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Morality is all about telling ourselves a story about a given event or fact. I'd imagine that if someone is really invested in the piracy is bad story, and then they play in a game with pirated figures, they'd become a character in their story. They'd then have to tell themselves a story about their own moral failure.

I wouldn't care myself. Heck, +props of said recasts were painted up nicely. The only thing I wouldn't play against are sad looking proxies (especially where it can become an issue to identify which is what). Had one guy wanted to play a game as GK…but he didn't have any GK models. Just bases with pennies and nickels glued to them…. Feth that….

Don't care. I own recasts and if you set them next to a genuine produce you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Funny but one forgeworld item has been commented on several times regarding how rare it is to see one so nicely cast by forgeworld and I must have used a lot of greenstuff and time to clean it up. Yeah, no.

Material-wise, the stuff out of China has become great; I wish Mantic would have used their "restic" mix instead of the crap that I got with my Deadzone and KoW kickstarters, almost zero cleanup, not brittle and takes all types of glues.

One of these things is not like the other... (pardon the crap paint, it's just I'm indifferent when I paint).

 robam45 wrote:
I've yet to see anyone address the question that if it's simply about morality then would you deny a game to someone who pirates music or doesn't pay their child support on time?

Are you assuming that someone who finds one particular thing to be immoral will automatically find everything you find immoral to be equally immoral?

I mean, I understand that some are more inclined to see piracy as wrong but that doesn't explain why they won't play a game with someone.

Sure it does. Allowing someone to use pirated models is encouraging the purchase of pirated models. People wouldn't buy them if they knew they weren't going to be able to use them. So for someone strongly opposed to the practice, refusing to let people use them makes perfect sense.

 insaniak wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Still wondering- does anyone think that the reproducing, and/or distributing for free use of abandoned material is immoral/stealing?

.
I don't think it's stealing because I don't think IP infringement is stealing. They're different offenses.


I do think there's a moral grey area still with copying things that are no longer available. On the one hand, the company that owns the IP has chosen not to do anything with it, and so they're (arguably) not losing any income as a result (I say arguably because it could be argued that the guy casting out of production Squats in his basement might, if that were not an option, be buying current models instead.)... but on the other hand, it should be the right of the company that owns the IP to determine whether or not people have access to that IP. In other words, if they choose to not make a given product available, you have no intrinsic right to it... it's their choice as the owner of the product to not sell it to you.

So if people started making Squats, GW couldn't do anything bout it because they don't make the minis no more for them? Hmmm.... I wonder if people started making squats, if that would get GW to restart making Squats back again.

If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.

 SHUPPET wrote:
If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.

Was that aimed at someone in particular?

Nobody at all in particular, not even sure if it's been said in a few pages. Just something to consider for anyone that it applies to

 agnosto wrote:
Don't care. I own recasts and if you set them next to a genuine produce you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Funny but one forgeworld item has been commented on several times regarding how rare it is to see one so nicely cast by forgeworld and I must have used a lot of greenstuff and time to clean it up. Yeah, no.

Material-wise, the stuff out of China has become great; I wish Mantic would have used their "restic" mix instead of the crap that I got with my Deadzone and KoW kickstarters, almost zero cleanup, not brittle and takes all types of glues.

One of these things is not like the other... (pardon the crap paint, it's just I'm indifferent when I paint).

man that white one is stunning. Good job. I never could paint white well.

I wouldn't care except under one circumstance and that's store play. I regrettably only have a single store in my area and it's a gw official location. If you play there its wysiwyg and recasts are barred from play or submission to contests or our cabinet of community painting submissions.

(each submission/ accusation of fielding a recast is scrutinized by our store owner to the point of madness)

So beyond that I wouldn't have issues with it. Especially if buying the real Rick James would set you back mega bucks.

Take for example the 2007 dark angels metal battlebox company master. On eBay he fetches a mighty penny. As a recast he costs all of 35 bucks after shipping. That's a wayyyyyy more reasonable price if you ask me.

 SHUPPET wrote:
If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.

I'll bite...

As a rule, I don't pirate anything. My iPhone is full of music with their cover art, either ripped from a cd purchase, or purchased online. I don't download movies, and if don't go to people's house to watch movies that they have obtained illegally.

With that said, I'm sure that I HAVE watched illegal movies. I'm sure that I have played against copies, I'm sure I have listened to pirated music, but if I know about it, I won't. It actually pusses my friends off quite a bit. I'm the old man party pooper.

Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach. Additionally, I was this way long before I had my daughter, but having her definitely made me think carefully about even everyday decisions.

For me, if I know my opponent is playing with recasts, I wouldn't play him. I wouldn't be a jerk about it any more than to say no, and provide the reasoning should he ask, but I wouldn't play. I don't see this as a terrible thing, and I struggle to see where the ambiguity comes from.

Maybe because I'm old, I see the world differently, or see things more black and white than they really should be in this day and age, but I have always been the buy the book kind of guy. I have never cheated on my taxes, I have never purchased a firearm illegally, I have never knowingly purchased pirated software or media, I have never knowingly stolen property from another, and don't intend to, I have never cheated on an insurance claim.

Maybe I'm just a complete wuss, or just old fashioned, and believe me, this strict viewpoint sucks sometimes. I hate being the last one to get the war room app with all the factions in it because I won't 'break my phone or tablet. I hate being the last one to see the cool new movie everyone is quoting, and I hate to not hear the awesome hidden track on an album until I can order and get the vinyl, but it's a moral decision and I'll stand to that.

I certainly understand that I have been an unknowing hypocrite from time to time, and I don't hold others outside of my house to my standards, what people do with their time is their prerogative, but if I know, I won't play, despite my burning rage of a thousand collapsing supernovas with games workshop.

The recasts that I have seen for sale are still very pricey. Sure, they are cheaper than GW or in the store, but not by that much. You are basically handing over a lot of money to . . . counterfeiters in China!

Now, this is the thing. If you choose to buy counterfeit Chinese recasts you are actively supporting illegal business practices and hurting your domestic economy. If you live in Europe or America or Canada, your economy is effectively in a state of economic war with China.

So yeah, that little bit of money that you are saving for yourself is helping some scoundrels overseas (who don't abide by international trading regulations) to undermine legitimate international business practices. Buy from legitimate international sources. Or don't complain when your job gets sent overseas.

This is big damage. This is like taking whole barrels of oil and dumping it into the ocean kind of damage and proclaiming "F U dolphins".

I mean if you are so fed up with GW that they will drive you to pour money into illegal practices in China then quit 40k!

And if you are some anarchist juvenile twit who doesn't care about these things and only about your narrow personal needs, then grow the feth up.

But having said that I will not refuse to play someone who uses recasts since I respect that that is their personal business, but I will state that recasts are definitely the opposite of pimp and should be ridiculed whenever spotted. If the community defines pimpness as totally legit then that will be enough to curtail this counterfeit bs.

 SHUPPET wrote:
If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.

"Welcome to my binary little world."

I wouldn't buy it, and playing against it would be dependent.

I'd be against anyone turning up with a crap load of FW tanks and models, better cast or not, if I can pay full price to it own the stuff, then you can save an extra week or two and afford the difference in price and learn how to fill gaps and make an effort, I'd rather play against a half decent scratch built.

However playing against squads and armies with insane price tags such as Sisters of Battle and Legion of the Damned I'd be fine with on the basis that GW should produce them as "affordable" multi part plastic, no Ten Man unit should cost what they do unless cast in platinum. And this would only be at home gaming level, not store/tournaments.

Again I still wouldn't buy them re-cast, so I'll just not buy them at all =)

Now, this is the thing. If you choose to buy counterfeit Chinese recasts you are actively supporting illegal business practices and hurting your domestic economy. If you live in Europe or America or Canada, your economy is effectively in a state of economic war with China.

How I don't see Polish recasters or Polish model studios having problems with Russian or Chiness recasters. What is better with Russians you can pay on delivery , which for me is beyond awesome , as it gives me access to models I would not be able to normaly get or which I would have to buy full price at GW Warsaw , what considering the trip from Krakow and back would double the cost of those models.

Sc077y wrote:


Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach.

Would it not be better to raise a child to "love" the god of your new testament of her own volition - than to live in dread of the one of the old?

 chromedog wrote:

Sc077y wrote:


Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach.

Would it not be better to raise a child to "love" the god of your new testament of her own volition - than to live in dread of the one of the old?

Oooh, the thread just hit popcorn time!

 P4Painting wrote:
if I can pay full price to it own the stuff, then you can save an extra week or two and afford the difference in price and learn how to fill gaps and make an effort, I'd rather play against a half decent scratch built.

lol ok then well if I can pay 50% higher prices than you because that was the RRP they choose to sell it at over here, you can either submit a donation to GW to match the prices I've had to pay, or I'll just have a tantrum and pack up all my models because you didn't spend as much as me


Seriously, the moralistic crowd I can understand. The ones who do it because they don't like people spending less money than them to get in however, I must say, I'd be glad to avoid playing you. The game is about fun and competition , not about who payed the largest entry fee or can afford the biggest army. If this is what 40k is to you I genuinely feel sorry for you. Although GW is the perfect conduit for this mentality I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

Sc077y wrote:


Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach.

Would it not be better to raise a child to "love" the god of your new testament of her own volition - than to live in dread of the one of the old?

Oooh, the thread just hit popcorn time!

Oh yes he did!

Noir wrote:

 Farseer Pef wrote:
Dipping slightly into the theft argument:
Re-cast robs the IP holder of the sales he could have had if re-cast wasn't done.

On topic:
GW is strangling the hobby with their price points (new Mek Guns are 18 points base, but cost $45 each...). They have driven players to this issue. I will not hesitate if asked to play against them.

If they returned to the old days of better pricing (2000 point army costing less than $300), I would frown on re-casting.

Bold part, while that is a symptom that not really the problem with their price, it is the cost to produce the item vs sell cost. Unlike other company that sell based on production cost, GW base their cost on "what we boost in power" worse part they don't even drop the price when the nerf the unit the made better to up the price. The don't even hide it in a once a year increase anymore, now it whenever they feel like it..

what yearly price rises?
im in aus and i havent seen a yearly price rise in many years.....

also $$ cost to how good in game? WHAT? my CSM landraider wants a chat, so do my mutilators infact..

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.

"Welcome to my binary little world."

I don't understand the difference between participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question, and participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question.

Actually sounds pretty spot on to me.

I honestly wouldn't care at all. If it was a GW recast I'd see it as justice, seeing how they rip people off.

Raven911 wrote:

man that white one is stunning. Good job. I never could paint white well.

Thanks but I can take zero credit. I used Army Painter Skeleton Bone for it and Platemail for the other bits.

Strange and squirrely places this is going.

Play against someone using recast models? Sure, why not?
If an alternative material other than the classic grey plastic was used, it at least guarantees the models are primed!

To boycott playing a game with someone who's morals may not align with my own would be "forcing my views on others".
I suppose it is a means of not rewarding bad behavior but still seems awfully petty.
At the very least, play your best game and table them, that will teach them for being such heretics!

My moral compass is: If you truly like a "work" someone has made and want to see future creations from that "artist": buy it from them (out of self-interest if makes sense).
If you really do not care either way, any old "stand-in" will do.
At least some thought on the degree of "harm" inflicted on the original creator should be made.

I do long for a binary world... China does not have much for copyright laws so if it sells, they will make it (not illegal there! no sin, at least if you lived there!)
For mail-order items my money would not contribute much of anything to North America since it is primarily a UK product.
Copyright was intended as a means to allow product to be changed over for public use after the original developer made their money, not the "forever" they keep trying to make it now. Just how much should an original work be allowed to continue to make large profits after the original costs had long been paid for?

The moral high ground on this particular topic is dubious in my eyes.

 daedalus wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.

"Welcome to my binary little world."

I don't understand the difference between participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question, and participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question.

Actually sounds pretty spot on to me.

only if you take the word "participating" in its most lax sense. Other people here seem to be able to grasp the gradations of the morality in questionr, it's not too hard.

Few people have said they'd refuse to play with someone who uses recasts, outright.
Many people, including me, have said they have a problem with the idea of recasts - perhaps because it tends to encourage criminal behaviour, IP theft, penalises the store, or threatens to cut off supply of new designs - but would probably/possibly play with the oppo depending on his/her behaviour. .

Morality is rarely binary; it certainly isn't in law. We can spot the gradations in killing someone - manslaughter, murder, premeditated murder, concealment of body, all these things attract varying opprobrium and varying sentences.

Otherwise you'll be saying that opening a factory and churning out millions of counterfeits, channeling the money into other gang activities, would be exactly the same as listening to a download in someone else's car. And no-one would be so stupid as to allege that.... would they?

Sc077y wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.

I'll bite...

As a rule, I don't pirate anything. My iPhone is full of music with their cover art, either ripped from a cd purchase, or purchased online. I don't download movies, and if don't go to people's house to watch movies that they have obtained illegally.

With that said, I'm sure that I HAVE watched illegal movies. I'm sure that I have played against copies, I'm sure I have listened to pirated music, but if I know about it, I won't. It actually pusses my friends off quite a bit. I'm the old man party pooper.

Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach. Additionally, I was this way long before I had my daughter, but having her definitely made me think carefully about even everyday decisions.

For me, if I know my opponent is playing with recasts, I wouldn't play him. I wouldn't be a jerk about it any more than to say no, and provide the reasoning should he ask, but I wouldn't play. I don't see this as a terrible thing, and I struggle to see where the ambiguity comes from.

Maybe because I'm old, I see the world differently, or see things more black and white than they really should be in this day and age, but I have always been the buy the book kind of guy. I have never cheated on my taxes, I have never purchased a firearm illegally, I have never knowingly purchased pirated software or media, I have never knowingly stolen property from another, and don't intend to, I have never cheated on an insurance claim.

Maybe I'm just a complete wuss, or just old fashioned, and believe me, this strict viewpoint sucks sometimes. I hate being the last one to get the war room app with all the factions in it because I won't 'break my phone or tablet. I hate being the last one to see the cool new movie everyone is quoting, and I hate to not hear the awesome hidden track on an album until I can order and get the vinyl, but it's a moral decision and I'll stand to that.

I certainly understand that I have been an unknowing hypocrite from time to time, and I don't hold others outside of my house to my standards, what people do with their time is their prerogative, but if I know, I won't play, despite my burning rage of a thousand collapsing supernovas with games workshop.

Thanks for this. I agree with you 100%. My daugthers are 25 and 17 and understands these rules. The older one would lose her license to work if caught so why do it to save pennies. But as a family we have very little debt and do not expect the government to pay for things. Working for something is important. Stealing or just taking is out of the question.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

only if you take the word "participating" in its most lax sense. Other people here seem to be able to grasp the gradations of the morality in questionr, it's not too hard.

I get pretty indepth in my discussions with people about music. A lot of times I play the music in question to be able to better illustrate the point being made. We might play The Division Bell followed by The Final Cut, for example, to better illustrate the differences between an album written by Roger Waters and one written by David Gilmour, while actively discussing those differences. I suppose I see your angle if you limit discussion of music to something as brief and noninvolved as "sup brah, you like dubstep?".

Few people have said they'd refuse to play with someone who uses recasts, outright.
Many people, including me, have said they have a problem with the idea of recasts - perhaps because it tends to encourage criminal behaviour, IP theft, penalises the store, or threatens to cut off supply of new designs - but would probably/possibly play with the oppo depending on his/her behaviour. .

There have only been a few people, but on the other hand, there have still been a few people. Your comment still assumes the fallacy that every recast is a lost sale. That's impossible to prove.

Morality is rarely binary; it certainly isn't in law. We can spot the gradations in killing someone - manslaughter, murder, premeditated murder, concealment of body, all these things attract varying opprobrium and varying sentences.

Otherwise you'll be saying that opening a factory and churning out millions of counterfeits, channeling the money into other gang activities, would be exactly the same as listening to a download in someone else's car. And no-one would be so stupid as to allege that.... would they?

I don't think so. I don't have a problem with any piracy, personally, and I say that as a software developer who's pursued patent applications. Given that the music cartel has leveled penalties against private citizens for "making available" that would normally be used for shops selling counterfeit for-profit, I'd say that they've established that equivalency in actions, if not in speech.

 Talizvar wrote:
For mail-order items my money would not contribute much of anything to North America since it is primarily a UK product.

It's not a UK product anymore. All books are from China now. I believe I even read the minis are coming from China now, so nothing is really coming from UK now. Would like to be corrected or confirmed.

 daedalus wrote:

I get pretty indepth in my discussions with people about music. A lot of times I play the music in question to be able to better illustrate the point being made. We might play The Division Bell followed by The Final Cut, for example, to better illustrate the differences between an album written by Roger Waters and one written by David Gilmour, while actively discussing those differences. I suppose I see your angle if you limit discussion of music to something as brief and noninvolved as "sup brah, you like dubstep?".

How does that add to the discussion?

There have only been a few people, but on the other hand, there have still been a few people. Your comment still assumes the fallacy that every recast is a lost sale. That's impossible to prove.

"Fallacy?" If you're stating it's a fallacy then you presumably have the evidence to prove it. Please enlighten us.

I don't have a problem with any piracy, personally, and I say that as a software developer who's pursued patent applications. Given that the music cartel has leveled penalties against private citizens for "making available" that would normally be used for shops selling counterfeit for-profit, I'd say that they've established that equivalency in actions, if not in speech.

Perhaps you're on a salary - if you were freelance, were working on a product, and someone took your work and sold it as their own, and then you applauded them, well, I'm impressed with your sharing nature, if not your commercial good sense.

As for the BS about copyright all being a "musical industry cartel," that's a tired old device - but one which the big new cartels, especially Google, love. No copyright anywhere, and you get to pay Google and the new digital landgrabbers to access your "free" content.

Davor wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
For mail-order items my money would not contribute much of anything to North America since it is primarily a UK product.

I believe I even read the minis are coming from China now, so nothing is really coming from UK now. Would like to be corrected or confirmed.

By minis do you mean the figures? Unless Lenton, Nottingham is in China, then you are indeed incorrect.

I think the minis used to be made in China but now production is back in the UK. I think.

Honestly, regardless of where it's manufactured, the "talent" is all UK based.

I use recasts but for me it's that GW have priced me out of large model purchases; the value just isn't there anymore. Sure, I have plenty of expendable income to buy any model that I like but I haven't played a game of 40k in several months and probably won't for at least several more. Honestly, the models I shared a pic of above will most likely never see a table.

Now, someone might say that I should just not participate in the game if I'm unwilling to fork out the highway robbery that GW charges to which I say "nuts". I've lived and traveled around the world extensively and can say that the Western concept of IP ownership is not universal nor does it ensure the continued existence of companies. As was mentioned earlier, if you're charging so much for a product that garage recasters are able to easily undercut you, you're likely charging too much.

In example, I, personally, value the Knights at about $50-$70. Ballpark esitmate and with a healthy knowledge of how business works, GW could charge this much and still make a tidy profit; instead they charge $120 or whatever it is because they expect to push less volume (self-fulfilling prophecy there). Oddly enough, you can easily find recasts of the knights for the $50-$70 range. Click. It seems almost as if the recasters know more about business economics than the people running a multi-national corporation.

I would play someone that recasts, or has recasts.

GW used to recast their own models, then use parts of the green mould and merge them with new sculpts, so many of their full price models were rip offs of things they had already spent time sculpting..

regardless of that with many people buying/trading models its not uncommon for someone to have a recast item and not even know it.