Nid Hive Fleet onto Holy Terra.
Actually, they're just waiting for the next Grey Knight's codex to be released to write in that all the Sisters of Battle walked into a giant rendering vat so they could produce holy grease for the joints of the Grey Knights armor. You know it's coming...
Don't give them ideas!
I assume, though, that this means there aren't any Apocalypse Formations for Sisters of Battle in the new edition. Doubly irksome, since even the 6th Ed BRB recognises they were present at Armageddon...
5000 points (Blue rods are better than green!)
5000 points (Black Legion & Pre-heresy Sons of Horus) 
, Ap1, Heavy 1, large blast, Vortex. Vortex doesnt destroy everything like it used to, it's a normal D weapon but the blast stays on the table and scatters 
rks they gain furious charge. This formation is from Warzone :Armageddon so that's why it's themed against the orcs.
Renegades - 
