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 tetrisphreak wrote:

Is it wrong to expect players to communicate with one another and say "hey, man, don't bring those busted titans to our game today." ?

Honestly, it kinda is. That's pretty much saying "You know that expensive model you spent all that work putting together and maybe painting that you can only use when we play Apocalypse? You mind not bringing that to the only style of game you can use it in? Thanks."

It's fine for those groups that play Apocalypse monthly, but for the average group that plays it once in a blue moon, it's kinda a crappy thing to do.

Is it crappier than say simply not wanting to play because of said titan? Fun is a two way street I'm afraid.

Now certainly fun can come at the expense of another player's fun, that is the nature of the game, however in a good game it's a back and forth. No one outside of sadists ever enjoyed seeing their little guys getting pie plated out of existence, but hopefully that blow is softened by causing similar destruction to the opponent's little guys. If it's one way all game, not very fun for both sides. I don't see anything wrong with the idea that "I'll play your titan when I get mine done".

It's kinda like forgeworld, you have the entitled camp and the realistic camp. The entitled camp thinks they don't "have to" broach the subject with a prospective opponent (always seemingly forgetting that we all have veto power over who we chose to play). The realistic camp might say "hey, do you mind if we use forgeworld, I just painted up my x model?". I'm firmly in camp reality, being pragmatic is very important to the game in my books. All my regular opponents have their prefferences and so do I. If opponent a doesn't like forgeworld, or titans or what have you, opponent b might have no problem with any of those.

I think it's pretty easy to see why some players with a limited amount of discretionary wargaming funds might take issue with other with more money simply paying to win so to speak. Apoc is at a point now (and arguably has always been) where you may as well call it capitalism, the game. I mean look no further than formations.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Is it crappier than say simply not wanting to play because of said titan? Fun is a two way street I'm afraid.

If a single Titan with a couple D weapons is ruining your fun, I don't think it entirely has to do with the Titan.

No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

Wow, way to read into my comments the completely wrong way.

You're right, it's entirely reasonable to judge a person by whether you allow them to bring their toys or not.


My point was that most people that have problems with Titans and super heavies tend not to actually have problems with the models, but with the actual Apocalypse format. It's not 40K on a larger scale(I can't tell you how many times I've seen people approach it that way), it's an excuse to get together and have fun with your toys, big and small. And I'm NOT saying you can't limit how many big toys are present(I do it with every event I run and most events I've played in do it, too). Hell, I've played plenty of Super-heavy-less Apoc games, they can be fun. And yes, it's a bit skewy if you don't have one and then not PLAN on facing one.

I DO have a problem with people asking them not to bring it based purely on the fact that it happens to have D weapons, which people keep complaining about, but I've never seen a D weapon affect the game as much as they seem to insinuate it does. Then again, I only own two models with D weapons, and I tend to be the one supplying BOTH sides with the Superheavies every time I play(cause I'm a decent human being that way ).

An Imperator, yes, but not D Weapons(I guess if EVERYTHING had one, yeah).

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

I rather think that a decent human being wouldn't cast everyone who differs on that decision as NOT being a decent human being.

So as far as i can see Crablezworth your saying that since i own a Necron Pylon SHV since 2005 which has seen the light of day a massive 3 times in that whole time and my opponents currently do not own a SHV, should i then get the rare opportunity to play an apocalypse game and decide to include this rarely seen model in my army i am not a decent human being, have no common sense and no dignity, am i getting this correct?

Personally the shoe should be on the other foot, for example my Pylon is known to my opponents, they know i will more than likely include it if i get the chance and it should be up to them to come up with tactics/strategies to destroy or impair my SHV and other strong units while i do the same to theirs as this is in my opinion what makes the game fun.

shade1313 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

I rather think that a decent human being wouldn't cast everyone who differs on that decision as NOT being a decent human being.

What I'm saying is even in the instances where a prospective opponent didn't mind me taking a super heavy regardless of their lack of one, I'd feel bad and as such elect not to take one. I wouldn't feel dignified if I took one.

This one is starting to wander far afield.

Any real reason for it to stay open, if it can't stay on topic?

Userarm wrote:
So as far as i can see Crablezworth your saying that since i own a Necron Pylon SHV since 2005 which has seen the light of day a massive 3 times in that whole time and my opponents currently do not own a SHV, should i then get the rare opportunity to play an apocalypse game and decide to include this rarely seen model in my army i am not a decent human being, have no common sense and no dignity, am i getting this correct?.

If they took issue because of their lack of super heavies or d weapons and noted that they would prefer to play without super heavies and you took it anyway out of entitlement then ya I'd say that's a less than decent thing to do. If your opponents don't care either way, then go ahead. I myself wouldn't feel very dignified in that context.

 Alpharius wrote:
This one is starting to wander far afield.

Any real reason for it to stay open, if it can't stay on topic?

As much as I want to say 'the damn fortification rules', it may not be worth it. :(

Userarm wrote:


Personally the shoe should be on the other foot, for example my Pylon is known to my opponents, they know i will more than likely include it if i get the chance and it should be up to them to come up with tactics/strategies to destroy or impair my SHV and other strong units while i do the same to theirs as this is in my opinion what makes the game fun.

If they said "hey can you not bring that big pylon thing, it was a fun spunge last time" Would you simply say "it's legal, I'm taking it" or would there be a longer conversation about balance and what kind of game everyone is looking to have?

 Crablezworth wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

I rather think that a decent human being wouldn't cast everyone who differs on that decision as NOT being a decent human being.

What I'm saying is even in the instances where a prospective opponent didn't mind me taking a super heavy regardless of their lack of one, I'd feel bad and as such elect not to take one. I wouldn't feel dignified if I took one.

Offer to supply them with one(or three!). They're fun to use. I own 8 of the things across various armies mostly to loan them out.

And of course, I have no problem NOT bringing one if no one else has or wants to use one, I just didn't like tetris' reasoning for asking it to not be brought.

I can understand where tetris's sentiment comes from, in the case of say a warhaound, 4 d weapons has never seemed to make much sense for the points being spent. If both sides have one, it seems like less of an issue but if only one person in a gaming group hase one, I can fully understand the "fun spunge" effect it can have on games.

Has there been any word on the regular 40k Fortification rules?

demontalons wrote:
Has there been any word on the regular 40k Fortification rules?

Nothing us indecent human beings have heard about. Still waiting.

Our GW was given a choice of unit to build/paint for store use, the manager had a vote and we selected the Aquila Strongpoint over the Khornethingy and the Obelisk. I'm sure that other stores were afforded the same, and if 40k rules are included in the box for the AS, they'll be turning up shortly from somewhere.

Hmm, well only 2 days to go and all will be verified truly, but I quite like the D rules, you have a 1 in 6 chance of not dying as a single model, or 1 in 6 of only a pen hit. Also the odds are that it may only take 2 wounds any model, but it could be 4, and it will require luck to be truly deadly after all, you still need to roll to hit/scatter, and with my luck in the game, I'll never, ever, ever roll a 6 on either D table.

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
This one is starting to wander far afield.

Any real reason for it to stay open, if it can't stay on topic?

As much as I want to say 'the damn fortification rules', it may not be worth it. :(

Yeah what about those rules? Did i miss anything or we still have no clue about their points cost etc. ?

demontalons wrote:
Has there been any word on the regular 40k Fortification rules?

On some websites I have seen people unpacking the Vault and Mr Evil-Tracks, so we should probably see those rules within the next 12 hours.

Don't think I'll be bothering with the book, I have no plans to buy a superheavy and it looks like games that just use tons of regular Codex units have the potential to go badly wrong if your opponent has D-weapons (in other words it's just too much of an investment!).

 Fezman wrote:
Don't think I'll be bothering with the book, I have no plans to buy a superheavy and it looks like games that just use tons of regular Codex units have the potential to go badly wrong if your opponent has D-weapons (in other words it's just too much of an investment!).

You can get D weapons from some formations.

C:SM has Predator legion

CSM has obliterator cult.

DE: doesn't have them, but can pierce void shields with its ravager formation.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Don't think I'll be bothering with the book, I have no plans to buy a superheavy and it looks like games that just use tons of regular Codex units have the potential to go badly wrong if your opponent has D-weapons (in other words it's just too much of an investment!).

You can get D weapons from some formations.

C:SM has Predator legion

CSM has obliterator cult.

DE: doesn't have them, but can pierce void shields with its ravager formation.

One of the eldar strategic assets is a destroyer weapon, as is the vortex grenade.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Is it wrong to expect players to communicate with one another and say "hey, man, don't bring those busted titans to our game today." ?

Honestly, it kinda is. That's pretty much saying "You know that expensive model you spent all that work putting together and maybe painting that you can only use when we play Apocalypse? You mind not bringing that to the only style of game you can use it in? Thanks."

It's fine for those groups that play Apocalypse monthly, but for the average group that plays it once in a blue moon, it's kinda a crappy thing to do.

In my experience, when a group gets together, and the Titan kicks the crap out of the other side all by itself, they are no other games played. Both sides need to have fun, and regardless that someone tossed FW money, isn't a valid reason for given up a day just so your buddy can play with an expensive toy. (And I personally own quite a few expensive toys that I don't expect to see the table much, and certainly not altogether.

A group that communicates and plans their games will have more games, and the Titans get to play in more games.

Complaining about Titans when you have none just shows a lack of thought - it's far, far easier to kill a Titan than you think. For example, Space Marines can do it easily with a drop pod full of Sternguard with combi meltas. Tyranids can do it with a Mycetic Spore or two full of Zoanthropes.

Drop a supremely powerful anti tank unit inside its void shields and watch your opponent cry when his $700 Reaver explodes, taking half of his army with it. Some armies can even do it with conventional firepower, though admittedly it'll take a lot of pounding.

Telling someone who has dropped the cheese on a Titan that they can't bring their fantastic centerpeice model to your (very already unbalanced) Apocalypse game smacks more of jealousy than fear of how powerful it is. It only becomes a massive problem when someone turns up with three Reavers packing all D strength weapons, which is the point where you would want to start putting up some limits.

Bringing it slightly back on topic, for the UK webstore at least the targeting templates are now sold out, I'll be very interested to see what happens next with them, surely they must be planning another release of them if only in a different colour or format...

 mikhaila wrote:
Both sides need to have fun, and regardless that someone tossed FW money, isn't a valid reason for given up a day just so your buddy can play with an expensive toy.

Of course let's be honest here, most titans are "scratchbuilt" proxies full of D-weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Both sides need to have fun, and regardless that someone tossed FW money, isn't a valid reason for given up a day just so your buddy can play with an expensive toy.

Of course let's be honest here, most titans are "scratchbuilt" proxies full of D-weapons.

I remember my frist Apocalypse game. A friend brought his 3000pts of Eldar and 2000pts of Space Marines. My brother brought his Guard backed up by 5 papercraft Baneblade variants.

I've told him I'm not playing him in Apoc if he keeps that up.

Well pre-orders have shipped. I hope that some day in the near future GW realises that the best way to have people play Apoc is to release things on Fridays, that way people can use them that weekend, rather than sending them out Friday afternoon, so we don't get them 'til the following Monday.

But no, the Internet is evil and unscrupulous people would put pictures up on the Internet!

Just received my preorder - I got the cards, the template set and the vortex grenade template (sorry, no rulebook - I'm going digital).

The templates are made of a very different plastic to the old green templates. They're much more flexible and much lighter - I'm not sure if this is a positive or not, because they feel cheaper. Since they're all clip-together templates, having it like this means that parts are less likely to snap, though.

That big template is huge. Where the 5" template is often known as the "pie plate", and the old 10" apoc template was the "dinner plate"...I like to call this 15" template the Sombrero.

Vortex template is pretty much as expected. Same as before, just with a different design. Looks very cool.

Cards are done on a very dark grey colour, with lighter grey writing and another grey logo behind the writing, so it can be a little bit of a strain to read.

 -Loki- wrote:

Drop a supremely powerful anti tank unit inside its void shields and watch your opponent cry when his $700 Reaver explodes, taking half of his army with it. Some armies can even do it with conventional firepower, though admittedly it'll take a lot of pounding.

Telling someone who has dropped the cheese on a Titan that they can't bring their fantastic centerpeice model to your (very already unbalanced) Apocalypse game smacks more of jealousy than fear of how powerful it is. It only becomes a massive problem when someone turns up with three Reavers packing all D strength weapons, which is the point where you would want to start putting up some limits.

The same issue applies to the smaller end of the Apoc scale. Say you're playing a 3000-5000pt game with just one superheavy unit per side. Whoever gets first turn unleashes all their D-weapons to kill the other superheavy before it even fires a shot. That lovely centerpiece model not only never gets used, but it's absence makes getting rid of the opponents centerpiece so much harder. The original super unit is now free to clear swathes of everything using the same weapon virtually unopposed, because it's equally effective against anything.

I think the two main mistakes with D-weapons in this edition are:
a) Invulns should be usable against them, even if it's a compromise such as forcing a re-roll of successful saves. This helps elite units (like Termies) a little more of a chance to live and at least gives them at least slightly better odds than Guardsmen or Grotz in the same situation.
b) Blast-based D-weapons are so effective there's little reason to pick alternatives at the same points cost (aside from aesthetics or wanting to be fair). It makes them equally effective against clearing massed-infantry as they are against larger units, unlike weapons such as plasma or lascannon, which have their high strength balanced out by being able to hit fewer targets at a time.
The house rule mentioned earlier in this thread works quite well - only the unit under the centre of the template takes the D-strength hit and everything else is a regular S10 AP1 hit.

Of course it's hard to argue that these house rules are fair when your know your opponent is planning to use a $400 titan, and your own army has next to zero D-weapon options to take or buy.