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Userarm wrote:
Personally i think invul saves are still allowed against D weapons as in the latest 6th addition FAQ/Errata they do specifically state you can always take invul saves regardless even if it says 'no saves of any kind allowed' which it does, since this is an expansion to 40k we still use those rules unless they specifically tell us not too.

No, it says you can always take an invulnerable save even if it says no armor saves are allowed. There's nothing that suggests that you can still take an invulnerable save even if no saves of any kind are allowed (for example, against a Riptide's self-inflicted wounds).

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse?

Speaking of Khorne getting boned (the only bone he likes is the skull after all), I have not seen a thing about either the Brass Scorpion or the Tower Of Skulls for this new 2nd Edition Apocalypse. Those were two popular conversions for Apocalypse, especially the Brass Scorpion. It would be most annoying to for their to be no datasheets for those in the new Apocalypse.

I built three Brass Scorpions for myself, gave clinics on how to do it, had a builders' guide on the US GW website for the first six months of 2008 and have even built some for other people. There are a lot of expensive Brass Scorpion conversions out there that are going to be collecting dust if they have no datasheet now.

Use the old datasheet.

^^^^^^ This I will be using the old datasheets until if\when GW decides to update them.

Just because every data sheet isn't in the new book, doesn't mean they are not still usable. Far from it.

Nurgle Plague Tower and all of the Forge World Daemon Lords immediately come to mind.

Hey everyone, just wondering, I intend to buy the new apoc book this saturday and I own the Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd edition book, those 2 books combined I have all the rule sets I need? Because I noticed that for example some of the FW Daemon Lords have some special rules that are not in the Imperial Armor book. Would I be required to ALSO getting an old Apocalypse rulebook, or would it be likely that those special rules reappear in the new apoc book?

Somehow I doubt the Brass Scorpion will be left out, seeing as how FW has an official model of it out now.

aliusexalio wrote:
Hey everyone, just wondering, I intend to buy the new apoc book this saturday and I own the Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd edition book, those 2 books combined I have all the rule sets I need? Because I noticed that for example some of the FW Daemon Lords have some special rules that are not in the Imperial Armor book. Would I be required to ALSO getting an old Apocalypse rulebook, or would it be likely that those special rules reappear in the new apoc book?

We have no idea. FW will be releasing a new IA Apocalypse book soon, but beyond that we have no idea what units will be getting new rules (or even included at all).

Another thing I'm noticing when it comes to the list of datasheets that are supposedly in this book, they are not encouraging converting. After all, that's what made things like the Tower Of Skulls and Brass Scorpion fun, you had to come up with a way to build them yourself from other kits. Same for Plague Tower Of Nurgle, Plaguereaper, etc.

It seems that all the new datasheets in the new Apocalypse book are just sheets for stock models, there aren't really sheets for converted builds. There's no encouragement therefore to go crazy kit bashing. It wasn't necessary before for people not up to it as there were plenty of datasheets for stock models, but there were also sheets for those of us nutty hobbyists who like to make wild conversions. It doesn't appear there's any encouragement via datasheets to do that now.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Another thing I'm noticing when it comes to the list of datasheets that are supposedly in this book, they are not encouraging converting. After all, that's what made things like the Tower Of Skulls and Brass Scorpion fun, you had to come up with a way to build them yourself from other kits. Same for Plague Tower Of Nurgle, Plaguereaper, etc.

It seems that all the new datasheets in the new Apocalypse book are just sheets for stock models, there aren't really sheets for converted builds. There's no encouragement therefore to go crazy kit bashing. It wasn't necessary before for people not up to it as there were plenty of datasheets for stock models, but there were also sheets for those of us nutty hobbyists who like to make wild conversions. It doesn't appear there's any encouragement via datasheets to do that now.

Seems like another "no new rules with an accompanying model" thing to me.

Peregrine thanks for clarifying that, still may have to house rule it in otherwise with my new Vault and Trancendent C'tan running around my cousins may be tabled too quickly and its not much fun when that happens.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
It seems that all the new datasheets in the new Apocalypse book are just sheets for stock models, there aren't really sheets for converted builds. There's no encouragement therefore to go crazy kit bashing. It wasn't necessary before for people not up to it as there were plenty of datasheets for stock models, but there were also sheets for those of us nutty hobbyists who like to make wild conversions. It doesn't appear there's any encouragement via datasheets to do that now.

Well yeah.. ofcourse they do that.
Could you imagine how pissed off SoB-players would be if they don't bother making formations for them when they DO make rules for stuff they don't even have models of?

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Speaking of Khorne getting boned (the only bone he likes is the skull after all), I have not seen a thing about either the Brass Scorpion or the Tower Of Skulls for this new 2nd Edition Apocalypse.

Do GW sell kits for either?

Exactly. So they won't get rules. We'll get to keep the Greater Brass Scorp, 'cause FW still makes that.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Another thing I'm noticing when it comes to the list of datasheets that are supposedly in this book, they are not encouraging converting. After all, that's what made things like the Tower Of Skulls and Brass Scorpion fun, you had to come up with a way to build them yourself from other kits. Same for Plague Tower Of Nurgle, Plaguereaper, etc.

The Chapterhouse lawsuit has made them gunshy. They're only releasing rules for models they have in production, mostly to avoid the issue of someone else, like Chapterhouse, beating them to a release.

However, it's perfect fodder for another 'vehicle design rules' type supplement. I'd adore that.

If they've already got rules I highly doubt they'd drop them from the book. GW, for all their faults, very rarely indeed actually drops units/datasheets entirely from the game. I would imagine they have a guide for converting old datasheets for use in the new edition.

Besides, it's Apocalypse. The whole point is to come up with your own crazy formations and super-heavies. Just convert the old datasheets, or come up with a brand new one.

Kangodo wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
What good is 3000 points of Guard infantry?

You missed the part where you and your friends are going to have an awesome time with 3k points of infantry!
Apocalypse isn't about you spending money to win games, it's about you and your friends spending money to have a great time.

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

While I agree with your point of view, the fact of the matter is I never played a game of apocalypse where 3000 points of guard infantry (or most other factions infantry) really made any sort of difference whatsoever (unless they were heavy weapon teams, etc.). Really what it boils down to is that they are way outclassed power-wise by the "big ticket" items that everyone fields, and are so easy to remove from the table en-masse that there only real purpose is to slow the game down. We ran a couple apoc games in my area that were vehicles only and the games not only moved far faster but were far more enjoyable for everyone (most people don't realize how much of a downer it is to remove 100+ infantry minis from the table in one phase, right after you just finished setting them up).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

Surprisingly Tzeentch got some love with the Chaos Altar, 2++ commanders with 3++ terminators/Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

Not to mention the Mastery Level 5 Sons of the Primarch rule. (With sorcerer) or level 2 chaos lord.

Yeah that Finest Hour is very nice! You could get a Level 6 Ahriman which is pretty sweet.

Also I didn't notice the Chaos Altar, though I assume it gives your dudes +1 to their invulnerable save! That's especially good for Tzeentchian daemons too.

That feel when even the horus heresy world eaters got by far the worst legion rules...

I think the Chaos altar is CSM specific.

But if you want some good Daemon Stuff, there's a thing for CSM that restores D3 Daemon Units for free (Giving them actual synergy between the two, YOU SEE THAT KELLY, THESE PEOPLE KNOW CHAOS)

Also, that badass Daemon Shell.

They must've thought "Hmm, we should make a powerful artifact..Hmm, lets enchant a bolter shell, make it ****ing awesome, and can be fired from a bolt pistol and do incredible S damage with a massive blast"

The Daemon shell is old news, it was in Apoc Reload (I know this because I once watched a friend join Tigurius to a squad of Chaos Marines with a Lord w/ Daemon Shell, Tigurius then used that deep strike movement power thing and teleported inside of a Reaver Titans Void Shields, the Lord fired the Daemon Shell and after a few lucky rolls was down all its weapon systems and clinging to life on one hull point).

Personally i think invul saves are still allowed against D weapons as in the latest 6th addition FAQ/Errata they do specifically state you can always take invul saves regardless even if it says 'no saves of any kind allowed' which it does in this case, since this is an expansion to 40k we still use those rules unless they specifically tell us not too.

...unless the rules for the weapon specifically state no invulnerable saves are allowed. It doesn't matter what the Errata/FAQ says anyway, as specific rules trump general rules, and in this case its pretty clear what the design intent was.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
If they've already got rules I highly doubt they'd drop them from the book. GW, for all their faults, very rarely indeed actually drops units/datasheets entirely from the game. I would imagine they have a guide for converting old datasheets for use in the new edition.

Besides, it's Apocalypse. The whole point is to come up with your own crazy formations and super-heavies. Just convert the old datasheets, or come up with a brand new one.

That was the OLD apocalypse. This is the new apocalypse, this apocalypse is much more structured then the previous one is, that should be very easily apparent. This is more about large games then it is about crazy scenarios.

As for the Brass Scorpion, remember that there is a FW datasheet for it, so no big loss. ALSO, keep in mind that with the "Warzone" release system, you'll likely have the opportunity to give GW an additional $50 in exchange for just such a datasheet (and others!)

Could be worse. It could be the Night Lord ability that most armies in the game flat out ignore.

The fear is worthless, but it does force psychic test re-rolls with it's "Reroll all successful leadership tests" bubble, so the leadership thing does have some use.

I'm expecting a Chaos "Warzone" supplement to come out with all the old things, just as the Armageddon one has the Titan rules. Those things may not directly have models but they did a good job of selling otherwise disinterested people the new shiny Baneblade kits.

Also, that Infinite Phalanx for Necrons looks a little OTT. Fearless (so always allowed RP unless wiped or D weaponed) plus relentless (because why not) plus it all counts as a blob unit? Mental. That's BEFORE the buffs to RP...

Eyjio wrote:
Also, that Infinite Phalanx for Necrons looks a little OTT. Fearless (so always allowed RP unless wiped or D weaponed) plus relentless (because why not) plus it all counts as a blob unit? Mental. That's BEFORE the buffs to RP...

With the added downside of spending around 2k points on Necron Warriors
It's quite fluffy and I like it, there is nothing I would fear more in RL than facing 150 killer robots!

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love the idea and I don't think it's broken at all as they'll all need to fire at the same thing. Just imagine it though: 180 Warriors and Zahndrekh joining them with a res orb. With tank hunters, they do 36 hull points in a turn on average. Sure it's redundant but you can still march up in a massive line to wall off anything else you've taken - they are fearless after all, so not afraid of assault. If the enemy can't whittle them down past 150, they'd pass RP on a 2+. Makes Necron infantry worth taking, which they otherwise wouldn't be IMO. Just seems a little crazy they all become one unit!

Eyjio wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love the idea and I don't think it's broken at all as they'll all need to fire at the same thing. Just imagine it though: 180 Warriors and Zahndrekh joining them with a res orb. With tank hunters, they do 36 hull points in a turn on average. Sure it's redundant but you can still march up in a massive line to wall off anything else you've taken - they are fearless after all, so not afraid of assault. If the enemy can't whittle them down past 150, they'd pass RP on a 2+. Makes Necron infantry worth taking, which they otherwise wouldn't be IMO. Just seems a little crazy they all become one unit!

Necron blob, meet Furioso Dreadnought. Just need some way to block the overwatch....

Assault with 2 of em. They'll pop one and the other gets in to destroy the entire unit in one assault phase.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love the idea and I don't think it's broken at all as they'll all need to fire at the same thing. Just imagine it though: 180 Warriors and Zahndrekh joining them with a res orb. With tank hunters, they do 36 hull points in a turn on average. Sure it's redundant but you can still march up in a massive line to wall off anything else you've taken - they are fearless after all, so not afraid of assault. If the enemy can't whittle them down past 150, they'd pass RP on a 2+. Makes Necron infantry worth taking, which they otherwise wouldn't be IMO. Just seems a little crazy they all become one unit!

Necron blob, meet Furioso Dreadnought. Just need some way to block the overwatch....

Easy. Charge them with 2 Furiso Dreadnoughts. They can only shoot one

Ninja'd by rigeld2

That's why you should add at least 5 Lords!

Extra fun: Put 150+ Warriors on the Tomb Citadel with a Res Orb.
You have RP2+ and you can reroll the 1's.

Nevermind, the Orb doesn't lower the number you need.. It tells us they pass the test on a 4+

But still: 3+ RP with rerolls on the 1.
If 36 Warriors die, you will have 6 who stay dead and 2 who fail the reroll.
So 28 out of 36 get back up!

I must have missed it. Where are you seeing the rules for the Infinite Phalanx?

It's a secret GW might sue them!

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
I must have missed it. Where are you seeing the rules for the Infinite Phalanx?

I think it was earlier in the thread. It was a leaked formation screenshot.

I did some sleuthing and found the info here:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/apocalypse-qna-happening-now.html

Here's the relevant info for us Necron players:

Tesseract vault - 14AV all around. Points cost is 315 but can double up delending on what powers you choose (up to 2). One of them is a 48" S8 AP3 Heavy 6D6 attack, another is a hellstorm template S: D ap1.

Obelisk gravity pulse: all flyers or skimmer within 24" suffer a S8 Ap4 on the side armour. Also has four weapons (the tesla spheres at the corners)

Infinite Phalanx: They all get fearless and relentless. They all form a single unit. If its more than 100 necrons they gain fear. If theres 100 models they pass reanimation on 4+, if 150 on 3+

The War Council of Mandragora: It's a bit complicated, there 6 conditions to be met, you roll 3 dice to see which ones you need to achieve, each one that you do grants you a strategic asset but you have to do them in the order rolled. If you complete all 3 you get D3 victory points so it's a nice formation.

The Baleful Necroplis: consists of 8 monoliths and 1 tesseract vault. The vault will have an extra S: D weapon and each monolith close to it can increase it's range. Any monolith close to the vault also gets it will not die and 6+ inv and then increases upo to 4+ inv depending on how many monoliths are close.

All spelling and grammar mistakes are courtesy of the guy on Faet212.

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
I must have missed it. Where are you seeing the rules for the Infinite Phalanx?

I was using this: http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/apocalypse-qna-happening-now.html

I'll quote my question and the answer I got here:

Q: What does the infinite phalanx do for Necrons?

A: They all get fearless and relentless. They all form a single unit. If its more than 100 necrons they gain fear. If theres 100 models they pass reanimation on 4+, if 150 on 3+

Ok I am surprised not many have seen this in the Dakka Gallery.

Someone do this... immediately:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/512181-Possible%20conversion%3F.html

We have seen it actually. Many times.

fidel wrote:
Ok I am surprised not many have seen this in the Dakka Gallery.

Someone do this... immediately:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/512181-Possible%20conversion%3F.html

It's in this thread. Perhaps read it?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
We have seen it actually. Many times.

It was also on the front page of BOLS the other day.