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Eldercaveman wrote:

Pertruabo wrote:
quick question guys
I it possible to field a full army of genestealers?

I wrote this list once, never yet got round to trying it out..

Leviathan Detachment

Spoiler:

Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers
Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers
Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers

Malonthrope

5 x Genestealers, Broodlord
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

Manafactorum Genestealer formation

5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

I ran this list a few times:

Tabled all of my opponents (a few Marines, IG, Necrons). I always meant to run it against Tau or Eldar, but never got around to it. We were playing Maelstrom and it was a nightmare trying to figure out which units were OS. I like your list better I think.

ETA: The IG player commented after the game, "That was the least fun I've ever had while playing 40k", so I put the list to bed. Though I did mean to pull it out against Tau some time.

Paint the rim of each base different colors for each unit. i do that with all my armies when I have more than one unit of a particular type.

Could even do color tones to help make faster for objective secured vs not. Like warm tones for obj secured(red, orange, yellows) and cool tones for the others (blue, purple, green).

It warms my heart to see people try to make Stealers work. I have been thinking about HyperToxic Node a lot recently, maybe the big swarm of Venos could make Stealers work...

So, Std CAD, 5 or 6 Broods of Stealers, Hypertoxic, maybe double out each Brood of Veno...it's so crazy, it just might work.

Off the top of my head...

HQ: Winged Dakka'rant, Electro
HQ: as above

Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor

Troops: Stealers, x5
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above

Heavy: Mawloc
Heavy: Mawloc

HyperToxic Node?

This actually looks promising...I'll scatch around on it for a while..

pinecone77 wrote:
It warms my heart to see people try to make Stealers work. I have been thinking about HyperToxic Node a lot recently, maybe the big swarm of Venos could make Stealers work...

So, Std CAD, 5 or 6 Broods of Stealers, Hypertoxic, maybe double out each Brood of Veno...it's so crazy, it just might work.

Off the top of my head...

HQ: Winged Dakka'rant, Electro
HQ: as above

Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor

Troops: Stealers, x5
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above

Heavy: Mawloc
Heavy: Mawloc

HyperToxic Node?

This actually looks promising...I'll scatch around on it for a while..

The problem with small broods of 'stealers is that it is so easy to render a brood useless after a couple of casualties. In small groups they are amazing for claiming objectives and being off-putting (and going to ground in ruins for a 3+ cover save is often a shock for opponents), but they rarely seem to to much heavy lifting in such small numbers. If you want Genestealers to carry the day in a more aggressive manner I really think you need to start looking into several huge broods, and if you're going down that route you're probably better off running a tidal wave of Raveners or Shrikes.

Genestealers have class though, and even after 20 years (which aside from a small window in 4th is when they were last truly lethal) they still creep opponents out enormously.

tag8833 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
I 2nd the bastion, and there are a lot of good reasons why you should deploy on the board, but My point is, you don't always have to deploy the flyrants on the board. Most of the time you will, but there I will be some matchups where it will be better deploying them in reserve.

So I agree with you in theory, but am unable to bring to mind any matchups where you would be better off reserving flyrants. There are certain reserve heavy lists where it might be good to deploy on the table, and then fly off on turn 1, but I just cannot bring to mind any matchups where reserving flyrants gives you a better chance of winning in a normal sized game (1500-2000). What sort of matchups are you envisioning? What would you deploy on the table in those matchups?

OrdoSean wrote:Reserving the flyrants is a highly situational event.

Against certain armies in hammer and anvil if you roll the infiltrate warlord trait it can be beneficial to outflank your flyrants. In pitched battle or vanguard I could see reserving them against certain high firepower armies if you cant get good blocking angles or they have major mobile fire power(cent star, drop pods, scouting bikers).

Its a tough thing to say because I agree that starting on the board is mostly better. But in cases in tournaments I would say reserving them might be the answer based on individual scenarios and matchups.

So to say there is never a situation where reserving them is the right play is also wrong.

Maybe if you are playing a lynx in dawn of war, and dont want to get ded out, or in a situation where you have to deploy first but your opponent has things that enables him to have a solid chance of seizing with an alpha strike army. Think of it as a tool in the tool box, you may not need it, but if you do your going to be really happy you practiced it at least once, or you know what to do.

Xyptc wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
It warms my heart to see people try to make Stealers work. I have been thinking about HyperToxic Node a lot recently, maybe the big swarm of Venos could make Stealers work...

So, Std CAD, 5 or 6 Broods of Stealers, Hypertoxic, maybe double out each Brood of Veno...it's so crazy, it just might work.

Off the top of my head...

HQ: Winged Dakka'rant, Electro
HQ: as above

Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor

Troops: Stealers, x5
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above

Heavy: Mawloc
Heavy: Mawloc

HyperToxic Node?

This actually looks promising...I'll scatch around on it for a while..

The problem with small broods of 'stealers is that it is so easy to render a brood useless after a couple of casualties. In small groups they are amazing for claiming objectives and being off-putting (and going to ground in ruins for a 3+ cover save is often a shock for opponents), but they rarely seem to to much heavy lifting in such small numbers. If you want Genestealers to carry the day in a more aggressive manner I really think you need to start looking into several huge broods, and if you're going down that route you're probably better off running a tidal wave of Raveners or Shrikes.

Genestealers have class though, and even after 20 years (which aside from a small window in 4th is when they were last truly lethal) they still creep opponents out enormously.

The secondary problem with genestealers is that even if they get to combat relatively unscathed (magically) they will then murder whatever they touch, likely freeing them up to be shot at (again) in your opponents' turn. So it's really perhaps more of an art than a science, figuring out what the right points investment is to make sure that they get there and win, but hopefully not on your turn. Because if they do just kill that one squad, there's a very good chance that they were more expensive than the squad you killed, so they are just an expensive bullet sponge traded for that one squad. Really all they need is a reliable way to get stealth. Gives them a 2+ gtg in ruins/rubble, allowing for forward infiltration. They also gain 2+ cover while behind say, a wall of gargoyles (assuming you have malanthrope support). This creates an actual target priority issue for most opponents around turn 2/3 (depending on who went first and how aggressive your infiltration was).

To me, the biggest problem with genestealers is simply the current meta. You have screamers, wraiths, GIANT wraithknights....everything can move 12+ inches it feels like. So not only will stealers not get the charge, but they won't be able to catch what they want to. I really don't have an issue with them as objective holders and deterrents to your opponents' obsec units. "Here....come....contest this objective....it will totally be worth it....for me" With maelstrom becoming a bigger and bigger thing, I would upgrade/change some ripper units to get a better chance at winning assault vs normal troops, rather than just getting ID'd by the first couple strength 6 shots that come my way.

Wraithknigts are a pretty big issue for bugs, I have been doing some lvo testing vs bugs with my eldar, and bugs have a serious issue controlling them. Along with the lac of obsec in most bug lists compared to my 9 obsec units, it makes for a difficult game. Then again you don't get murdered vs cent star like I do so its all about the matchups.

 krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
I 2nd the bastion, and there are a lot of good reasons why you should deploy on the board, but My point is, you don't always have to deploy the flyrants on the board. Most of the time you will, but there I will be some matchups where it will be better deploying them in reserve.

So I agree with you in theory, but am unable to bring to mind any matchups where you would be better off reserving flyrants. There are certain reserve heavy lists where it might be good to deploy on the table, and then fly off on turn 1, but I just cannot bring to mind any matchups where reserving flyrants gives you a better chance of winning in a normal sized game (1500-2000). What sort of matchups are you envisioning? What would you deploy on the table in those matchups?

OrdoSean wrote:Reserving the flyrants is a highly situational event.

Against certain armies in hammer and anvil if you roll the infiltrate warlord trait it can be beneficial to outflank your flyrants. In pitched battle or vanguard I could see reserving them against certain high firepower armies if you cant get good blocking angles or they have major mobile fire power(cent star, drop pods, scouting bikers).

Its a tough thing to say because I agree that starting on the board is mostly better. But in cases in tournaments I would say reserving them might be the answer based on individual scenarios and matchups.

So to say there is never a situation where reserving them is the right play is also wrong.

Maybe if you are playing a lynx in dawn of war, and dont want to get ded out, or in a situation where you have to deploy first but your opponent has things that enables him to have a solid chance of seizing with an alpha strike army. Think of it as a tool in the tool box, you may not need it, but if you do your going to be really happy you practiced it at least once, or you know what to do.

You definitely don't want to do it against a Lynx in Dawn of War. You need your flyrants to kill that Lynx. Sure it can hurt you, but you should be able to get a 2+ cover save.

I agree it is a tool, but I think it is a highly specialized tool that is primarily used for apocalypse games, and am not thinking of a situation where it is useful in normal sized games.

One blind spot I may have is Centstar. That is a build that doesn't exist in my meta, and so I'm not the most experienced with it, only getting in games when I beg people to proxy so I can see how it works. Because it is a psychic deatstar, it feels like reserving all of your psychic dice would be a mistake. I guess it depends on what the rest of your list looks like. If you are running a Barbed Heirodule, you definitely want the flyrants on the table, because Barbie is going to be a better target and solution to the Centstar, and you need the flyrants to help you deny Perfect Timing, and to make them pay a price for casting Invisibility. If you have a reserve heavy list, and can put enough MSU on the table that you don't worry about getting tabled, then maybe.

OrdoSean wrote:You definitely don't want to do it against a Lynx in Dawn of War. You need your flyrants to kill that Lynx. Sure it can hurt you, but you should be able to get a 2+ cover save.

This depends, because if they go first, no cover is going to save you from a lucky d shot. If you start them off the board, they will either try to fire at something else or fly the lynx off the board. It will renter next turn flying and you stopped it from shooting for 2 turns, and your flyrants are already in the air now.

OrdoSean wrote:I agree it is a tool, but I think it is a highly specialized tool that is primarily used for apocalypse games, and am not thinking of a situation where it is useful in normal sized games.

I agree its a specialized tool, but i disagree that it is only good for apoc (I dont actually play apoc so I have no idea if it's good or not there). I am speaking in terms of a gt style game. I cant see someone using it often, but in an 8 round gt, I could see myself reserving once or twice depending on the match. That or starting the flyrants on the board, then flying off turn 1.

OrdoSean wrote:One blind spot I may have is Centstar. That is a build that doesn't exist in my meta, and so I'm not the most experienced with it, only getting in games when I beg people to proxy so I can see how it works. Because it is a psychic deatstar, it feels like reserving all of your psychic dice would be a mistake. I guess it depends on what the rest of your list looks like. If you are running a Barbed Heirodule, you definitely want the flyrants on the table, because Barbie is going to be a better target and solution to the Centstar, and you need the flyrants to help you deny Perfect Timing, and to make them pay a price for casting Invisibility. If you have a reserve heavy list, and can put enough MSU on the table that you don't worry about getting tabled, then maybe.

Bugs have a solid game vs cent star, especially in lvo format. You just go for their obsec units and you should be able to win the mission. You can't really land the flyrants unless you are going 2nd and you know you there won't be enough time for another turn. I would consider reserving the flyrants vs the cent star, as there is really no solid target to go after turn 1 and if they want to kill a flyrant, it won't require much effort. However I would have to test the matchup. You really are not going to stop the powers your opponents wants so I wouldn't worry about not having those dice on the table.

 krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:You definitely don't want to do it against a Lynx in Dawn of War. You need your flyrants to kill that Lynx. Sure it can hurt you, but you should be able to get a 2+ cover save.

This depends, because if they go first, no cover is going to save you from a lucky d shot. If you start them off the board, they will either try to fire at something else or fly the lynx off the board. It will renter next turn flying and you stopped it from shooting for 2 turns, and your flyrants are already in the air now.

Would you rather count on making a 2+ cover save or a 3+ reserve Roll?

 krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:I agree it is a tool, but I think it is a highly specialized tool that is primarily used for apocalypse games, and am not thinking of a situation where it is useful in normal sized games.

I agree its a specialized tool, but i disagree that it is only good for apoc (I dont actually play apoc so I have no idea if it's good or not there). I am speaking in terms of a gt style game. I cant see someone using it often, but in an 8 round gt, I could see myself reserving once or twice depending on the match. That or starting the flyrants on the board, then flying off turn 1.

Definitely better off with the latter idea. Garantee that you are on turn 2 instead of gambling for it.

 krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:One blind spot I may have is Centstar. That is a build that doesn't exist in my meta, and so I'm not the most experienced with it, only getting in games when I beg people to proxy so I can see how it works. Because it is a psychic deatstar, it feels like reserving all of your psychic dice would be a mistake. I guess it depends on what the rest of your list looks like. If you are running a Barbed Heirodule, you definitely want the flyrants on the table, because Barbie is going to be a better target and solution to the Centstar, and you need the flyrants to help you deny Perfect Timing, and to make them pay a price for casting Invisibility. If you have a reserve heavy list, and can put enough MSU on the table that you don't worry about getting tabled, then maybe.

Bugs have a solid game vs cent star, especially in lvo format. You just go for their obsec units and you should be able to win the mission. You can't really land the flyrants unless you are going 2nd and you know you there won't be enough time for another turn. I would consider reserving the flyrants vs the cent star, as there is really no solid target to go after turn 1 and if they want to kill a flyrant, it won't require much effort. However I would have to test the matchup. You really are not going to stop the powers your opponents wants so I wouldn't worry about not having those dice on the table.

The thing I understand about centstar is that it requires quite a few spells to make it work. Most notably against Tyranids on Turn 1 is Gate, Perfect Timing, and Invisibility. We don't have enough dice to shut them down, but we do have enough dice to make them insecure about those spells, and to possibly deny one. If they fail one, or we deny one, then deploying the flyrants is the way to go. But with my LVO list, if I reserve flyrants vs Centstar, I should also reserve my Barbed Heirodule. With a 5 Flyrant list, if you reserve one, you should reserve them all. There just isn't that much left in most tyranid lists to deploy, and the idea of being without a majority of your offense for up to 1/2 of the game means your ability to kill the scoring units is greatly diminished.

Ok so for ultra competitive tournaments with PentaTyrant lists the "base" for my list goes like so:

Leviathan
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Malanthrope

CAD
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Bastion + Comms



This very tight base build leaves 335 points left over. I'm debating on putting in one of the combinations below...

2x Mawloc
1x Dakkafex + 1x Tyrannocyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers
2x Seperate Broods of Dakkafex on foot
1x Mawloc and a bunch of Lictors
1x Tyrannofex (the shooty one) + Tyrannotcyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers


What do you guys think is my most optimal option for a good TAC? (This is based off the models I own) I've been debating going all out air and putting in a Crone + Harpy but I don't own those right now and don't think they are worth... MAYBE the Crone...

 syypher wrote:
Ok so for ultra competitive tournaments with PentaTyrant lists the "base" for my list goes like so:

Leviathan
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Malanthrope

CAD
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Bastion + Comms



This very tight base build leaves 335 points left over. I'm debating on putting in one of the combinations below...

2x Mawloc
1x Dakkafex + 1x Tyrannocyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers
2x Seperate Broods of Dakkafex on foot
1x Mawloc and a bunch of Lictors
1x Tyrannofex (the shooty one) + Tyrannotcyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers


What do you guys think is my most optimal option for a good TAC? (This is based off the models I own) I've been debating going all out air and putting in a Crone + Harpy but I don't own those right now and don't think they are worth... MAYBE the Crone...

You could swap out 2 units of Mucoloids for Rippers. Then add in a crone and 2 units of 10 Gargoyles/1 unit of 20?

 jy2 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
For the formation, you pick the Warlord trait from the BRB. You cannot pick it from a Detachment that it isn't a part of. So for example, Leviathan + Skyblight. The Flyrant in the Skyblight formation cannot pick a Leviathan Warlord trait. It can only pick from the traits from the BRB.

Are you sure? I'm looking at the Warlord Traits table in the Leviathan book and it says a Tyranid Warlord maychoose to roll on the table, right, instead of the BRB or Codex. Am I missing something here?

Also I voted Tyranids but not Pentyrant, I personally think Skyblight would be better due to respawn OS troops. Pentyrant is still strong, so I wouldn't fault you for choosing it.

Can you quote to me what it says under the Warlord Traits in the Leviathan book. The online copy that I have is not quite so clear.

That picture should be clear enough but holla if it's not I don't have an e-copy to compare it however, so I can't confirm whether they are the same.

EDIT: Kinda of a big letdown that you can't enlarge it...lemme try again.

 jy2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

Pertruabo wrote:
quick question guys
I it possible to field a full army of genestealers?

I wrote this list once, never yet got round to trying it out..

Leviathan Detachment

Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers
Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers
Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers

Malonthrope

5 x Genestealers, Broodlord
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

Manafactorum Genestealer formation

5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

Wow...that actually looks super-scary and super-fun at the same time!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

@jy2 I'll get a picture of my physical copy for you when I get chance, although I suspect there may be differences between the e-copy and physical book.

Thanks!

3 Flying Deadly Tyrants and army of genestealers???
I love this list,and guys any book recommendations for rules? I only got the Tyranid Codex

You'll want the grab Shield of Baal: Leviathan for the HiveFleet Detachment (that let's you run 3 Flyrants in a detachment.

You'll also want the Rise of Leviathan Dataslates on Black Library, although I can't recall which one has the Genestealer formation in (probably no.1 if it follows a fluffy typical invasion of a planet by Nids). If someone could confirm that would be great.

tag8833 wrote:
[Would you rather count on making a 2+ cover save or a 3+ reserve Roll?

Well if the lynx rolls a 6, then you get nothing, and are just removed form the table. I would rather have a 3++ reserve roll then a 2+ cover save with a 1/6th chance not of not getting the chance to make the save. IMO you beat the odds by never playing them, especially when you don't have too. It also depends on which lvo mission you are playing, and what the deployment type is.

tag8833 wrote:
The thing I understand about centstar is that it requires quite a few spells to make it work. Most notably against Tyranids on Turn 1 is Gate, Perfect Timing, and Invisibility. We don't have enough dice to shut them down, but we do have enough dice to make them insecure about those spells, and to possibly deny one. If they fail one, or we deny one, then deploying the flyrants is the way to go. But with my LVO list, if I reserve flyrants vs Centstar, I should also reserve my Barbed Heirodule. With a 5 Flyrant list, if you reserve one, you should reserve them all. There just isn't that much left in most tyranid lists to deploy, and the idea of being without a majority of your offense for up to 1/2 of the game means your ability to kill the scoring units is greatly diminished.

A few things

When it comes to killing flyrants on the ground, all sent star needs if perfect timing, and they will usually chuck enough dice off to make it work. It is very very hard to stop a specific power when the player who's psy phase it is wants it to go off. I also agree that you should reserve the barbed hierodule if you are reserving the flyrants, just deploy a bunch of spore mine units on the field around a coms imo.

As far as the 5 flyrant list goes, it is in my humblest opinion that it just simply doesn't work. We have tested it out on the east coast and have been less then impressed with the results, especially in the lvo format. The lack of obsec, and flyrants having to land when claiming objectives puts you in a very very difficult spot when you have to go first. I think it will do fine vs masses, but vs skilled opponents who are prepared for it, the five flyrant list is going to struggle.

 krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
[Would you rather count on making a 2+ cover save or a 3+ reserve Roll?

Well if the lynx rolls a 6, then you get nothing, and are just removed form the table. I would rather have a 3++ reserve roll then a 2+ cover save with a 1/6th chance not of not getting the chance to make the save.

Ah, yes, I see. I've played a Lynx several times (6-8), and that has never come up, I always thought I would get a cover save yet, but I see that you are correct.

Do you think that giving up 1-3 turns of offense you still have a chance to beat an Eldar list with all of their super fast scoring? Because I'm a tad iffy on that. I usually need ever bit of offense to thin them down in time for the end game.

 krootman. wrote:
When it comes to killing flyrants on the ground, all sent star needs if perfect timing, and they will usually chuck enough dice off to make it work. It is very very hard to stop a specific power when the player who's psy phase it is wants it to go off. I also agree that you should reserve the barbed hierodule if you are reserving the flyrants, just deploy a bunch of spore mine units on the field around a coms imo.

For turn 1 they need gate as well if you deploy right. Grav only shoots 24", and if they give up invis for Perfect timing, even with 1 flyrant down, you should have enough firepower left to neuter the star pretty effectively on turn 2.

tag8833 wrote:
. Ah, yes, I see. I've played a Lynx several times (6-8), and that has never come up, I always thought I would get a cover save yet, but I see that you are correct. Do you think that giving up 1-3 turns of offense you still have a chance to beat an Eldar list with all of their super fast scoring? Because I'm a tad iffy on that. I usually need ever bit of offense to thin them down in time for the end game.

.So to answer your question I think there are too many variables in play to make a definitive yes or no call. It depends on the rest of his build, and who went first, how many flyrants you have, the mission etc. Its one of those things choices you have to make on the fly.

tag8833 wrote:
For turn 1 they need gate as well if you deploy right. Grav only shoots 24", and if they give up invis for Perfect timing, even with 1 flyrant down, you should have enough firepower left to neuter the star pretty effectively on turn 2.

I also dont think you worry about shooting the cent star , until all the obsec units are dead.

He can still kill 2 a turn with the onmiscope with the right powers. If I was running 3, id prob start them all in reserve vs the cent star, just start spore mines on the table with the bastion and coms, get them on the board flying and go to town killing his obsec.

Xyptc wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
It warms my heart to see people try to make Stealers work. I have been thinking about HyperToxic Node a lot recently, maybe the big swarm of Venos could make Stealers work...

So, Std CAD, 5 or 6 Broods of Stealers, Hypertoxic, maybe double out each Brood of Veno...it's so crazy, it just might work.

Off the top of my head...

HQ: Winged Dakka'rant, Electro
HQ: as above

Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor

Troops: Stealers, x5
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above
Troops: as above

Heavy: Mawloc
Heavy: Mawloc

HyperToxic Node?

This actually looks promising...I'll scatch around on it for a while..

The problem with small broods of 'stealers is that it is so easy to render a brood useless after a couple of casualties. In small groups they are amazing for claiming objectives and being off-putting (and going to ground in ruins for a 3+ cover save is often a shock for opponents), but they rarely seem to to much heavy lifting in such small numbers. If you want Genestealers to carry the day in a more aggressive manner I really think you need to start looking into several huge broods, and if you're going down that route you're probably better off running a tidal wave of Raveners or Shrikes.

Genestealers have class though, and even after 20 years (which aside from a small window in 4th is when they were last truly lethal) they still creep opponents out enormously.

Valid points, but I don't expect the Stealers to do any heavy lifting, they are non IB Infiltating Objective Secured Troops, who can mix it up with any enemy Troops fool enough to get to close. The killing power is the Winged Dakka'rants, and Twin Mawlocs. Lictor spam, and three Broods of Venos provide extra force multiplier effects as well.

At 70 per, Stealer Broods are a reasonably cheap choice. And the psychological pressure that 5+ infiltrating Stealer Broods, combined with multiple Lictors is fairly strong. Add in twin Mawlocs, and you have Threat Overload. Considering that the Winged Tyrants are the priority targets, even the Toxicrene becomes fairly durable. (units that don't get shot at, don't take injuries)

Once I get this all worked out, I'll post what I come up with....

Frozocrone wrote:You'll want the grab Shield of Baal: Leviathan for the HiveFleet Detachment (that let's you run 3 Flyrants in a detachment.

You'll also want the Rise of Leviathan Dataslates on Black Library, although I can't recall which one has the Genestealer formation in (probably no.1 if it follows a fluffy typical invasion of a planet by Nids). If someone could confirm that would be great.

Yeah all the Genestealer formations are in Rising Leviathan 1. Also I just went through my 'Nid gribblies. I never realized I had 60 genestealers lol. I'm definitely going to try out a MSU 'Stealer Overload list soon. Probably with Manufactorum Genestealers to make my opponent scared of ruins, another 6-7 squads, 3 Flyrants, and maybe enough points to squeeze in a mawloc or a Dakkafex in a pod. Sounds like a lot of fun.

krootman. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
[Would you rather count on making a 2+ cover save or a 3+ reserve Roll?

Well if the lynx rolls a 6, then you get nothing, and are just removed form the table. I would rather have a 3++ reserve roll then a 2+ cover save with a 1/6th chance not of not getting the chance to make the save. IMO you beat the odds by never playing them, especially when you don't have too. It also depends on which lvo mission you are playing, and what the deployment type is.

tag8833 wrote:
The thing I understand about centstar is that it requires quite a few spells to make it work. Most notably against Tyranids on Turn 1 is Gate, Perfect Timing, and Invisibility. We don't have enough dice to shut them down, but we do have enough dice to make them insecure about those spells, and to possibly deny one. If they fail one, or we deny one, then deploying the flyrants is the way to go. But with my LVO list, if I reserve flyrants vs Centstar, I should also reserve my Barbed Heirodule. With a 5 Flyrant list, if you reserve one, you should reserve them all. There just isn't that much left in most tyranid lists to deploy, and the idea of being without a majority of your offense for up to 1/2 of the game means your ability to kill the scoring units is greatly diminished.

A few things

When it comes to killing flyrants on the ground, all sent star needs if perfect timing, and they will usually chuck enough dice off to make it work. It is very very hard to stop a specific power when the player who's psy phase it is wants it to go off. I also agree that you should reserve the barbed hierodule if you are reserving the flyrants, just deploy a bunch of spore mine units on the field around a coms imo.

As far as the 5 flyrant list goes, it is in my humblest opinion that it just simply doesn't work. We have tested it out on the east coast and have been less then impressed with the results, especially in the lvo format. The lack of obsec, and flyrants having to land when claiming objectives puts you in a very very difficult spot when you have to go first. I think it will do fine vs masses, but vs skilled opponents who are prepared for it, the five flyrant list is going to struggle.

Most CentStar builds I see generally hover around 12 WC and even then they usually only have about 9 on the table turn 1 since they want their GK troops off the board. Granted, they could start on the board for maximum charges, so lets consider it 12. CentStars need Gate AND Perfect Timing if they are going to kill Flyrants on turn 1. And, well, At first I was going to say that Nids stand a pretty good chance of denying at least one of those, but then I did the math and it doesn't look so. 5 Flyrants has a *decent* chance depending on how many Warp Charges the CentStar starts on the table, and how many extra are rolled. Against 4 though it seems like the CentStar would be able to pretty easily get off Gate and Perfect Timing as long as they split their WC relatively evenly between the two powers. That said you might be able to punish the CentStar if it got greedy and went for Invis as well. Still against a smart player (and it's always best to assume your opponent is smart) it *might* be better to start in reserve. Most CentStars will have their ObSec outflanking, deep striking, or in a Storm Raven anyway. Although, if the CentStar does have all of its troops in reserve, then it has likely evened the WC pool and you are more likely to be able to deny either Gate or Perfet Timing. I'm kinda going with my gut on this one, but I'd say if the CentStar deploys equal or less WC than you have, start on the board. If they deploy more WC than you can, start off the board.

Has someone here played against the newcrons? While they lost some punch, they make for it with being incredibly tough.

 krootman. wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
So questions in regards to Nids, Fortifications, and come the apocalypse allies. Say you took a Tau CAD that included a Bastion and then a leviathan detachment that included Flyrants and a Malanthrope.

During deployment, would you be able to deploy the Malanthrope inside the Bastion? Or would the tyranid units need to be deployed at least 12" away from the bastion?

it depends which source the bastion was bought from.

Not sure I follow. I believe the rules for the bastion are only found in Stronghold Assault. Leviathan can't purchase a fortification, so I would have to purchase it as part of the Tau CAD.

Tyran wrote:Has someone here played against the newcrons? While they lost some punch, they make for it with being incredibly tough.

I have been playing in a silly escalation league, and I can tell you this... Guants do nothing to wraiths now lol.

wyomingfox wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
So questions in regards to Nids, Fortifications, and come the apocalypse allies. Say you took a Tau CAD that included a Bastion and then a leviathan detachment that included Flyrants and a Malanthrope.

During deployment, would you be able to deploy the Malanthrope inside the Bastion? Or would the tyranid units need to be deployed at least 12" away from the bastion?

it depends which source the bastion was bought from.

Not sure I follow. I believe the rules for the bastion are only found in Stronghold Assault. Leviathan can't purchase a fortification, so I would have to purchase it as part of the Tau CAD.

Yes, but a fortification is not considered part of a faction. So you buy it for the tau cad, what ever faction you deploy on or next to it, counts as controlling it.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 syypher wrote:
Ok so for ultra competitive tournaments with PentaTyrant lists the "base" for my list goes like so:

Leviathan
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Malanthrope

CAD
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Bastion + Comms



This very tight base build leaves 335 points left over. I'm debating on putting in one of the combinations below...

2x Mawloc
1x Dakkafex + 1x Tyrannocyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers
2x Seperate Broods of Dakkafex on foot
1x Mawloc and a bunch of Lictors
1x Tyrannofex (the shooty one) + Tyrannotcyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers


What do you guys think is my most optimal option for a good TAC? (This is based off the models I own) I've been debating going all out air and putting in a Crone + Harpy but I don't own those right now and don't think they are worth... MAYBE the Crone...

You could swap out 2 units of Mucoloids for Rippers. Then add in a crone and 2 units of 10 Gargoyles/1 unit of 20?

Hmmm not sure if I need a crone. Is that what my base 5 flyrant list looks like is it's weaknesses? If so I'll do a crone I'm not as experienced with Nids as most of yall to be able to quickly see the weaknesses of my list yet...

 Tyran wrote:
Has someone here played against the newcrons? While they lost some punch, they make for it with being incredibly tough.

While I haven't played against the new necrons yet with my Tyranids, I have been playing the new necrons. Here are some of my observations.

Decurion Necrons are much, much tougher to kill, especially with shooting. Our best chances to kill them is to try to sweep them in combat. Unfortunately, not a whole lot of people play assault nids currently (at least not competitively).

However, even assault is not reliable, especially if he is running a generic Catacomb Command Barge. They allow all units within 12" to re-roll Morale.

Flyrants are still our best weapon against them. Right now, with the nerf to Tesla, Necrons will have more problems dealing with flyers than they used to. Thus, our flyrants just became harder for them to take down and in addition, our flyrants have the Volume-of-Fire (VoF) necessary to deal with most of the Necron units.

Necron wraiths are f*cking bad-a$$. Fortunately, flyrants are a solution to them as well. Otherwise, the best we can do is to tarpit them with gribblies. Wraiths will be a problem unit for us.

If you see a Necron spider along with those wraiths, kill it before you do the wraiths. The sonovab*tch is the secret to making the wraiths nigh invincible. Take it out and the wraiths will lose their Reanimation Protocols.

Necron shooting will still have problems against 2+ cover, so make sure you have all your important units either flying or within malan/venomthrope range (and preferably ruins as well), especially if they are running Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers. They only have 1 unit that can ignore cover, the tomb blades, but those units either carry S5 AP4 guns or S6 AP5 blasts.

The Newcrons is an army of Fast Attack. Most of their best units and most of their offense will be from the Fast Attack slots - wraiths, tomb blades, destroyers/heavy destroyers. But be careful with target priority. Spend too much time killing them and you may find Necron troops all over the objectives when the game ends.

Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers are very good (and very annoying!). They are like Tau Crisis suits now, being able to shoot and then jump away. Moreover, they are very deadly with their shooting. If the Necron player runs the Destroyer Cult formation, basically, all the units in there gets to re-roll failed To Wound/Armor Pen rolls. Thus, make sure your ground MC's always have some type of cover against them.

IMO, the new Necrons might not be as powerful as they were previously (with the old school Mindshackles and cheap flyers/annibarges), but they still are pretty good, probably even better than Tyranids when they were first released last edition. They've become incredibly durable, much more than before. HOWEVER, our triple-flyrant builds can and will still give them a lot of problems. Combine that with our high Toughness MC's and cover shenanigans and I think that our bugs can definitely compete with the new Necrons.

 syypher wrote:

Spoiler:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 syypher wrote:
Ok so for ultra competitive tournaments with PentaTyrant lists the "base" for my list goes like so:

Leviathan
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Malanthrope

CAD
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Flyrant (eGrubs, TL Devs)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Rippers (Deep Strike)
Bastion + Comms



This very tight base build leaves 335 points left over. I'm debating on putting in one of the combinations below...

2x Mawloc
1x Dakkafex + 1x Tyrannocyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers
2x Seperate Broods of Dakkafex on foot
1x Mawloc and a bunch of Lictors
1x Tyrannofex (the shooty one) + Tyrannotcyte + Gargs to max or more Rippers


What do you guys think is my most optimal option for a good TAC? (This is based off the models I own) I've been debating going all out air and putting in a Crone + Harpy but I don't own those right now and don't think they are worth... MAYBE the Crone...

You could swap out 2 units of Mucoloids for Rippers. Then add in a crone and 2 units of 10 Gargoyles/1 unit of 20?

Hmmm not sure if I need a crone. Is that what my base 5 flyrant list looks like is it's weaknesses? If so I'll do a crone I'm not as experienced with Nids as most of yall to be able to quickly see the weaknesses of my list yet...

You need more ground support, especially if you play to run it in competitive play. Most tournaments will use a variation of Maelstrom objectives and standard Eternal War missions (i.e. BAO/LVO format). With Pentyrants and mucolids, you need ground units to score these objectives so that your flyrants don't have to land.

As an example, check out my 7th Edition Tyranid battle reports (the link in my signature).

Eldercaveman wrote:

Pertruabo wrote:
quick question guys
I it possible to field a full army of genestealers?

I wrote this list once, never yet got round to trying it out..

Leviathan Detachment

Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers
Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers
Flyrant, Electro grubs, devourers

Malonthrope

5 x Genestealers, Broodlord
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

Manafactorum Genestealer formation

5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

So I'm finally gonna play pure 'Nids today for the first time in a long time, and I'm going to run something similar to this at 1500. I'm playing Eldar, so I don't expect many 'stealers to live but hopefully they are at least really annoying.

My list:

(I could be running 3 Flyrants, but I decided to be nice)

Flyrant: Devs, EGrubs
Flyrant: Devs, EGrubs

Vope
Zope
Zope

5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

Dakkafex
Tyrranocyte w/ Barbed Strangler? Venom Cannon? (Which do you prefer?)

Manufactorum Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers

 jy2 wrote:

Necron wraiths are f*cking bad-a$$. Fortunately, flyrants are a solution to them as well. Otherwise, the best we can do is to tarpit them with gribblies. Wraiths will be a problem unit for us.

I think we do have a fairly easy solution for them in the form of Toxin Sac-equipped Hormagaunts. A brood of 30 TS Hormies costs the exact same amount of points as a full squad of 6 Wraiths and the gaunts swing at the same time as ones with Whip Coils (which cost more) while having the volume of attacks needed to force saves. Maybe not exactly a stand out choice now, but there is no shortage of other viable targets for them in the current meta at least. Biggest thing is they need target saturation with other gaunts to avoid getting singled out, which could be difficult given the current default 'nid build... Maybe a resurgence of Skyblight to add some respawning Gargoyle swarms to the mix?

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Necron wraiths are f*cking bad-a$$. Fortunately, flyrants are a solution to them as well. Otherwise, the best we can do is to tarpit them with gribblies. Wraiths will be a problem unit for us.

I think we do have a fairly easy solution for them in the form of Toxin Sac-equipped Hormagaunts. A brood of 30 TS Hormies costs the exact same amount of points as a full squad of 6 Wraiths and the gaunts swing at the same time as ones with Whip Coils (which cost more) while having the volume of attacks needed to force saves. Maybe not exactly a stand out choice now, but there is no shortage of other viable targets for them in the current meta at least. Biggest thing is they need target saturation with other gaunts to avoid getting singled out, which could be difficult given the current default 'nid build... Maybe a resurgence of Skyblight to add some respawning Gargoyle swarms to the mix?

Hormagants are decent. However, a few issues exist:

1. How many players actually take that many hormagants - and with TS - in their TAC lists? Personally, I haven't seen very many.

2. Wraiths are beasts now, which means they are super-fast. They should be able to get the charge off against hormagants unless you use another unit to screen out those hormagants.

3. Whip coils makes them I5. Wraithflight means they treat all terrain as Open Ground. Thus, no Initiative penalty on the charge, even against a unit in terrain.

30 hormagants may be able to hold the wraiths in for a 3-4 assault phases, but don't expect them to win out.

What's more scary is that competitive Necron lists might run from 12-18 of those wraiths!

Skyblight is always a good option and against any army. You can never go wrong with more FMC's and respawning ObSec units.

 jy2 wrote:

Hormagants are decent. However, a few issues exist:

1. How many players actually take that many hormagants - and with TS - in their TAC lists? Personally, I haven't seen very many.

2. Wraiths are beasts now, which means they are super-fast. They should be able to get the charge off against hormagants unless you use another unit to screen out those hormagants.

3. Whip coils makes them I5. Wraithflight means they treat all terrain as Open Ground. Thus, no Initiative penalty on the charge, even against a unit in terrain.

1. Not many at the moment, but then again there hasn't really been a pressing need for them up until this point as most of the major tournament threats have been mechanized foes rather than high toughness ones. There is also the matter of their being a hoard unit, which is fairly uncommon in competitive lists anyway due to the time constraints.

2./3. Neither is really a problem. Hormagaunts are I5 themselves so at best the Whip Coils allow Wraiths to swing at the same time. They also don't really need to get the charge, as the goal is to tarpit the Wraiths anyway while thinning them out.

 jy2 wrote:

30 hormagants may be able to hold the wraiths in for a 3-4 assault phases, but don't expect them to win out.

As a bit of math, if at least half the brood can attack they should inflict ~5 unsaved wounds before reanimation protocols (~3 with reanimation protocols). Assuming the wraiths charged and had not taken losses on the way in, their returning blows should in turn only do ~10 wounds (13 with whip coils to get their swings in). The Hormagaunts then presumably keep them locked down thanks to the availability of fearless and more or less repeat for another round or two until depleted or the Wraiths are destroyed. (in the unlikely event that the entire brood can attack, they should do about 10 unsaved wounds before reanimation protocols)

This also doesn't take into account additional debilitating effects such as Paroxysm or Blinding Venom which could swing the battle more in favor of the gaunts.

Random modeling question for Nids... if I'm taking a Dakkafex with both Scything sets replaced with TL Devourers w/ BLW... and I have 2x arms converted to be a TL Devourer each... what do I do with the other 2 arm slots on my Carnifex? o_o Considering all the Tournaments are WYSIWYG.

If I put more of those arms (The FW ones) in those slots then that would mean I have 4x TL Devourers w/ BLW.

Since a "set" of scything claws is being replaced with 1 TL Devourer w/ BLW it only takes up one of the 4 arm slots the Carnifex has.

What to do? I'm confused..