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 wyomingfox wrote:
Went to my FLGS and saw the rules for the Warhound vs the Heirophant Bio-Titan.

Warhoud is 720 points for 9 HP and 2 Shields (effectively 11 wounds) and is armour 14 in the front (effectively T10). Each turn a shield (AV12) can regenerate on a 5+ (effectively IWND). It also comes with 2 Turbo Lasers for free - 2 Str D AP 2 5" blasts each at BS4 and 96" range.

Bio-Titan comes it at 1000 points and gets 10 wounds, T9, IWND, FNP, Regenerate and a 2+ Armour. It also comes with 2 Bio-Cannons - 6 Str 10 AP 3 shots each at BS 3 and 48" range. My foot print on the Bio-Titan is roughly 10-11" in diameter.

In a match up the cheaper warhound will inflict 13.667 wounds on average in a single shooting phase (at BS4 plus the massive footprint of the Bio-Titan, you don't have to worry about scattering). These bypass its armour saves, cover saves, and FNP.

In return, the Biotitan can strip the 2 shields off the warhound and cause a further 1.83 wounds/HP...assuming that the warhound doesn't have cover save as Bio-Cannons don't bypass cover saves.

A few points/questions...

1) Does the Hierophant get It Will Not Die AND Regenerate? That seems odd.
2) Does the Hierophant still get any of the melee biomorphs from the codex, such as Scything Talons or Lash Whips?

3) Don't forget that the Warhound has different armour facings. Assuming this in unchanged, it'll be effective T9 to the side and T8 on the rear. It is also more vulnerable to lance and melta weapons than a GC.
4) Unless it's changed, Void shields don't work within 12", which is also the range many melta and other AP1 weapons will work at.
5) Explode damage results on the Warhound will result in extra lost HP. This is pretty easy to achieve with AP1/2 weapons. However it is difficult (but not impossible) to inflict ID attacks to get D3 wounds on a Hierophant.
6) The Hierophant enjoys from protection against non-Destroyer weapons thanks to FNP and it's 6++ invuln save.
and finally...
7) Put a Hierophant in melee with a Warhound. See who wins then.

 Peregrine wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
Warhoud is 720 points

Seriously? Someone thought the ridiculously underpriced dual turbolaser Warhound needed to be cheaper?

The Baneblade went up in points...the warhound went down.

I'm hoping these are just mild problems in an otherwise flawless book.

 wyomingfox wrote:
It also comes with 2 Turbo Lasers for free - 2 Str D AP 2 5" blasts each at BS4 and 96" range.

2 shots per arm or 2 shots total? Because that would be a change.

The problem isn't the Warhound, it's the Destroyer Weapons being free and so powerful still. A more balanced approach would be to have say the Warhound be 700 points with a pair of Vulcan Mega bolters- free swap to inferno blastgun, 75 points to plasma blastgun, 150 points for the turbolasers.

 Foda_Bett wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
It also comes with 2 Turbo Lasers for free - 2 Str D AP 2 5" blasts each at BS4 and 96" range.

2 shots per arm or 2 shots total? Because that would be a change.

 xttz wrote:


A few points/questions...

1) Does the Hierophant get It Will Not Die AND Regenerate? That seems odd.

GC in general get IWND and FNP. Hierophant gets regenerate.

2) Does the Hierophant still get any of the melee biomorphs from the codex, such as Scything Talons or Lash Whips?

I recall lashwhips

3) Don't forget that the Warhound has different armour facings. Assuming this in unchanged, it'll be effective T9 to the side and T8 on the rear. It is also more vulnerable to lance and melta weapons than a GC.

Warhound has 96" range guns, so can limmit its exposure to its rear facing. In a mexican standoff, the warhound should be able to park itself in a corner so as to maximize its front facing.

4) Unless it's changed, Void shields don't work within 12", which is also the range many melta and other AP1 weapons will work at.

Changed. IIRC, they don't work in CC. That is the only way you bypass them.

5) Explode damage results on the Warhound will result in extra lost HP. This is pretty easy to achieve with AP1/2 weapons. However it is difficult (but not impossible) to inflict ID attacks to get D3 wounds on a Hierophant.

Our only shooting attack that is AP2/AP1 is Zoes and Bio Plasma on carnies. I guess you could pod a bunch of Zoes down...but still.

6) The Hierophant enjoys from protection against non-Destroyer weapons thanks to FNP and it's 6++ invuln save.
and finally...

Hierophant is more vulnerable to Str 6-7 weapons, ID weapons (causes 1D3 wounds each) and Poison Weapons (I don't recall any special rules that protect it against poison weapons). I don't recall seeing a invulnerable save either.

7) Put a Hierophant in melee with a Warhound. See who wins then

.

I can't see a Hirophant getting in CC with a Warhound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Foda_Bett wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
It also comes with 2 Turbo Lasers for free - 2 Str D AP 2 5" blasts each at BS4 and 96" range.

2 shots per arm or 2 shots total? Because that would be a change.

2 Shots per Gun/Arm (remains unchanged).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
Warhoud is 720 points

Seriously? Someone thought the ridiculously underpriced dual turbolaser Warhound needed to be cheaper?

Meanwhile the Heirophant comes with two - 6 shot S10 AP3 guns at BS 3...that is 2 dead transports a turn (maybe)... or possibly a dead MC...or 3-4 HP off a super heavy! All for 1000 points .

I can't believe they kept the Warhound so cheap. I mean, look at the new Lord of Skulls - are they really saying that the Warhound, both better protected and armed should cost LESS than that? This is definitely an issue with the Titan pricing. Then again, that's always been the case unless you bring deep striking melta. I wish they'd at least tried to fix the Titans, they clearly did try for the Hierophant and things, why make the Warhound so stupid?

Its the dumb gun pricing, a dual inferno warhound is barely worth 700 either, although would probably be dead fun to use in an infantry heavy game

As to the bunker, they had to leave it un-manned, otherwise balance on it is garbage if available to all armies, picking targets would have been nice, but I can still clearly see a use for these (especially in Apocalypse, three or four make for some scary parts of the board to try and enter).

Eyjio wrote:
why make the Warhound so stupid?

Immanent plastic Warhound?

*ducks*

 wyomingfox wrote:


GC in general get IWND and FNP. Hierophant gets regenerate.

IWND isn't on the leaked scan page of GC rules, just FNP.

Hierophant is more vulnerable to Str 6-7 weapons, ID weapons (causes 1D3 wounds each) and Poison Weapons (I don't recall any special rules that protect it against poison weapons). I don't recall seeing a invulnerable save either.

There aren't that many ID weapons that work outside of melee, and with lash whips and S10 AP2 it's pretty unlikely those will get to strike.
GC's are wounded by poison on 6+ (unless the strength would be better).
According to some other rumours it has a 6++ invuln just like in 4th edition. I haven't seen the book myself yet.
How is it more vulnerable to S6/7? If anything, FNP makes it less vulnerable.

I can't see a Hirophant getting in CC with a Warhound.

.

There are several ways to get it across the board quickly, including various strategic assets that allow outflank-type moves. The best option I see is All Out Attack to move 36" then charge. Ideally you want it tied up in melee with something fearless that will survive the first round of assault, so it can't be shot in your opponent's turn.

Meanwhile the Heirophant comes with two - 6 shot S10 AP3 guns at BS 3...that is 2 dead transports a turn (maybe)... or possibly a dead MC...or 3-4 HP off a super heavy! All for 1000 points .

Don't forget that it can benefit from Preferred Enemy when shooting (which is pretty easy to get). I also don't see the Hierophant primarily as a shooting unit like the Warhound, but rather something you shove as hard as you can into the enemy line and force them to deal with or else... like most Nids. It can also benefit from the Reanimate strategic asset to come back to life (and start regenerating wounds again).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Warhound isn't good. It's just mainly that the new Destroyer rules are pretty unbalanced and should have been reflected by a higher points cost when units have the option to take them. You're also kinda comparing apples to oranges by putting a ranged shooty unit with undercosted weapons up against a short-to-mid range linebreaker unit that synergizes really well with the rest of it's army.

The hierophant comes with a Bio-titan Warpfield giving him the 6++.

But that would'nt make much difference, seeing that D weapons completly Ignores Invulnerable saves and FnP...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
The hierophant comes with a Bio-titan Warpfield giving him the 6++.

But that would'nt make much difference, seeing that D weapons completly Ignores Invulnerable saves and FnP...

Could you give us more info on the Tesseract Vault and Transcendant C'tan? What are all the available powers, for instance?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
The hierophant comes with a Bio-titan Warpfield giving him the 6++.

Do you have the book? Can you tell us more about the Hierodule?

Well has described its a Gargantuan Creature, son it has FnP,Stomp,Fear,Fearless,Move Through covers,Relentless,Smash and Strikedown.

Poissoned attacks only work on a 6, excepte if the S of the attack is good enough.

Move 12, can shoot with all its weapons, and at different targets, but can't fire in Overwatch.

Attacks that deals ID or says that the model is removed from play only inflict D3 wounds

And that all is only because it is a GC.

It as a WS 6, BS 3, S10, T9, W10, I 3, A8, LD10, Save 2+.

2 biocanons( 6S10 AP3 48" per canon)
Lasherwhips
Scything talons
Toxic miasma
Regenration.

As the same Agile rule has Warhound titan and has said before 6++ save.

For the Tesseract Vault and C'tan;

Tesseract Vault.

Super Heavy skimmer( because its a super heavy it can't Jinks)

315pts

Living Metal.
Power of the C'tan; when a Vault fires, use the LoS and range from the C'tan.

Chained One Vengeance(please bear in mind that i use the french version of the book, so my translation of this, might be approximative); When the Vault loose its last HP, the Vault automatically takes a Apocalyptic Explosion, no nedd to roll on the catastrophic damage table.

Options; a Vault MUSt choose 2 of the following powers.

Cosmic fire-----------60pts Hellstorm S6 AP2 Heavy 1
Star fall----------------115pts 48" S7 Ap3 Primary Weapon 6 Apocalyptic Barrage
Transdimensional maelstorm---------120pts 36" S9 Ap2 Primary Weapon Apocalyptic Explosion
Shockwave-----------------120pts Hellstorm S: D AP1 Primary Weapon1
Anti-matter Meteora-----------150pts ;48" S 10/8/6 Ap1/2/3 Primary Weapon1, Mega Apocalyptic Explosion
Sismic Assault/Attack.------------200pts ; 48" S8 Ap3 Heavy 6D6

For info Primary Weapons works like Ordenance weapons, you roll 2 dices for Penetration and pick the highest.

Also for those of you who have the old green barrage template, you can use it, but it says in the book that the deviation would work a bit different then with the new barrage templates.

Transcandent c'tan.

GC 420pts

WS6, BS6, S9, T9, W6, I5, A8, LD10, Save3+

transcandent necroderm; 4++save, when he lost his last wound all the models in a 4D6" radius takes a S10 Ap2 hit.

Options;
he must choose 1 of the following powers.

Divine firestorm-----------50pts
Sismic Shockwave----------60pts
Transliminale Step/Leap------120pts

Divine Firestorm; At the end of the move phase center the large explosion template on the C'tan, all the models( friends or foe, except the C'tan) takes a S6 Ap3, ignore covers hit, vehicles are hit on their flanks.

Sismic Shockwave : Stomp attacks of the C'tan are made with the large blast template, not the little blast.

Transliminale Step/Leap ; In place of moving the C'tan can decide to make a special move of 18" in a straigth line, ignoring all terrains or models in its trajectory. All modesl friends or foe, on the trajectory takes a S; D Ap- hit, a C'tan who uses this ability can't assault in the same turn.

A C'tan must choose 2 of the following powers.

Those are identically the same has with the vault, pts cost are identical.

I'm totally getting a Firestorm Redoubt for my Tyranids.

Don't care if it targets the closest enemy Flyer or Flying MC, its still doing more to them than I ever was!

I really hate the 6 rolls for D weapons. 2-5 is fine IMO, very powerful but it should be. The 6 results are stupid though - a single shot can kill a Biotitan, any Baneblade sized vehicle or the new Lord of Skulls. I mean, really? Why? Did that sound like fun to anybody? That sort of thing made vortex grenades broken even for apoc standard before, why would you make EVERYTHING possibly like that? Do Space Marines even have a reason not to field 16 psykers in 4 groups of 4 to launch around those S D large vortexes? Bleh. Even letting inv saves be taken vs S D won't save the Biotitan if it's only got a 6++. It's a weird conundrum where the best possible army now is foot guard because your thousands of men give no feths about S D large blasts. I don't really understand why you would make almost any non-titan super heavy/gargantuan so useless in the face of S D.

Also, the Finest Hour traits look fantastic, yet Exemplar Personality is so pointless. Warlord rerolls all his "To Wound" rolls? Who cares when you could give all your guys within 24" FNP? ID and armour ignoring attacks? Why bother when I can bring back my Titan? It just seems weird, maybe it'd be worth it if your Warlord was a Baneblade command tank but I can't see them surviving for more than 10 seconds when the enemy has S D weapons.

Overall, I'm still excited but S D will need to be reworked a lot. The guy with 5 pylons will be happy at least, those Titans are going to be a total joke to him.

What about the Hierodule, has that changed at all? What's the new points cost?

I really don't see why they had to make D weapons ignore invulnerables. It makes it hard to believe any big legendary commander could survive for any length of time actually fighting in the field if all they have to rely on is a lucky roll against D weapons. It would have perfectly fit the image of 40K and humanity being small fry in the grand scheme for the daemon/Phoenix Lord/Chaos Lord to somehow stagger out of a massive steaming crater of a D weapon hit, while the human gunners look on amazed and aghast at how they survived such a hit.

 xttz wrote:
What about the Hierodule, has that changed at all? What's the new points cost?

Hierodule is a GC, 565pts

2 Biocanons
Scything talons

Agile

WS4, BS3, S10, T8, W6, I3, A5, LD10, save 3+

Also funny thing about nids is that they Can use IG's formations, the fluff excuse is that they are used has Genestealers Cult, who have stolen Ig tanks and materials, they also takes the Lost and damned Chaos formation has an example

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
save 3+

Sigh... Why did I expect that to change?

Apparently some of the Apocalypse datasheets for conversion project superheavies like Skullhamma are in the Warzone supplements for Apocalypse.

Whats the deal with stompas now? Can we take cool weapon upgrades like a deff arsenal or belly gun or do we have to wait for a IA update?

Stompas have :
Killer(Killa?) Kanon-S10 Ap1 72" Huge explosion,
Super Gatling and still use the Psycho-blasta-rama rule
3 Super rokitz
Karbonizator(Scorcha?)
Mega-Kikoup( don't know the name in english), its a D Ap1 melee weapon.

12Hp's, Av13/13/12
770pts and 2 additional Super Rokits for 20pts each.

there is also in the Armageddon Warzone the Mek-Stompa and he can take a Belly Killer Kanon

Wuuuuut? We pay round 170 more points for the same stuff and stats we had before? I know the super rokkits became large blast but as far as I remember we lost co-axial on our super-gatler. Games workshop reaaaaaaaally wants to nerf the older kits don't they? Good thing we can just reprice it appropriately and use IA8 and equivalents instead. Bunch of spankers GW are > I bet Ward had something to do with this....

Well, no, for once Ward has nothing to do with it.

The Book was written by Jervis and Kelly.

Rule for Harridan please!

I cant find any allowance for super heavy walkers or GC to move through or over enemy units. Also there doesnt seem to be any rules that keep these units from being tarpitted in close combat.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 xttz wrote:
What about the Hierodule, has that changed at all? What's the new points cost?

Hierodule is a GC, 565pts

2 Biocanons
Scything talons

Agile

WS4, BS3, S10, T8, W6, I3, A5, LD10, save 3+

What about the Scythed Heirodule, or is that not in there?

 Grimskul wrote:
Wuuuuut? We pay round 170 more points for the same stuff and stats we had before? I know the super rokkits became large blast but as far as I remember we lost co-axial on our super-gatler. Games workshop reaaaaaaaally wants to nerf the older kits don't they? Good thing we can just reprice it appropriately and use IA8 and equivalents instead. Bunch of spankers GW are > I bet Ward had something to do with this....

Owning the IA8 book means I never take a stock stompa. for that same 770ish I get a klawstompa that wrecks face in close combat with a power field and a deff arsenal for 3d6 lascannon shots. I suppose the blast rule was to get around supa rokkits being the best AA without skyfire.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Rule for Harridan please!

Gargantuan flying Creature, 735pts

WS4 BS3 S10 T8 W8 I3 A4 LD10 Save3+

2 Biocanons
Scything talons

Gargoyles Swarm; The Harridan can act as a open topped transport for 1 Swarm of 20 Gargoyles.
If the Harridan is killed while the swarm is still "embarked" each gargoyle makes an Init test, those who fails are removed from play, remove then the Harridan model and place the Gargoyles in the space that the Harridan occupied and more then 1" from ennemy models, the Swarm can then act normaly.

wyomingfox wrote:I cant find any allowance for super heavy walkers or GC to move through or over enemy units. Also there doesnt seem to be any rules that keep these units from being tarpitted in close combat.

Walkers and GC are basiccaly Bigger Walkers and MC's, so appart from the extra rules, they use the normal rules sets for combat and be in contact with ennemy models.

But tarpitting a SHW or GC would be difficulte, the darn things are nearly invulnerable, you have to make explodes damages to the Walkers, and GC as a huge amount of Wounds, plus the Stomps attacks really helps to clear ennemy units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 xttz wrote:
What about the Hierodule, has that changed at all? What's the new points cost?

Hierodule is a GC, 565pts

2 Biocanons
Scything talons

Agile

WS4, BS3, S10, T8, W6, I3, A5, LD10, save 3+

What about the Scythed Heirodule, or is that not in there?

This profil is the Barbed Hierodule i think( Hierodule Barbelé), or is it the Scythed hierodule?...

All i know is that the book only has one Hierodule, and thats the one with the biocannons.