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 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

Killermonkey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

Hmm They would be "easier" to DS then charge if they survive and having multiple units can help them from getting over killed. and most things in CC with them generally wont survive.

As well they all get to has special issue wargear so can master craft away (IIRC)

Storm bolters never really did anything for me besides the psy type


OH also getting paladins to 5 can net you 2 special weapons. so they could get a bit more heavy gunnage. (but otherwise if they dont wont get any special weapons )

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

Hmm They would be "easier" to DS then charge if they survive and having multiple units can help them from getting over killed. and most things in CC with them generally wont survive.

As well they all get to has special issue wargear so can master craft away (IIRC)

Storm bolters never really did anything for me besides the psy type


OH also getting paladins to 5 can net you 2 special weapons. so they could get a bit more heavy gunnage. (but otherwise if they dont wont get any special weapons )

Well as far as heavy weapons; For a squad of 10 barebones termies with 2 psycannons you can get 6 barebones paladins with 2 psycannons. Given that CC weapons upgrades are the same and can be discounted in pricing, are the 4 extra bodies better? It's hard to say as you can give the paladins an apothecary that increases their lifespan by 33%, unless 1/3 of the time you are being killed with a str 8 or better gun, then it would be a wash. Seems like some play testing, or serious math hammer, might need to be done to determine the best option. At least its a discussion in this codex whereas in the last codex it was an obvious slam dunk choice of going to the paladins.

They can get Special Issue Wargear and have access to more Special Weapons.
Master-crafted and Digital Weapons seems nice, but I think it's too expensive.
Perhaps a Master-crafted Daemon Hammer to nearly guarantee that Vehicle to die?

I think Paladins could be useful for the Alpha-strike.
Turn 1:
Deep Strike them.
Shoot some dangerous crap down with two Psycannons.
Turn 2:
Deep Strike the Terminators without scatter (hidden Teleport Homer on Paladins)
Shoot more stuff down with Paladins and Terminators.
Let the Paladins charge into combat with S6 Force Swords, S7 Halberds or S10 Hammers.
Or even better! Deep Strike a Nemesis Dread Knight with them and see how it doesn't scatter!

Its defently a crap shoot as the second they get hit with a melta or las cannon they will start getting owned

But its 370 for a 10man double psycannon terminator squad
and 690 for a 10man quadruple master crafted psy terminator squad with FNP

Its less than half the price and half the models of 2 terminator squads with the same amount of wounds and FNP

They will output a bit more damage and survive a bit more small arms fire, but the second they get molested by St8 they start losing favor. (captain obvious)

Killermonkey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:


You only lose if at the end of game turn, not player turn, if you have no units on the table. You can indeed deploy nothing on the table and then pray that you hit at least a single 3+ reserve roll.

My real question now is this: Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted.

Well smaller unit sizes and double the wounds i feel are worth it. Though dont be silly and DS next to a bunch of meltas or a overcharging riptide

The smaller footprint size is indeed a good point. Still worth it even though the other termie adds 2 storm bolter shots and 2 attacks (3 if charging)?

It would be 4x attacks when charging if the Paladin squad has the Banner that Generates an extra attack, making a small unit of 6x have 24x attacks total.Paladins are good, but I feel that +22 points for them might be a bit to high, as the issue I see with that is that there is so much in this edition from other armies that can wipe out Paladins in a single shot or hurt them easily (Plasma, Melta, lascannons, Grav, etc). For me I think more bodies would be more worth it when it comes to deciding between Terminators and Paladins, but I am willing to try both and see how each of them fare.

The biggest thing I am debating however is if I should go with Strike Squads as my troop selection. They are a solid unit for there point cost, however I do like the idea of running terminators as my Troop choice and going with Purifiers, as Soul Blaze for the entire unit seems very strong and its not too expensive either. The new Force Organization will limit the number of Dreadknights we can use, however it's pretty cool that they are a lot cheaper then they used to be.

Grav cant single shot it???

From what i can tell you can just use the BRB Force org as well so can take 3 dreads and OS at the cost of T1 DS.

 Desubot wrote:
Its defently a crap shoot as the second they get hit with a melta or las cannon they will start getting owned

But its 370 for a 10man double psycannon terminator squad
and 690 for a 10man quadruple master crafted psy terminator squad with FNP

Its less than half the price and half the models of 2 terminator squads with the same amount of wounds and FNP

They will output a bit more damage and survive a bit more small arms fire, but the second they get molested by St8 they start losing favor. (captain obvious)

Yeah that makes sense.

I just ran some basic math hammer on a squad of 10 termies with 2 psycannons (370pts) and 6 paladins with 2 psycannons (370pts) and the math comes out on the side of the termies. They average 29% and 62% more wounds caused (with failed saves) in shooting against MEQ and GEQ, respectively. In CC against the same equivalents , it is 25% and 67% more wounds caused. This is while the paladins are only 20% more survivable against small arms fire. Against big guns, it obviously is less survivable.

I would say that the 33% apothecary survivability added offsets the inherent vulnerability vs str 8 when you are comparing them so I would maybe call that option a wash. So math tells me on a pt by pt basis, the standard termies are more efficient at dealing damage than paladins are at surviving.

I suppose mileage will vary though.

Edit: Ah, I forgot about the banners you can take which will force multiple your CC attacks out for a lower cost. That'll throw off my math if you are taking larger squads of paladins as they will be more efficient in CC in that case.

Yeah, I too forgot about the banner.
Personally I think a mix of both units would be the best option.
Paladins for the Banner and FNP with a hidden Beacon and perhaps the additional Special Weapons.
Terminators for the bodies.

At this point I feel as if a ADL/Bastion with Comms Relay is almost a must.

Dont forget the Master crafted

But it's sooo expensive :(
I would only take it on the one Daemon Hammer I happen to be fielding.
Remember that you can only make one weapon Master-crafted per model, so it's either melee or ranged.

Edit: Wouldn't it be time we bring this talk to Tactics?

its 10 to take a MC PC..

If i wanted to do well in combat id take a Priest or a terminator chaplain for hatred

Edit: Well its only a few days away till the book actually comes out

I am more likely to take Terminators over Paladins even with Draigo on the table. They still can get one shot with a S8 AP2 weapon all day long so the extra wounds don't come into effect there. Not to mention Grav is still a big opposition to a heavily armored infantry unit like Paladins and Terminators where those extra points would hurt instead of help.

Honestly, I am not changing up my list much, I am just adding the Terminators back into my list. A Librarian is definitely going to be my HQ but I don't know if I am going to include a second HQ in the form of a Brother Captain/Grand Master for the simple fact that I want a full 10 man Terminator squad that will be combat squaded so that means 10 GKSS, 10 Interceptors, 10 Terminators, 2 GKDKs, and a Librarian. I need to calculate that out though so I see what I am working with when it comes to points because I will throw in a Stormraven or a Grand Master.

So is Draigo now the only model in the entire codex that can take a stormshield? :p

So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

DaPino wrote:
So is Draigo now the only model in the entire codex that can take a stormshield? :p

Well to be fair only he and Crusaders could have them last time, and Crusaders are Henchmen. Inquisition should have never been in the Codex. And for the last few months the changes to the Psychic system have made a whole bunch of Psykers a must-take.

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

This makes me happy and is basically what I was envisioning when I saw the new rules and is virtually the way I want to build mine except I will have a GKSS. I like to keep the option open to take a Stormraven. Did you have anything on the table or did you start all in reserves? Also, does it look like Incinerators are going to be the new way to equip GKSS and Interceptors?

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

Congrats.

Did you shunt the NDK's and the Interceptors in turn 1 ?

My plan going forward is to have GK and SW allied together. Principally so I can put Purifiers in a SW drop pod (this can be done now, yay FA slot Drop Pod) so they also arrive turn one and can reliably use Cleansing Flame with as much target saturation as possible.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
My plan going forward is to have GK and SW allied together. Principally so I can put Purifiers in a SW drop pod (this can be done now, yay FA slot Drop Pod) so they also arrive turn one and can reliably use Cleansing Flame with as much target saturation as possible.

Strange, but true: Can embark on each other's Transport vehicles.
Thus from an SW ally detachment, GK has access to one Drop Pod.

Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

 Smotejob wrote:
Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

Well done.

I guess the deep strikers in turn 1 scatter normally, don't they.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

Well done.

I guess the deep strikers in turn 1 scatter normally, don't they.

This is my one concern. You can put a teleport homer on the Interceptors but since Reserves comes in first before you shunt, I don't know how worth it is to do it in the first place unless you deep strike the Interceptors in first and then everyone else afterwards. Deep striking in the shunters also has it so that shunt could be used later on to take out other targets.

Also, I know you took mostly Sanctic powers on the Librarian especially with that Relic let's him basically get all the powers that Sanctic allows, do you feel it was enough on the Terminators to get the +4 Invul save or would Invisibility still work better as a defensive option? I hate to say this but I play GK for fluffy reasons but taking Telepathy and Invisibility for pure tactical reasons but I have wanted to correct this so I could get the most out of my GK since they have the best access to the Sanctic powers. I have been going back and forth but I still feel that Invisibility is a better choice. The problem? Although being ML3 gives you a 50% chance of getting Invisibility, this is almost full proof to get Sanctuary which only costs 1 Warp Charge (Do you know how many times I have Periled because of the amount of dice I throw at Invisibility to make sure it goes off) plus you can get Gate of Infinity meaning more mobility and as you pointed out all the offensive powers like Cleansing Flame and if you want to try it, the dreaded Vortex of Doom. I am wondering if because that relic, it will change things around for what powers a GK Libby takes in favor of the assurance of getting virtually access to every single Sanctic power instead of the chance to get Invisibility.

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I ran a
Ml3 librarian with relic.

3x 5 man terminator squads 4 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon.

2x 10 man interceptor squads with incinerators and teleport homer

2x dreadknight w. Sword incinerator teleporter and heavy psycannon.


This went against his max broadside 3 riptide list which always does really well in the local tournament scene.

I have to say... our army got fast. I ended up knowing 5 of the powers on sanctic.


To keep the sorry short... he surrendered on turn 3 being almost tabled and what wasn't dead (which want much) was in cc with terminators. This was a rough hack at a first game.

Librarians are sexy as can be now and was so damaging

That is very good to hear

 Envihon wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Yes, I started the dk and interceptor squads in the board and shunned them up 1st turn. The librarian and terminators came in first turn. The combo of all 6 incinerators and psycannons, and the 3 offensive sanctic psychic powers going off killed almost all of his drones/fire warriors/pathfinders and a few broadsides (love str d blasts). He had 4 broadsides and all 3 riptides left going into his turn 1 and each other squad still alive only had 1 to 2 dudes left in it. 1 marker light provider lived after turn 1.

His turn he killed nearly all of one of my interceptor squads they pass leadership and stay around. (He was this damaged at this point)

Turn two my dks got force off and killed two riptides in cc. Finished off almost every infantry and everyone of his remaining broadsides were in cc. He had 1riptide free still that died turn 3 to a dk again.

Would to see how this does against the white scars list at my shop. It may not do as well as I feel it is better equipped to handle this army with those grav guns and his movement.

Well done.

I guess the deep strikers in turn 1 scatter normally, don't they.

This is my one concern. You can put a teleport homer on the Interceptors but since Reserves comes in first before you shunt, I don't know how worth it is to do it in the first place unless you deep strike the Interceptors in first and then everyone else afterwards. Deep striking in the shunters also has it so that shunt could be used later on to take out other targets.

Also, I know you took mostly Sanctic powers on the Librarian especially with that Relic let's him basically get all the powers that Sanctic allows, do you feel it was enough on the Terminators to get the +4 Invul save or would Invisibility still work better as a defensive option? I hate to say this but I play GK for fluffy reasons but taking Telepathy and Invisibility for pure tactical reasons but I have wanted to correct this so I could get the most out of my GK since they have the best access to the Sanctic powers. I have been going back and forth but I still feel that Invisibility is a better choice. The problem? Although being ML3 gives you a 50% chance of getting Invisibility, this is almost full proof to get Sanctuary which only costs 1 Warp Charge (Do you know how many times I have Periled because of the amount of dice I throw at Invisibility to make sure it goes off) plus you can get Gate of Infinity meaning more mobility and as you pointed out all the offensive powers like Cleansing Flame and if you want to try it, the dreaded Vortex of Doom. I am wondering if because that relic, it will change things around for what powers a GK Libby takes in favor of the assurance of getting virtually access to every single Sanctic power instead of the chance to get Invisibility.

Where I found interceptors useful was in combo with gate of infinity. I could put my Libby anywhere my interceptors could go each turn which made placing his nova and warp rift where I wanted it really nice. Other than that it is not worth on them. Strikes may be useful here as the first teleported units to hit the board for a little cheaper and hold everything in reserve and deep strike the entire army. But as it is, this army is going to be strong up against gun line type armies. Also thinking of starting with libby on board with purifiers and warp riftng them around (since libby will have 4 to 5 rolls on sanctic based on warlord trait which I got yesterday) could take libby against most armies and sacrifice primaris on sanctic for rolls else where one you get the powers you want.

Think I'll run something like this against my tau friend this weekend, to see how it goes

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I have:
1x Librarian - 160
3x Terminator - 236 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2x Dreadknight - 240 each
Total: 1888

Are you sure the list was correct?

That is the thing I am highly wondering with that Warlord trait plus the Relic: Domina Liber Daemonica you could get a lot of rolls on Sanctic. Since Banishment is everywhere in the GK codex on most units, you don't really need the Primaris so maybe it is useful to see what you get out of Telepathy and then use the other rolls to Sanctic but I do feel that Psychic Shriek is a little too good to let go to waste but putting all in Sanctic to get most of the powers, the Cleansing Flame can replace the Shriek and you will get with more assurance Sanctuary to help the Terminators tank shots.

I am kind of torn on this and will need to play a few games with the new rules to try out the different combos but I am definitely taking the Libby as my HQ, just don't know about the Grand Master quite yet.

Kangodo wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
So I made a list to run against my buddy's tau last night with the new leaked dex at 1750

I have:
1x Librarian - 160
3x Terminator - 236 each
2x Interceptor - 270 each
2x Dreadknight - 240 each
Total: 1888

Are you sure the list was correct?

I think Smot might have tabled his friend using the secret 10% more points-rule...
Absolutely the best rule in the new leaked GK codex!

I just realized, that unless I misread, The Teleport Homers work with Gate of Infinity because it uses the rules for Deepstrike. So you could 1st turn ds some units behind enemy lines with Teleport Homers, and the Librarian could bring in a 10-man Paladin squad without scatter on turn 2 near a surviving unit. That could be good, because it wouldn't trigger Interceptor because it isn't arriving from reserves.