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2014/11/19 22:39:28
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jifel wrote: Are fighter Aces not usually allowed in game? Most of these upgrades seem to be well worth the points cost for a roll. I would gladly pay 35 for my Warlord to roll on that table!
This^^ I think it's well worth paying 35 points to either get an extra wound or be able to LEAVE THE TABLE and never get dropped on if you position correctly. On a 3+. The 1-2 is kind of meh but I'd throw that on my warlord at least
2014/11/19 22:42:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jifel wrote: Are fighter Aces not usually allowed in game? Most of these upgrades seem to be well worth the points cost for a roll. I would gladly pay 35 for my Warlord to roll on that table!
that page clearly says it's fine but just costs 35 pts tax!
2014/11/19 22:43:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Tyranids have two. Am I mistaken? Does leviathan count as its own combined arms detachment? Can we not take Codex: Tyranids primary and leviathan as another source without going dual cad?
2014/11/19 22:45:17
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
luke1705 wrote: Tyranids have two. Am I mistaken? Does leviathan count as its own combined arms detachment? Can we not take Codex: Tyranids primary and leviathan as another source without going dual cad?
it counts as its own detachment, so you won't be able to have that + a CAD in a tournament - most of them anyway
2014/11/19 22:47:51
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
The Pyrovore has long been infamous as quite possibly the worst unit in the codex and the game at large. Happily, that is no longer the case, and it serves as a fairly loose middle road.
1. It has reliable firepower for clearing objectives and hordes.
2. It benefits from the Promethium relay, which can support it in either a defensive or offensive capacity.
The major weakness of the Pyrovore lies in its mobility. Unfortunately, the Pyrovore just happens to be an incredibly slow moving platform with very little in the way for options to get around faster. However, once kitted out with some transportation, they can actually become far more effective. Each of them is armed with a heavy flamer, so going after hordes is generally the most commonly accepted method of use, however they can also get a good bit of mileage out of going after dedicated assault units. Setting a nice juicy unit of Terminators on fire is going to make back a fair portion of its points back, and then the terminators are going to have to consider the following. Do I assault 3 flamers and take 3d3 automatic overwatch hits, or ignore them and get flamed every turn?
The only reliable transport options for Pyrovores are to take Trygon tunnels or hitching a ride inside a pod. Now, taking a pod is cheaper than the Trygon and waiting subsequent turns and gives it more time on the field to earn back points. It also seems to be the much better tactic in that you can hug it and force your opponent into a multi-assault. Eating a nest of devourers plus a group of 3 flamers in overwatch is going to be a bit much for most standard units that these things will be pitted against and it should allow you to either kill or tarpit the unit for several turns.
Promethium Relays will give your Pyrovores some range, but these fortifications are stationary and as long as your opponent avoids it, there is very little your Pyrovores can do to help make back points. This would only be recommended in a defensive scenario.
Grades: C (Podvores), D (Tunvores), D (Promvores), F (Vanilla)
You didn't mention how awesome they are for clearing cover saves and open topped, a critical role for us and a job they do better than any unit in the codex. They outdamage Biovores and Tyrannofex to practically any target in the game. You also didn't mention the excellent fact that they are Elite's not heavy. I cannot agree with the C rating. It's ridiculously low for an outstanding unit.
Also, given that taking them to deploy through a tunnel from a Trygon (one of the worst 200 point investments in the game) is a strategy that will still have them coming in from the board edge anyway over 80% of the time, I can see absolutely no reason for Podvores to be but one rank lower than Tunnelvores. That just makes zero sense.
Is your post all theorycraft, or have you actually played some games with the Pyrovore in pods? Hard to think that anyone who has could possibly see this as a C-Grade unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet you gave the Tyranid Prime a B, and both reviews got posted to the front page.... That is crazy.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 22:58:07
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/19 23:00:51
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jifel wrote: Are fighter Aces not usually allowed in game? Most of these upgrades seem to be well worth the points cost for a roll. I would gladly pay 35 for my Warlord to roll on that table!
This^^ I think it's well worth paying 35 points to either get an extra wound or be able to LEAVE THE TABLE and never get dropped on if you position correctly. On a 3+. The 1-2 is kind of meh but I'd throw that on my warlord at least
From today on I'm taking fighter ace flyrants on every single one I use.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/11/19 23:07:51
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Carnifex Overall rating = A- The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids.
This seems like the complete opposite description of why to take a Carnifex, almost every build already has two Flyrants that do exactly this and little else offensively. In fact, the only reason Carnifexes aren't autoinclude is because Flyrants (who are in pretty much every way, Carnifexes with Wings and Synapse) are a must have for Synapse and mobility, and further points spent on S6 Dakka MIGHT be a little redundant over things like AP2 blasts and cover ignoring weaponry, tarpits, heavy assault, etc, depending on your build. Carnifex is still an awesome model and maybe the most spammable unit in the dex, at the end of the day, the reason to take it is because you feel you have your bases covered well enough and he's probably the most cost efficient source of damage output in the dex. There's no way he isn't an A+ model or just an A at worst, he is at the very top tier of the power level of individual units in our dex. Flyrant may have Synapse and wings but he pays 100 pts more for it (and is also an A+ model). I usually agree with what you say Frozo, I just think you might have missed the mark a bit with this tactica.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 23:11:39
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/19 23:09:32
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Tyran wrote: Can you buy Fighter Ace for a Harridan?
No, the Harridan is a Flying Gargantuan Creature, not a FMC.
@SHUPPET, I marked it as a A- as it does have some drawbacks that I mentioned, like needing Synapse to function (or else it may not make use of it's ranged weapons for a turn) and it is the least durable TMC (Maleceptor, what Maleceptor) that Nids have. Even with these drawbacks, it's still a fantastic unit and one of the top HS options.
That said, people have commented on my post and I do intend to edit it when I have a more time on my hands.
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/19 23:20:41
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
Spoiler:
1) The best scorers in the codex. Their mobility enhancements allows them to move 13.5" on average. They can get to an objective anywhere on the board in 2 turns and do so reliably, and score it when they get there thanks to Objective secured. They aren't Eldar Jetbike good, but they are close.
2) Board Control. This may mean congalining across multiple objectives to contest them, or getting in the way of an imperial knight, or other deathstar. They are a unit that can move past midfield on turn one, and push the opponent to the outside and edges of the board.
3) Objective Denial. Even a min squad can stretch across multiple objectives to deny them.
4) MC Protection. Hormagaunts are a good screening unit because they move faster than anything they can screen. They are also an assault denial unit. By placing themselves between an MC and a unit that would like to assault it they can prevent assaults and frustrate opponents allowing MC's to continue putting out damage.
5) The Anvil. While Hormagaunts are the best scorers available to Tyranids, they also have the ability to neutralize enemy shooting. Even a min squad can hold up most shooty units for a turn until something killy can get there to deal with it. Thanks to their smaller base and profile, hormagants are even better at this than gargoyles because they usually won't deny a charge to the heavies coming behind them. Against many things, a malanthrope can offer enough hammer to deal with the shooty unit.
6) Deployment Aid. Why do Tyranids fear drop pods? Because they don't have enough hormagants and gargoyles. By spacing them out around your MC's you can deny drop pods the position that they would like to alpha strike.
7) Cover Saves. When there is no terrain to hide in, Hormagants can become mobile terrain. Thanks to their low cost, and low threat profile, they aren't likely to take fire.
8) Assault linking. If you have a model capable of chalking up wounds, you can send that model into some kroot, and the hormagants can multi-assault a riptide and the kroot allowing you to quickly eliminate potential threats.
9) MSU. Unlike Termagants, Hormagants can quickly spread out across the board giving your opponents a rough time tracking them down.
10) Drawing Fire. In many situations Hormagants can be used to successfully draw fire away from MC's. If they contest an important objective, or just get in the way, suddenly shots must be wasted on them. With a Malanthrope sidekick, they are always more durable than expected, and thanks to the decent squad sizes they can congaline into terrain or out of Line of Sight.
Other ways to run hormagants.
1) Wraith Knight's nightmare: 20 hormagants with Toxin sacs strike fear into the hearts of many MC's and elite infantry.
2) Transport Killer: 15 hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands can deal with most transports in the game, and also are better equipped to kill MEQ than Poison gants. On average it will take 9 AG Gants to kill a 3 hullpoint vehicle with back armor 10.
3) The Tarpit: 20+ Hormagants with no upgrades can tarpit walkers easily. A good Solution to kill Elite infantry.
4) Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard. 17 hormagants w/ a Tyranid prime in a Tyrannocyte. They can give the prime fleet, ablative wounds, and extra attacks to deal with 2+ armor.
Grades: A (Maelstrom Winner). B (Wraith Knight's Nightmare). B- (Transport Killer). B (The Tarpit), C (Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard)
As i said, i'm full of hormagaunt love, but these guides are for everyone, we must write down what is commonly accepted.
And come on if Dakka Flyrants are B how can you rate Hgaunts A.
C is a good rate i think. Useful in their right contest but not seen in many lists i.e. a well designed model.
So your vision of Tacticas is that they should reflect conventional wisdom no matter how wrong it might be, and that writing a tactica for "everyone" means writing it only for players who play exclusively eternal war missions? I strongly doubt that is even a majority of people.
I'm not undercutting your Tactica. It is pretty much correct if you only run Eternal War missions, especially if you play in a limited meta that doesn't include Drop Pods, Orks, or IG. I just added an alternative view for those who might run Maelstrom or partial Maelstrom.
Also, I wouldn't grade a Dakkaflyrant as a B. A to A+ depending on how you grade it. I think that is how JY2 graded it.
2014/11/19 23:29:34
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I'm not undercutting your Tactica. It is pretty much correct if you only run Eternal War missions, especially if you play in a limited meta that doesn't include Drop Pods, Orks, or IG. I just added an alternative view for those who might run Maelstrom or partial Maelstrom.
Haha. "I'm not saying that your wrong, just that you are only right in ridiculously specific situations."
I agree with you both however. Horms are a really good troop. But that's not saying much because our troops in general suck. I think C is the correct rating for Horms.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/19 23:34:11
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
A little over two years ago my wife and I started playing Warhammer. Tyranids were a motley crew, with 2 Tyrants and tervigons abound recommended. Your best bet was Trygons in the heavy support.
Now...theres a gajillion bizarre ass rules to make a list. It makes me feel like a new player all over again, Warhammer has gotten ridiculous.
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Tag,
I think you may be one of the people who plays maelstrom more than most others on this forum. Maybe your contribution could be amending or giving an addendum to some units based on the differences in their usefulness in Maelstrom. I'll be honest - the closest I usually get to Maelstrom is still modified maelstrom of some sort (BAO secondaries, etc) and that is just not the same thing.
Frozocone,
I haven't read the fighter ace rules in detail, but gargantuan creatures are a subset of monstrous creatures. Can't be a gargantuan creature and not a monstrous creature. You can argue semantics that gargantuan creatures are a more specific subset of monstrous creatures, which are not given permission to be fighter aces. However, if being a monstrous creature is the only pre-requisite, then by RAW they're in. That being said, I think they actually benefit from it less than our other bugs. You're just not going to kill a harridan. 1-2 are useless, literally. And it really doesn't need another wound, or the ability to out-maneuver enemy fighters. MAYBE if you could pick the upgrade (thereby guaranteeing 5-6) for a harridan it would be nice, but as as? Nah
2014/11/19 23:41:32
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Tyran wrote: Can you buy Fighter Ace for a Harridan?
@SHUPPET, I marked it as a A- as it does have some drawbacks that I mentioned, like needing Synapse to function (or else it may not make use of it's ranged weapons for a turn) and it is the least durable TMC (Maleceptor, what Maleceptor) that Nids have. Even with these drawbacks, it's still a fantastic unit and one of the top HS options.
That said, people have commented on my post and I do intend to edit it when I have a more time on my hands.
Then most the codex has this drawback. It's silly to mark a unit down for this, especially when the Flyrant pays so much for it. It's not worse for not having Synapse, it's just different. In fact, if he was 40 points more and had Synapse (aka Walking Tyrant) you would never see him played. It's important that he doesn't have Synapse because you can get that coverage elsewhere, he is important for cheaply spammable Devourers and threatening every single vehicle in the game. A+ I think is the only fair rating for Dakkafex, I could accept A, but A minus suggests it's at the bottom of the toptier units in the dex, which is farrr from the truth.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/19 23:42:59
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I've spent over 5+ hours looking and locating all I need (book-wise) to run the new nids. I stopped playing them awhile back when the new nids book droppped and there is A LOT of new rules/models/etc.
Feels like I spent the entire day trying to figure out what's available to the nids, let alone what is good or viable xD
That being said, I agree with lechine! Haha. However, I'm grateful that GW released all this new content. After a few hundred lists and playtests, I'm sure there will be plenty of lists that will be competitive.
2014/11/19 23:43:52
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Also, tag has touched on something that many of us should strive to emulate in any unit reviews that we conduct. What is a unit's purpose? How well does it achieve that purpose? How well does it achieve a secondary or tertiary purpose that someone may or may not want to use it for?
2014/11/19 23:51:52
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/19 23:55:17
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
SHUPPET wrote: You didn't mention how awesome they are for clearing cover saves and open topped, a critical role for us and a job they do better than any unit in the codex. They outdamage Biovores and Tyrannofex to practically any target in the game. You also didn't mention the excellent fact that they are Elite's not heavy. I cannot agree with the C rating. It's ridiculously low for an outstanding unit.
Also, given that taking them to deploy through a tunnel from a Trygon (one of the worst 200 point investments in the game) is a strategy that will still have them coming in from the board edge anyway over 80% of the time, I can see absolutely no reason for Podvores to be but one rank lower than Tunnelvores. That just makes zero sense.
Is your post all theorycraft, or have you actually played some games with the Pyrovore in pods? Hard to think that anyone who has could possibly see this as a C-Grade unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet you gave the Tyranid Prime a B, and both reviews got posted to the front page.... That is crazy.
Neither post is done. No single person will write the review. While my work will lay the background, this is a community effort. Just let me know what I missed and I can work it into the review. Now for the next part... Tunvores are below Podvores because it takes 2 turns in order for Pyrovores to use the tunnel. A very slow deployment. Makes sense to me. Now. No unit ever gets an A. As are unreachable. Pyrovores are slow, and have to rely on others for transport. A C is about all I feel it deserves.
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/11/19 23:56:55
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Saythings wrote: I've spent over 5+ hours looking and locating all I need (book-wise) to run the new nids. I stopped playing them awhile back when the new nids book droppped and there is A LOT of new rules/models/etc.
Feels like I spent the entire day trying to figure out what's available to the nids, let alone what is good or viable xD
That being said, I agree with lechine! Haha. However, I'm grateful that GW released all this new content. After a few hundred lists and playtests, I'm sure there will be plenty of lists that will be competitive.
Wrong attitude. There is already plenty of competitive lists being posted every day. The INSANE internal balance GW has blessed us with means there is no longer one or two "best" ways to play Nids. It's not about waiting for someone to discover the optimal build here, there isn't one.
SHUPPET wrote: You didn't mention how awesome they are for clearing cover saves and open topped, a critical role for us and a job they do better than any unit in the codex. They outdamage Biovores and Tyrannofex to practically any target in the game. You also didn't mention the excellent fact that they are Elite's not heavy. I cannot agree with the C rating. It's ridiculously low for an outstanding unit.
Also, given that taking them to deploy through a tunnel from a Trygon (one of the worst 200 point investments in the game) is a strategy that will still have them coming in from the board edge anyway over 80% of the time, I can see absolutely no reason for Podvores to be but one rank lower than Tunnelvores. That just makes zero sense.
Is your post all theorycraft, or have you actually played some games with the Pyrovore in pods? Hard to think that anyone who has could possibly see this as a C-Grade unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet you gave the Tyranid Prime a B, and both reviews got posted to the front page.... That is crazy.
Neither post is done. No single person will write the review. While my work will lay the background, this is a community effort. Just let me know what I missed and I can work it into the review. Now for the next part... Tunvores are below Podvores because it takes 2 turns in order for Pyrovores to use the tunnel. A very slow deployment. Makes sense to me. Now. No unit ever gets an A. As are unreachable. Pyrovores are slow, and have to rely on others for transport. A C is about all I feel it deserves.
Yes but why is one of the better units available in the dex (Pyrovores in pods) only one rank higher than a gimmicky, beyond unreliable strategy that hurts the Pyrovore instead of helping it more than 4 times out 5, and costs an additional 200 points sunk into one of the worst units in the dex (Trygon)?
It doesn't make sense to me.
For the price of a squad of Biovores, you have a unit that hits harder, more reliably, and you have more control over who the templates catch and wound allocation. The downside has always been no mobility for fairly ineffecient durability, but now they can take a Cyte and roll straight in. The trade off being you are right up in their face, but meh the rest of your army probably should be too. And when they die, they blow up. And if they don't die they are great in assault. You might not want to give them an A, but I think A- or B+ at the minimum is deserved. They are better than B grade stuff like Tyrannofex, and only slightly less useable than A grade stuff like Biovores (who win out for being in Living Artillery)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, why does not unit get an A? We are ranking the units in our codex in tiers, it kind of makes sense that our VERY best unit(s) sit at A+, and unplayable crap sits at F for fail. Otherwise we just have a useless tier, and the subtle suggestion that alot of our best units are lacking A grade potential, which is kind of untrue, and doesn't strike me as a sensible way of structuring the grading tiers. At all.
That being said, if you aren't going to give anyone an A, that means B is your highest, and I have to ask, why on earth would you give your highest ranking available to a Tyranid Prime? They are an overpriced, highly niche unit that fights with Flyrant for a slot. I don't know, I just think putting a little more thought into reviews that are going to get posted on the front page might be nice.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 00:14:23
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/20 00:16:40
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
I'm not saying that two good units can't have the same designation of "take them without reservations and you will not regret it". All I'm saying is that the carnifex is not without drawbacks. It is very good, don't get me wrong. But for example, when you claim that lack of synapse isn't a drawback, it absolutely is. When it fails a LD test, it can kill itself. That's not cool. Also, it is unable to do anything on the turn that it smacks itself. Should this ever happen if you play it right? Of course not, but that's like saying, "should a shrike ever be taking an armor save outside of all cover?" Of course not - don't be silly. Use cover, thropes of your choosing (except Zoans haha) and intervening models at worst. However, that doesn't mean that their 5+ armor isn't a drawback - it absolutely is the definition of a drawback. Much like the carnifexes inability to flip tanks whenever he wants to because he is not fast enough to chase down his metallic prey much of the time. That is a problem when you want to use carnifexes to can open tanks. So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor"). I think A- to A is a fair designation, but A+ is reaching a bit for a unit that has so many issues (maybe A+ when you throw him in a pod or roll MOA.....oh MOA....)
Automatically Appended Next Post: One more thing Shuppet, I think we should try and avoid comparison ratings for FOC slots. We can always say, "why would you take Deathleaper/any other HQ slot - Flyrants are so much better". However, that does not inherently hurt the functionality of that unit and I think it's best to look at a unit by what it can do for your army instead of the opportunity cost associated with taking it over other units. Maybe worth mentioning, but that doesn't inherently change the rating for any given unit. Don't let the flyrant wreck the curve
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 00:19:22
2014/11/20 00:32:57
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
I'm not saying that two good units can't have the same designation of "take them without reservations and you will not regret it". All I'm saying is that the carnifex is not without drawbacks. It is very good, don't get me wrong. But for example, when you claim that lack of synapse isn't a drawback, it absolutely is. When it fails a LD test, it can kill itself. That's not cool. Also, it is unable to do anything on the turn that it smacks itself. Should this ever happen if you play it right? Of course not, but that's like saying, "should a shrike ever be taking an armor save outside of all cover?" Of course not - don't be silly. Use cover, thropes of your choosing (except Zoans haha) and intervening models at worst. However, that doesn't mean that their 5+ armor isn't a drawback - it absolutely is the definition of a drawback. Much like the carnifexes inability to flip tanks whenever he wants to because he is not fast enough to chase down his metallic prey much of the time. That is a problem when you want to use carnifexes to can open tanks. So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor"). I think A- to A is a fair designation, but A+ is reaching a bit for a unit that has so many issues (maybe A+ when you throw him in a pod or roll MOA.....oh MOA....)
This is talking like Flyrants don't pay biggest pulls isn't the fact that it has Synapse. It's basically a 90 point upgrade to Dakkafex for Synapse and wings, which in turn makes it the best Synapse unit in the dex. Including 2 of them is pretty standard for almost every build. If they did not have Synapse they would be much worse, because these give you a bulk of Synapse coverage. Now, once you have a bulk of Synapse coverage - why do your Dakkafexes that are either rushing up the board with them, or deepstriking in, want to ALSO be paying more for Synapse? It would basically ramp them up to Trygon prices, and the fact that they don't have Synapse is important to how they work in UNISON with your army. Yes it won't always be helpful, but it's definitely better than spending extra points on them to make them un-necessary Synapse carries. Remember, Flyrant DOES pay for this Synapse ability, and if he couldn't take wings as well, he would be worth it (take a look at walking Tyrant - they aren't played just because Flyrants are so good, they aren't played because they are overpriced.)
One more thing Shuppet, I think we should try and avoid comparison ratings for FOC slots. We can always say, "why would you take Deathleaper/any other HQ slot - Flyrants are so much better". However, that does not inherently hurt the functionality of that unit and I think it's best to look at a unit by what it can do for your army instead of the opportunity cost associated with taking it over other units. Maybe worth mentioning, but that doesn't inherently change the rating for any given unit. Don't let the flyrant wreck the curve
Well, this is just wrong. It completely affects the viability of a unit. We aren't playing unbound, so every single unit taken comes at the cost of taking another possible unit in the same slot. For a slot that only has 2 positions, and in this slot is the very best unit of the dex, a unit that covers many VERY important roles, it is very relevant. It doesn't make Deathleapers affect on the board any less, but it does affect the rest of your army, especially if you are making the sacrifice of a Flyrant to take one if a Flyrant would be the better model here. It's unfortunate that this is how it works, but this IS how it works. May not be enough to change the rating of a unit on it's own merits, but it's always worth mentioning, and definitely a plus to units that sit in the Fast Attack, Troop, and Elite slots for us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 00:33:49
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/20 00:35:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
BTW, are we all in agreement for Stone Crushers?
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/20 00:35:43
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor").
Yup. Please show me, where I have said anything even resembling this statement, during the entire duration of this thread from the first page onwards. It's not what I've ever implied.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
BTW, are we all in agreement for Stone Crushers?
In which case I think the Flyrant should be marked down as well, because it's only so good on the fact that it has Synapse, which might just end up being ineffecient points at times, at least enough to take the unit down to an A-.
This is a silly way to look at units, and most circumstances its an excellent thing that Carnifex is not paying the prices that Tyrants do for their Synapse, just as most circumstances make Flyrant an excellent Synapse carrier. this and should not be looked at as a negative to either unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 00:43:25
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/20 00:45:34
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
ObSec isn't as big a deal anymore for bugs. That is because their competitive builds do not rely on ObSec units taking objectives, but rather, on overloading the opponent with more threats than they can handle. Our lists work much better with the emphasis on units that contribute to the Tyranid offensive machine than to units just holding objectives. That is why fundamentally, we are going down and down with our troop count.
It used to be tervigon + 30 termagants. It then became units of 10 horm/termagants, which then changed to 3 rippers. The newest evolution of our troops - the mucolids - can't even score at all!
This is a sad excuse for game design and it's effects on the way the game has evolved too.....Troops are the backbone of every army, as they should be. When your troops suck, the army is generally terrible. Tyranids are proof of this. OTOH, if our troops were costed in line with other armies we'd be talking.
Termagants are priced appropriately, but not worth taking anymore
Hormagaunts need to drop 2 points OR get the old scything talon rule back
Genestealers need to cost 10-11 points to be worthwhile
Rippers are costed appropriately, but wouldn't ever be taken without the deep strike option
Warriors are ridiculously over costed....either the stock warrior should cost 20 points, or they need to gain T5 at their current cost....
I'm not saying we have the WORST end of the troop stick, but the game would be much better off if troops had a higher importance in the game...
(EDIT). I'm also not saying that Tyranids are terribad....mainly their troops choices. Because Tyranids (partly) don't play the actual game (Kind of like Flying Circus deamons), the troops are less important.
Unfortunately, I actually agree with you to a certain degree. The optimal Tyranid army nowadays definitely is not troopcentric despite GW's attempts to make the game more centered around the troops. That is mainly because GW has made all the non-troop choices too good and Tyranid troops just too lacklaster. With just a few tweaks - including some of your suggestions - Tyranid troops can be trendy again, but that probably isn't going to happen for while, especially since GW is trending away from ObSec with non-ObSec formations with each new release of a codex.
Then again, for as long as I have played the game, there have always been (and will always be) armies that just take min troops and focus the army almost entirely on all the other non-troop FOC choices. It's just a playstyle that, no matter how hard GW tries to veer us away, will always exist.
The Tyranid Warrior is the heart of the swarm and is used in many of the formations.
1. Super versatility allows it to take on a wide variety of jobs with little problem.
2. Has access to assault grenades
3. Psychic support for the army.
Added.
tag8833 wrote: I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
I think your perspective of the hormagant can be used to supplement the tactica. I will include it as an alternative viewpoint to Spoletta, both to complement and as a contrast to his views.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 00:54:04
I agree Jy2 and roxor, troops need a fixing. Roxor's points on troops are pretty correct as well.
One thing I would say is that I don't think Termagants are costed appropriately, they need to be cheaper still imo.
Also (not contesting just asking) what is the Psychic Support added by Warriors? SitW? I know its probably super obvious just wondering what I'm missing for it to be labelled as a dotpoint
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/20 01:04:12
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I'm not undercutting your Tactica. It is pretty much correct if you only run Eternal War missions, especially if you play in a limited meta that doesn't include Drop Pods, Orks, or IG. I just added an alternative view for those who might run Maelstrom or partial Maelstrom.
Haha. "I'm not saying that your wrong, just that you are only right in ridiculously specific situations."
Yep. Too many edits and not enough proof reading turn me into a Hypocrite.
I was suggesting and addendum not a replacement. Spoletta's tactica was pretty good, but was missing out on part of the picture. In the same way that a Lictor Tactica that approached them from the perspective of MSU, and doesn't consider situations where MSU is not as useful (I.E. the Relic, Emperor's Will, Kill Points) would be incomplete.
For reference sake, three Flyrants w/ 2x 
Hive Fleet Grootslang 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals